Barbarian trait should allow stealing technology from razed cities

[Uberness]

The clan and doviello fall hopelessly behind in the tech race, they have alot of neat toys at the high end they never get to see, wouldn't it make sense if they razed a city above 2+ pop, they can take a technology they don't already know?

It rewards fighting more advanced civilizations, and adds some randomness to what they learn, fitting having chaos mana starting out, although it fits the clan more then doviello.

How hard would it be to implement?

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I have another idea. Maybe do not give them a handicap to research points but do not allow them to pick what they are reaserching. In MoO2 the races that were scienece-handicaped had they research tech chosen by random.

For Barbarians I propose to block for them the tech screen and choose techs by an AI [a random script of wages assigned to each tech or just the real game AI if it can be implemented that way]. The AI player would not be handicapped much and for player it would create a real challenge.

 

[Arctic Circle]

For an old Civ fan, and a little a historical enthusiast, it is totally natural for me to implement that -any- civilization can gain technologies by conquest. The barbarians need no advantages in this area, it would simply be their primary form of development instaed of sitting down and focusing on research.

Sure there is no mod somewhere that allready uses this, find it and if no-one else will - I will personally look into how hard it is to implement it as a mod. Perhaps Fall Further or Fall From Heaven can be talked into using it?

 

[Polycrates]

I really really like this idea, and not just because it reminds me of civ games past. It would be a fun mechanic to encourage more war against the civilised nations (if they needed any more incentive...) and just generally being bastards who aren't terribly concerned with the whole book-learnin' thing. It could be pretty damn powerful though, so the mechanics would have to be carefully chosen.
One possible idea: you only get the tech if you raze the city (not sure what the in-game justification would be for that - sack it for its secrets or something). Kinda brings back the Clan's old "can only raze" thing while still allowing for keeping important cities, fits well with the barbarism thing, and gives a couple of evil civs a quite strong incentive for acting in a way that raises the AC.
Anyway, I like!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I wouldn't mind seeing techs through conquest added, but probably as a modmod. There are already several mods that use this. I don't think it should be tied to the Barbarian trait.

Why should Razing help research? Logically it makes more sense to get the techs if you on;t raze, since you now rule over people who know how to use the techs and still have their tools with them.

 

[star_gazer]

If giving techs outright proves to be too strong, then how about awarding bulb credits towards techs? Lots of factors could influence how many bulbs are awarded - city size, trade routes, science level.

 

[xienwolf]

Here it is if you want to merge into FfH. Grave's Enhanced Tech Conquest MODCOMP

 

[Grand Seeker]

I would much rather see that the Barbarian treat gave 'no warwearness' but 'peace-weariness' instead. So you could war all night long, but be aware, your people will get bored in peace time.

I suggested this before, but I still think its a good take on the barbarian treat.

 

[blacknight]

I've long thought that a rubber band mechanic on tech progression would improve the game a lot (and is historically represented). What I am thinking is along the lines of, any civilization gains a +25% bonus towards researching any tech for each civilization they have contact with who already possesses that tech. Thus if you are the last of seven civs to get a certain tech, you get a +150% bonus to your research rate towards that particular tech. I think this would accurately represent "tech leak" since the hard thing is thinking of it the first time, copying is relatively easy, and the more you see the tech in action the easier it is.

 

[moverred]

I am a long time lurker, but the idea of getting the ability to grab techs on conquest, or at least beakers, is definitely deserving a vote of confidence. I don't play with the barbarian trait but it would certainly peak my interest and make the trait very cool. There would need to be a counter to it though just for balance reasons, and off the top of my head I think restricting them from trading techs would be an interesting idea, or maybe even not being able to trade anything at all. They are barbarians after all!

 

[KingOfLands]

Interesting idea. It'd get me to try Charadon instead of Mahala, and perhaps to try the Clan at all.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would much rather see that the Barbarian treat gave 'no warwearness' but 'peace-weariness' instead. So you could war all night long, but be aware, your people will get bored in peace time.

I suggested this before, but I still think its a good take on the barbarian treat.

I don't think that "peace weariness" would be a very good idea. It would be awfully hard to deal with for much of the game, especially if it counted for every civ with which you are at peace. Given how strong war weariness seems during protracted wars, this would be really crippling.

I'd much rather sea war weariness work in reverse, i.e., it should cause happiness instead of unhappiness for Barbarian trait civs.

 

[uberfish]

Use your civ strengths. Playing a barbarian civ you can always go pillage people to get cash allowing you to run a higher science slider. Getting tech on conquest would be horribly overpowered considering the glacial tech pace of FFH early game.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Use your civ strengths. Playing a barbarian civ you can always go pillage people to get cash allowing you to run a higher science slider. Getting tech on conquest would be horribly overpowered considering the glacial tech pace of FFH early game.

But it's quite easy to run 80-90% tech with a decent builder playstyle coupled with the right civics (GK for small empires, CS for large). Even at 100% slider the barbarian civs would still get screwed in the tech race due to a combination of the -10% and the lack of libraries.

 

[Dier]

Isn't the idea that the barbarian civs can build more cities early on? Just cottage a couple of those and tech pace shouldn't be that big a problem. I find the Clan in AI hands quite pesky as it is...

I like the rubber band mechanism that blacknight mentions, but isn't that in the game already? It might be nice to increase the numbers for barbarian civs, so they get the old stuff somewhat quicker than other civs, but please, not too quick.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I like the rubber band mechanism that blacknight mentions, but isn't that in the game already? It might be nice to increase the numbers for barbarian civs, so they get the old stuff somewhat quicker than other civs, but please, not too quick.

No. The barbarian state does get free techs based on what other civs know, but players don't get any research bonus based on what others know. There is at least one mod out there that allows for tech leaking though. I remember one where the number of required beakers decreases based on how many civ know the tech. It would probably not be that hard to borrow this for FfH.

 

[Arcite36575]

The clan and doviello fall hopelessly behind in the tech race, they have alot of neat toys at the high end they never get to see, wouldn't it make sense if they razed a city above 2+ pop, they can take a technology they don't already know?

It rewards fighting more advanced civilizations, and adds some randomness to what they learn, fitting having chaos mana starting out, although it fits the clan more then doviello.

How hard would it be to implement?

Not meaning to sound like a troll, but I strongly dislike this idea. The "barbarians" are supposed to be barbarians because they are culturally and technologically inferior to everyone else. That's why they are called "barbarians."

In history, it was very common for a civilization which conquered another to adopt some of another's culture and technology (the Greeks, Romans, etc). However, when the barbarians sacked Rome, they didn't say, "oooh, look at those pretty adqueducts, and the temple structures, and the effcient code of laws. We should do the same at our mud homes back in Gaul!" No. . ., they simply destroyed and looted what they could and moved on. Their military success (for a while) came because of their strength in numbers and personal bravery, not because of their "willingness to adapt" to other civilzations' good technogical advantages.

If anything, the nonbarbarian civs should get a chance to adopt a rival's civs technology once it conquer's a rival's city. However, I wouldn't do this because of balance reasons.

I agree that the barbarian civ's science penalty is a bit too much in this game for fun. I would, at the very least remove the -10% science penalty. Perhaps lower their war weariness more, or give them a money bonus when they sack a city.

 

[Alzara]

Not meaning to sound like a troll, but I strongly dislike this idea. The "barbarians" are supposed to be barbarians because they are culturally and technologically inferior to everyone else. That's why they are called "barbarians."

In history, it was very common for a civilization which conquered another to adopt some of another's culture and technology (the Greeks, Romans, etc). However, when the barbarians sacked Rome, they didn't say, "oooh, look at those pretty adqueducts, and the temple structures, and the effcient code of laws. We should do the same at our mud homes back in Gaul!" No. . ., they simply destroyed and looted what they could and moved on. Their military success (for a while) came because of their strength in numbers and personal bravery, not because of their "willingness to adapt" to other civilzations' good technogical advantages.

If anything, the nonbarbarian civs should get a chance to adopt a rival's civs technology once it conquer's a rival's city. However, I wouldn't do this because of balance reasons.

I agree that the barbarian civ's science penalty is a bit too much in this game for fun. I would, at the very least remove the -10% science penalty. Perhaps lower their war weariness more, or give them a money bonus when they sack a city.

I agree!

Al

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Not meaning to sound like a troll, but I strongly dislike this idea. The "barbarians" are supposed to be barbarians because they are culturally and technologically inferior to everyone else. That's why they are called "barbarians."

In history, it was very common for a civilization which conquered another to adopt some of another's culture and technology (the Greeks, Romans, etc). However, when the barbarians sacked Rome, they didn't say, "oooh, look at those pretty adqueducts, and the temple structures, and the effcient code of laws. We should do the same at our mud homes back in Gaul!" No. . ., they simply destroyed and looted what they could and moved on. Their military success (for a while) came because of their strength in numbers and personal bravery, not because of their "willingness to adapt" to other civilzations' good technogical advantages.

If anything, the nonbarbarian civs should get a chance to adopt a rival's civs technology once it conquer's a rival's city. However, I wouldn't do this because of balance reasons.

I agree that the barbarian civ's science penalty is a bit too much in this game for fun. I would, at the very least remove the -10% science penalty. Perhaps lower their war weariness more, or give them a money bonus when they sack a city.

Actually, they marched into the city and stayed there until it had paid an indemnity, largely because it had violated its neutrality in a conflict Brennus and his band had with another Italian city-state. Not much in the way of looting or pillaging, just an occupation. Then they went back to their wooden houses and their log roads and shaved and washed themselves with soap...

 

[smusebaer]

Every time you conquer a city a lot of buildings are destroyed.
Perhaps a bottom to prevent this would be nice.

And when you loot a libary, you get knowledge. So a city with libary could grant some researchpoints.