Barbarian Trait

[Fafnir13]

Just finished up my first Clan game in 34. Quite a lot of fun. I did notice a few things that seemed odd to me though, mostly stemming from how the barbarian trait is implemented. That's going to be the focus point of this little post.
It was about a 100-150 turns into the game when the Hippus decided I needed to be wiped out. That's all right, I was building a road towards them with the intention of ferying troops along it to conquer them anyways. Hadn't quite prepared the troops for it, but I had the good fortune of being near a goblin fort which ultimately led to me conquering not only the Hippus but also the neighboring Amurites thanks to my ragtag horde of poisonous goblins and warrened apprenticeship warriors. Unfortunately, my success at conquest meant that, before even turn 200 hit, I had already lost the barbarian trait. Not that this really mattered. I steamrolled my continent, populated it, then sent massive armies of mercenaries (I had 247 at game's end) and champions and other whatnot to conquer the rest of the world.
Still, it nagged at me that being successful at conquest, a rather barbaric thing to be engaging in, meant the barbarians stopped liking me and all I was left with was a penalty to science. The Clan has a double dose of trouble as their warren ability means they will have a good chance of out expanding everyone else too.
Ideally, some way to keep the barbarians on your side should be implemented. I think I once saw someone mention the idea of being able to build something like barbarian camps in your territory which would counteract some culture. Another good one would be the occasional razing of cities as being something else that keeps them on your side.
For the Clan specifically, casting For the Horde should also have some effect. Getting the barbarians to re-ally with you would be nice. Maybe even forcing them into a permanent alliance. They are all greenskins, after all.
Side note: I never did get around to casting my world spell in that game. Either my economy was treacherous enough without random units costing too much or there simply weren't enough barbarians around to make it at all worthwhile. I know, it's a very situational one which can have really good results when used early. Getting a goblin fort on another continent and using to for conquest is always fun. Just be nice if it had some other, lasting effects to go along with it. Same could be said about a lot of other world spells, but that's for another post.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

good post, I like your suggestion about for the horde re-granting peace with barbarians. and I agree that they should DoW you if you get too peaceful/cultured/good/whatever, not for being a good orc and killing everyone

 

[Sarisin]

An excellent post, Fafnir!

You did a great job of adjusting when you got too refined and cultured and the barbs turned on you. I don't play the civs with the Barbarian trait because I feel that cap on points is a nuisance to manage and I ALWAYS go over it...usually accidentally when another civ gets wiped out or something. I am seldom prepared like you were.

I think if there was an additional mechanism in the game that could enable you to regain this alliance with the barbs (an event, a wonder to build, a civic, whatever), I would certainly try the Clan or Charadon again. Otherwise, as you said all you are left with is that 10% hit to Research and a bunch of mad barbs who will likely select you as the Chosen One to target.

 

[Blakmane]

I used to have a mod which fixed this- unfortunately the fix requires changes to the DLL, so it's not easy to do. If there's enough interest I can make the mod again for the current version (I made it so the barbs declare war if you change your alignment from evil).

Not sure what the justification is on kael's side, but i've been blowing the horn on this one for a while with no response from him so I don't think it's high on the list of priorities.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it'd be interesting to check out your modmod Blakmane. definitely go for it if you are willing and have time to spare

 

[beauregard]

Possibility to regain the alliance with the barbarians? But why?

From your post (and my experience) it isn't like the Clan is underpowered. And when you hit the point threshold you are winning anyway, so what's the point?

Flavourwise, it also makes sense.
The Clan is one of several clans; it doesn't matter that they are all greenskins, because you could say likewise that Elohim, Hippus & Calabim are all humans, so they should go well together.
'Barbarians' on Earth (like in less-civilized, aggressive and usually nomadic tribes) usually started to fight among themselves after conquering something.

 

[Humakty]

I agree with Beauregard, and would add that the world spell can at least be used to have contact with every civ pretty early on, which can help much in the tech race.(if you don't disable tech trading)

 

[Fafnir13]

From your post (and my experience) it isn't like the Clan is underpowered. And when you hit the point threshold you are winning anyway, so what's the point?

Oh, they certainly aren't underpowered. I hope no one thought I was saying that. I'm afraid I even got rather spoiled by them, as once I started playing as the Calabim in another game I was, for some strange reason, expecting two workers to pop.
While I did have some specific ideas concerning the Clan, I would like barbarian trait looked at so that it can benefit all of it's users and the game as a whole. This is just one of those things that "works fine" but could be much better with a bit more work. As it is, any early game success will leave the barbarian trait player with nothing but a slight boost in their early expansion. Is this what all it's supposed to be?
With 34, barbarian players also gained the use of goblin forts. That is a great step in the right direction, but not enough by itself I would say. As with any feature, you can't depend on it from one game to the next. At the very least, expanding the mercenary opportunities would be nice. Lizardmen at ruins, skeletons at barrows, perhaps warriors at barbarian towns. Stuff like that would help to broaden the barbarian experience.
But, as I mentioned before, any early game success will just take that away. That's why I would like some built in ways to keep the barbarians on friendly terms other than monitoring my culture and not expanding.

 

[zup]

Agreed. I don't understand why the other orcs don't like the clan doing the exact same thing they are doing. Besides, the barbarian state is some mega alliance of all other orc clans. So there should be plenty of infighting. And the barbarians happily conquer everything they get their hands on. Only horsemen go on a razing frenzy.

 

[tharg]

good post, I like your suggestion about for the horde re-granting peace with barbarians.

I agree this would be a interesting idea. However in most cases this would not make much difference. If the player were still ahead the Barbarians would just declare on them again. So it would only be useful if the player had taken a setback. Which probably makes the suggestion reasonably balanced.

Also I guess the Barbarians could use the cultural rating rather than total points to decide whether to declare war.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still say that every civ in the game in underpowered.

 

[Fafnir13]

Agreed.

 

[deadliver]

How about if there was a civic that would cause you to go to war with the barbarians if you switched from it? Make it a version of god king (or just use god king with some fancified python). I mean come on, barbarian leaders should have a hard time ruling over a vast empire and force them to build courthouses, palaces etc. Eventually however you'll have to switch and BAM, guess who'll be waiting there for you.

Better yet, allow a small chance of barbarian uprisings throughout your empire! Oh yeah.

 

[deadliver]

Heh heh heh. Wow that was a good idea huh? Restricting civics due to Barbarian Trait...my mother just kissed BOTH my cheeks (my facial cheeks RLAF)

 

[heisenberg]

One good thing about the trait though... you never have to declare war against the barbarians in MP.
When you do get above half of your friend's score, the game almost has become a foregone conclusion that its sometimes best to just start another

 

[Imuratep]

I still say that every civ in the game in underpowered.

Absolutely, with the sole exception of Madame Keelyn and her hordes of Air Elementals...

 

[Blakmane]

It's not really important whether or not the points-based system is balanced or not, because it's just plain annoying. Sure you don't NEED the barbs if you are winning, but having to deal with them for what seems a completely arbitrary reason (and retaining the -10% research for no benefit) is frustrating.

I'm sick of VS 2005 so i'm downloading 2003. Once that is done i'll make the change and post the DLL/code.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Y'know, I think you should just lose the barbarian trait when the barbarians turn on you. Tit for Tat, as it were.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The change to when the barbs declare war does not involve the DLL. It is a simple python change: Just remove

		if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_BARBARIAN')):
			eTeam = gc.getTeam(gc.getPlayer(gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER()).getTeam())
			iTeam = pPlayer.getTeam()
			if eTeam.isAtWar(iTeam) == False:
				if 2 * CyGame().getPlayerScore(iPlayer) >= 3 * CyGame().getPlayerScore(CyGame().getRankPlayer(1)):
					if iGameTurn >= 20:
						eTeam.declareWar(iTeam, false, WarPlanTypes.WARPLAN_LIMITED)
						if (iPlayer == CyGame().getActivePlayer() and pPlayer.isHuman()):
							cf.addPopup(CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_POPUP_BARBARIAN_DECLARE_WAR",()), 'art/interface/popups/Barbarian.dds')

from def onBeginPlayerTurn(self, argsList): in CvEventManager.py if you want to get rid of it.

If you just want to loose the trait when you loose the peace, then add CyMessageControl().sendApplyEvent(5013, EventContextTypes.EVENTCONTEXT_ALL, (iPlayer,gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_BARBARIAN'),False)) right after the eTeam.declareWar() line.

 

[Blakmane]

oh wow, that's a bonus. The code must've been moved from the vanilla civ version? Last time I fiddled with the barb trait it took C++ and compiling. That makes things significantly easier.

This is the code I used to make barbs declare war when you change alignment, if anyone wants it. Just replace the relevant lines in CvEventManager with these. You can find the position by just searching for the word 'barbarian'.

if pPlayer.hasTrait(gc.getInfoTypeForString('TRAIT_BARBARIAN')):
			eTeam = gc.getTeam(gc.getPlayer(gc.getBARBARIAN_PLAYER()).getTeam())
			iTeam = pPlayer.getTeam()
			if eTeam.isAtWar(iTeam) == False:
				if pPlayer.getAlignment() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('ALIGNMENT_GOOD') or pPlayer.getAlignment() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('ALIGNMENT_NEUTRAL'):
					if iGameTurn >= 20:
						eTeam.declareWar(iTeam, false, WarPlanTypes.WARPLAN_LIMITED)
						if (iPlayer == CyGame().getActivePlayer() and pPlayer.isHuman()):
							cf.addPopup(CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_POPUP_BARBARIAN_DECLARE_WAR",()), 'art/interface/popups/Barbarian.dds')