Barbatos Info?

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King
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Is there any information floating about for Barbatos? I know he was the mage that Kylorin taught in Death magic and that he was locked away in the Broken Sepulcher after being defeated. I was thinking of switching my modmod civilization to use him as the leader instead of D'Tesh (still not too sure about that), but I'd like to know a little more about him.
 
Hmm.. nothing I can thing of. He's probably the most powerful necromancer int he world except for Kylorin (assuming hes still about) and Tuoni (who technically isnt a necromancer but does have the ability to tap into and control god levels of death magic).
 
And of course he's not at all bad at Earth magic either.
 
"Assuming he's still about"! No you can't just kill off my favorite suicidal archmage. If he is to go down it has to be spectacular.

No wait, he could have left the world and not died. But then again would he leave Eve/Epona even if he had his obsession under control.

If he were to die, which angel's vault would he go to? Nantosuelta's?
 
Hmm.. nothing I can thing of. He's probably the most powerful necromancer int he world except for Kylorin (assuming hes still about) and Tuoni (who technically isnt a necromancer but does have the ability to tap into and control god levels of death magic).


So are you saying that Kyorlin was a greater Necromancer than Barbatos? I prefer to think that his students' extreme specialization would have made (several, if not most or all of) them be greater than their teacher in their specific spheres, but still much weaker overall as he is a master of everything.


If he is to go down it has to be spectacular.

How do you know he didn't already meet a spectacular demise? It is entirely possible that he perished just as he struck the final blow against Mulcarn. The way the Godslayer works in the game you don't have to survive to defeat an Avatar.


If he were to die, which angel's vault would he go to? Nantosuelta's?

I'm not sure which vault Kyorlin would go to. If he had dies before repenting his soul would certainly be Ceridwen's. Nantosuelta is probably the best bet if he went to a heaven, but most just end up in the Netherworld like most souls do.

Although his people are represented by the metamagic sphere and he surely is the greatest lore master around (as he witnessed most of this forgotten lore as it was happening), his defining characteristic is his relationship with Eve/Epona. I'm pretty sure that this obsession would drawn his soul to Ceridwen. Although never explicitly stated, I believe that the Dimensional Sphere is primarily about the emotional bonds that tie us together. These bonds are an important part of any relationship, but since she is corrupt they often turn into obsession, codependency, and defining the worth of one's self and of other purely through relationships (including romances, rivalries, positions of power, etc) instead of recognizing intrinsic worth. This dehumanizes oneself and makes one objectify everyone else, and leads to depression and desperation when the bonds are threatened. Nantosuelta (who I believe is the goddess of marriage in addition to enchantment) also deals with relationships, but she is more about the charms of enjoying each other's company. Kyorlin had to learn the hard way that obsession is destructive, and that the looser bonds of friendship and love without thinking one one's position in life or the nature of one's relationships is a much better way of building up one's relationships. However, the degree to which he was still driven by an obsession over his guilt indicates that Ceridwen probably still hold some sway.



Of course, if he were in the Netherworld then we'd absolutely need to have a major showdown between the vanquished Kyorlin and Laroth. Kyorlin killed Laroth last time, but if they are both dead that can't exactly happen again. Given how responsive the Netherworld is to souls affected by spirit magic and how much longer Laroth has had to prepare he may have a significant advantage, plus a strong desire for revenge. This battle would be a close one, perhaps reminiscent of the fight with Perpentach, except Kyorlin wouldn't be able to simply break previously placed the bonds in Laroth's mind to disorient him. They also can't actually kill each other, so the battle would be long and epic. If Kyorlin's will could be subverted, then Laroth might just have the strength he needs to take down Arawn and become the new God of Death. How does giving Kyolin two spectacular demises sound? (Hmm..I just started picturing a scenario where Kyorlin loses an epic battle to Laroth and has his soul crafted into a weapon used to defeat Arawn, but just as Laroth is about to claim godhood Tuoni shows up and manages to defeat him and claim godhood for himself by exploiting some key wound left by Kyorlin. Tuoni then becomes a god and promptly decides to break the compact and enter Creation to kill everyone, but is defeated by Auric Ascended, perhaps in a battle where both one-mortal gods are finally destroyed.)



I think we still need to know what happened to Eve. Is she still being reborn? (I could see Ceridwen's curse actually only lasting so long as Kyorlin lives, or binding her to be reborn in whatever plane he is in, even if he never realizes this until he dies.) Is she a character in the game?
 
So are you saying that Kyorlin was a greater Necromancer than Barbatos? I prefer to think that his students' extreme specialization would have made (several, if not most or all of) them be greater than their teacher in their specific spheres, but still much weaker overall as he is a master of everything.

The only evidence I have of this either way is a battle between Perpentach and Kylorin in the Age of Magic. Basically Perpentach had sealed himself off inside his fortress and anyone that came in after him was quickly dominated and killed or used in whatever fashion Perpentach preferred.

Kylorin himself called the revolutionaries away from the fortress and went in to fight Perpentach. Kylorin saw through Perpentachs games and resisted his spells, eventually dragging Perpentach out of the fortress by the bells on his pointy hat.

So I dont know what that says about who is better. As you know we've had a lot of questions about who is tougher, and I never really thought about those things. Kylorin and Barbatos never had a necro contest.
 
I was under the impression that Perpentach had nearly defeated Kyorlin? Didn't you say that Perpantach had entered Kyorlin's mind, incapacitated him, held him in a stalemate for a long time, and then nearly destroyed him entirely until Kyorlin managed to break his concentration by breaking down the barriers he personally had set up in the young Perpentach's mind and letting all the voices of those previously dominated free?

(I personally prefer to think that the most recent copy of Kyorlin within Perpentach's mind broke down the barriers, and that the real Kyorlin has no idea how he managed to get out of there alive.)

Bells of his pointy hat? I didn't think that Perpentach started playing the jester until The Momus and his carnies found him and helped him escape from the prison where Kyorlin placed him after his defeat. I picture him as nearly humorless, cold and calculating character when Kyorlin's mental barriers were still in place.


I tend to think that mastery of Sun magic would be more useful in seeing though Perpentach's illusions than Mind magic would. (I also like to think an old Sun magic curse placed on him by Kyorlin is why he has a compulsion to always tell the truth and keep his word, even though he usually manages to distort things that are literally correct and make everyone wish he wouldn't take things so literally.) I still prefer to think that Kyorlin's couldn't stand up to many of his students he he was restricted to using only their sphere of expertise, but that he could use other spheres (perhaps combining them for greater effect) to more than make up for this. Frankly, using the same sphere would be rather stupid: why would you want to fight Fire with Fire if you could fight Fire with Water?
 
I was under the impression that Perpentach had nearly defeated Kyorlin? Didn't you say that Perpantach had entered Kyorlin's mind, incapacitated him, held him in a stalemate for a long time, and then nearly destroyed him entirely until Kyorlin managed to break his concentration by breaking down the barriers he personally had set up in the young Perpentach's mind and letting all the voices of those previously dominated free?

(I personally prefer to think that the most recent copy of Kyorlin within Perpentach's mind broke down the barriers, and that the real Kyorlin has no idea how he managed to get out of there alive.)

Not that I remember. Perpentach used those he had dominated (some of whom were Kylorin's close allies) against Kylorin. Forcing him into the painful position of killing his old friends, which Kylorin did (Kylorin wasnt able to simply dispel the control so I guess at some level they were relatively close in power).

Bells of his pointy hat? I didn't think that Perpentach started playing the jester until The Momus and his carnies found him and helped him escape from the prison where Kyorlin placed him after his defeat. I picture him as nearly humorless, cold and calculating character when Kyorlin's mental barriers were still in place.

That I was joking about the hat. Perpentach was an odd, ackward and socially inept child growing up. It wasnt until Kylroin recognized his talent and began to train him that he started to become something greater, though he was always unsettling and not very personable (at least without magic).

I tend to think that mastery of Sun magic would be more useful in seeing though Perpentach's illusions than Mind magic would. (I also like to think an old Sun magic curse placed on him by Kyorlin is why he has a compulsion to always tell the truth and keep his word, even though he usually manages to distort things that are literally correct and make everyone wish he wouldn't take things so literally.) I still prefer to think that many of Kyorlin's couldn't stand up to some of his students he he was restricted to using only their sphere of expertise, but that he can use other spheres (perhaps combining them for greater effect) to more than make up for this.

And thats all fair to think. I dont have D&D sort of stats for these characters. Just the legends of what happened. So its all pretty open.
 
Perpentach's 'Pedia Entry said:
Some call him The Laughing Man, or the Momus, or the Jack of Tears. Whatever he's called, the King of the Balseraphs has held court at the dark heart of Jubilee for at least two centuries, and there is evidence he occupied this land before the Age of Ice, though perhaps in a different form. He has since grown mighty on the power of the blood of captured slaves.

Yet the Laughing Man is not a mere menace to be feared and destroyed. Mad, capricious, and deadly being that he is, he also possesses a certain gallows humor, a fondness for bravery and honesty, and a seemingly insuperable compulsion to keep his word (though he is fond of using tricks and the subtleties of language to keep from being locked into any agreements).

All alone. Just him and four walls. Again.

"You know you weren't in jail back then, dear boy," Sister Serisa told him. "The Sisterhood of Sirona took care of you, as best we could. The Asylum was unpleasant, perhaps, but it wasn't like this. You were starving when we took you in, starving and wandering the street conversing with your long dead parents."

"She tried to keep us away from you, Perpentach. Locked us all away, told you we wouldn't always be there with you." His mother reached out her arms to him.

"You aren't mad, child," Kylorin, his savior, told him. "You're a magical savant, a person with exceptional talent. Talent for mind magic in your case. The Asylum was proof of that. Almost three hundred patients were dead of neglect, because the entire sisterhood is enthralled by your every whim. I could use power like that."

His teacher paced the small cell. "Magic always has an effect on those who use it, I've found, especially the unprepared. Your power brought a terrible price upon you—a copy of those in whose heads you trespassed, residing in your own mind. This was the source of your madness. When I found you, I locked this part of your mind away using your own power."

"That's not all you did," said the older Kylorin to his young apparition. "You traded madness for wickedness. We were too power-mad to notice how corrupted you were, my son. I'm sorry I had to do this to you."

"Corrupted? You betrayed us, and everything we worked for!" The younger Kylorin pushed the elder against the cold stone wall of Perpentach's cell. "I would have been proud of what Perpentach was able to accomplish!"

"Proud? Gods, I killed Gastrius for less than the atrocity Perpentach committed."

Gastrius leaned in over his mentor's shoulder to add, "But you couldn't kill Perp. He was stronger than you, the strongest of us all. He almost killed you, the great and powerful Kylorin—self-righteous traitor."

The elder Kylorin pushed free, turned away from the crowd. "The evil he did... it wasn't his fault though, it was ours. But I had to stop him. So I let us out. His greatest weakness, at a critical moment, when he nearly overcame me, I undid the protection I had once applied, and that rush of madness was enough. And now we're in here, alone with you. Maybe I should end your sad life once and for all."

"You stay back!" shouted his mother.

Perpentach found being alone with his thoughts too crowded. He fell to the floor, covering his ears and screaming in an attempt to find peace. It was in vain, and desperately he set out his mind in search of others, of some firmament in the sea of his madness. Kylorin had not made the mistake of underestimating him again—there were no human settlements for many miles of his prison, a sunken tower deep in swampland. Every night he searched for any thought, any glimmer of sentient life, until he passed out.

"I swear, you'll drag us to the ends of Patria before you find Kurias, Balmaflu." The speaker was just at the edge of Perpentach's perception, and moving away. A glimmer of hope alit in Perpentach's mind, a wild plan. As he felt the travelers slipping away, he jumped over to this man's mind. His connection to his own body wavered, almost completely broken; back in the cell the mage collapsed to the ground.

"I hear the river," Balmaflu replied, "I'm sure it runs west—Momus, are you alright?" The leader of their troupe leader had gone pale, stopping his wagon abruptly.

"I—we must return..." The Momus was filled with a great unease. Perpentach was desperate to return to his body; hiding in another's mind he was cut off from most of his power. But he needed more than this small theatre troupe to overcome the mindless golems between him and freedom. So he would bide his time... let these fools lead him to a town.

The Momus shook his head. "I'm sorry, my friend... for a moment my thoughts were not my own, as they say. But let us hurry, this marsh gives me ill-feelings."

Rork sought his daughter. She should have returned with the milking. He found her in the field, being dragged away by wolf. Rork grabbed a pitchfork and chased after the wolf. It stayed just out of reach, but he wouldn't give up the chase if it cost him his life, so dear was his daughter.

So hated was the constable's cousin. So beautiful was the blacksmith's love. So valuable was the goods stolen from the mayor's son.

By the time the performers were in sight of the village, they could see the mob marching their way, each person chasing its own demon. The Momus was nearly passed out due to all the energy Perpentach had drained from him to power his illusions. He managed to rasp out "Follow the crowd... back to the swamp..."

Many of the villages fell to the assault on the golems. Many had fallen along the way, incapable of the three day march back to the prison. In the end enough survived to free Perpentach. None were forgotten, however. A great multitude joined the crowd inside his mind, but Perpentach learned there were more ways to survive madness than hiding from it. He embraced it, mastering the minds within his mind, ruling both a small fiefdom far from Kylorin's fire, and a grand multitude in the courts inside his mind.



I couldn't find a specific post by you to substantiate my version, but the civilopedia seems to agree with it even if I unknowingly embellished a little on Kyorlin's exact position when he was nearly overcome.


I still like to think Perpentach really was the strongest mage of the age of magic, that he had at least briefly controlled his master and all of his peers, that he took over as the new Emperor of Patria when Kyorlin betrayed his students, and that he was defeated from within by the copy of Kyorlin that was speaking there and not by the real archmage outside his head, who had just briefly given in to Domination when he woke up to find Perpentach stark raving mad and powerless to defend himself. He probably could have peered into his student's mind at this point to find out how he won, but would you risk that? I like to think Kyorlin still has no clue as to how he won that battle, and perhaps chose to lock Perpentach up because he thought that there must still be some good in him, some part that wanted to repent and to join Kyorlin in making things right, but just needed some time to clear his head first.
 
Thats a good story, I think NK wrote that. I agree with you that that's what the story is trying to say so you are right. Though Im still not sure what that says about relative mastery of their spheres between the students and Kylorin. I guess they are in the same range.
 
If my vote counts for anything (and it doesn't) I would say MC's description is the best way for Perp to have gone down.
 
Interesting that Kylorin ended up having to imprison instead of kill at least two of his students.

Another thing, is the spell Lichdom considered evil and require the death of innocents and much like the D&D version or is it just a very powerful spell without any sort of "alignment issues"? I think that it probably has similarities to the spell that vampires use to drain life, in the same way that Warhammer Vampires are a result of the greatest necromancer to ever live. This would probably make it evil in the "few over the many" way.
 
Interesting that Kylorin ended up having to imprison instead of kill at least two of his students.

Another thing, is the spell Lichdom considered evil and require the death of innocents and much like the D&D version or is it just a very powerful spell without any sort of "alignment issues"? I think that it probably has similarities to the spell that vampires use to drain life, in the same way that Warhammer Vampires are a result of the greatest necromancer to ever live. This would probably make it evil in the "few over the many" way.

From what I gather, it's basically neutral. The only cost of lichdom goes to the caster; loss of all the physical joys involved in living. But there's no sacrifice in game.
Lore-wise, the spell may be fueled by dead souls, of course, or may require a negligible sacrifice...
 
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