barbs need an early naval unit

[Tekamthi]

this suggestion is made to close up a fave strategy of mine, so I won't be upset if its not actioned, but poly has some serious human-favoring exploits available to it via its current UA and UU mix. One of these in a slower speed game is to roam around the ocean for a number of turns off the start to find the perfect capital spot, while doubling settler as a 3-move scout to look for coastal ruins. Even on raging barbs there are no barb boats for a long time and poly can just roam around coast and ocean untouched for many turns. On the large maps the goody hut yields offset everything poly misses out on, as long as its not done too late.

To fix this, barbs need an early boat. it can be a coast-only boat, and fairly weak, it just needs to be able to capture an unprotected embarked poly settler. Have all the available art models been implemented? There used to be a raft of some kind, idk if its in use w/ 4uc update

edit: as others have pointed out, the early settler-in-water play is overshadowed by the advantage that poly recon enjoy via their UA, also by being able to roam freely in water -- I mis-stated the motivation here but nonetheless maintain that a barb boat is a good gameplay-based fix to imbalanced play

 

[usadefcon1]

If it's a human only exploit then just don't do it.

 

[Tekamthi]

An early barb boat would not close the door just make it reasonably more similar to the experience of other players. It's a valid play just too easy, at the very least human looking for advantage in this way should have to pair settler with one of the combat units

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Plus it would be realistic. The unit would be pirates.

 

[Tekamthi]

if its a melee boat it won't really affect anyone else on-land besides the early pathfinder voyages in coast, but those would just become a little more interesting, not impossible. Or, an early 1-range boat could increase the utility of slingers (i never build slingers) & change up the dynamic of early coastal plots

the unit art i had in mind is

Have we used it for something else already? 4uc perhaps?

 

[msw1]

Seems more like a unique strategy for Polynesia than an exploit. Why should barbarians have discovered sailing before every other civilization in the world?

 

[Tekamthi]

humans have been travelling across water on rafts for like 50k years -- poly itself illustrates that some could figure it out before others.

anyway barbs are a threat to all players' settlers except poly. having an early barb boat just evens it up for all

 

[Alpakinator]

If it's a human only exploit then just don't do it.

Ignoring an exploit isn't good for long-term quality of CBP. Cause it means most balancing decisions can become meaningless if most civs have a broken strat that guarantees victory, like that polynesia strat. That said, changing the game to counter each situationally OP strategy can be bad, if it affects the game negatively. This proposal is good, cause it won't do that.

But maybe it's too situational to requre a fix. It requires a large island map on epic/ marathon. Similarly, Inca automatically win on highlands, Iroquis on Arborea, Mongols on Pangaea maps with max amount of CS etc. and I wouldn't adjust the game to limit these civs.

 

[msw1]

humans have been travelling across water on rafts for like 50k years -- poly itself illustrates that some could figure it out before others.

anyway barbs are a threat to all players' settlers except poly. having an early barb boat just evens it up for all

But humans traveling on rafts would be an embarked unit, not a battle ship with a sail.

 

[andersw]

Isnt the better option to just play with huts off?

 

[Tekamthi]

But humans traveling on rafts would be an embarked unit, not a battle ship with a sail.

could an axeman not throw an axe from a raft?

Isnt the better option to just play with huts off?

this is franchise staple... if we can normalize a single odd duck via gameplay means, w/o materially affecting others... is this not preferable?

anyway can be modded in if its distasteful, assuming the art is free -- anyone know about that art model? it still sitting unused in the mainstream vp stuff? what model will the new vaka nui be using, for example?

 

[CppMaster]

Isnt the better option to just play with huts off?

No.

 

[randomnub]

slower speed game

Game can't be balanced on no-standard settings.

large maps

Same as above.

poly can just roam around coast and ocean untouched for many turns

Yeah I thought that was supposed to be their UA.

human-favoring exploits

I genuinely think this is part of the fun involved in playing Polynesia but you can always refrain yourself from doing it. I don't even think it's worth delaying too much with the settler while both it and the warrior can't trigger the ruins, and if you're not rerolling the start (that's a worse human only exploit) you can't even be sure to find a great spot for Honolulu either.

 

[Tekamthi]

I genuinely think this is part of the fun involved in playing Polynesia but you can always refrain yourself from doing it.

I mis-stated the case slightly in op in that we're looking to tighten up a semi- exploit that ai cannot access whatsoever into the normal parameters of gameplay ie settlers have to watch out for barbs -- rather than eliminate said exploit altogether.

Game can't be balanced on no-standard settings

Same as above

False. Suggestion would accomplish both with no detrimental effect (beyond perhaps some players' sense of thematic ideals re: rafts, and the dev legwork involved to configure the db)

Remember that "hard balance donut" guy we all laughed at a few years ago? Same reasoning to these comments. Can indeed balance for other map settings, it's just trickier than focusing a single setting

VP follows standard-setting-first design, perhaps, but certainly not standard-setting-only

Yeah I thought that was supposed to be their UA.

Where does it say in poly ua that starting settler is immune to barbarians. Ua is early water access. VP happens to put nothing in ocean or coast early on, but that absence is not a design element of poly ua

 

[randomnub]

poly has some serious human-favoring exploits

a semi- exploit

Good, the exploit is already looking less scary.

Where does it say in poly ua that starting settler is immune to barbarians.

Nowhere, because it is not. Embarking and disembarking is already costing you two turns and the remaining moves, and the settler has to be escorted by the warrior who could be on the lookout for cs/neighbours or it risks being sniped by some barbarian hiding behind terrain/fog of war before it can settle the capital. If you're challenging yourself with no reloads and a record time for finishing the game then you can't gamble too much on ruins/terrain/barbarians.and losing too many turns while looking for the perfect spot. If you're playing for fun, at a slower speed on big maps with a lot of water, with a civ that is good at early water exploration... then this discussion is moot.

Now let pretend this suggestion passes.
Having barbarians spawn pre-fishing melee naval units would fill the waters with useless units only to counter a so called exploit from a civ that possibly isn't even in game, instead of spawning more useful units. I think this would put the game in a worse state than it is now.

 

[Tekamthi]

settler has to be escorted by the warrior

no it doesn't -- thats the whole point of the op suggestion. In status quo poly starts with 3 units than can see extra far, and if 2 of them are put in the water, they are better at scouting than default recon. There is no threat in the water til well after the late-capital-found strat is actually viable. The only chance of losing settler is when landing to settle finally, IFF there are inland barbarians in-range. I've had it happen once ever when playing this strategy (and i still founded a pantheon while on way to rescue settler and ctd'd the game lol) -- but this was anomally.

In my last 3 games doing this i was first to get religion even tho i founded poly capital on turn ~20-25 on epic speed. You can knock this back to maybe turn 15 on standard but it still works, and is very easy cuz there's next to no chance of losing settler. On marathon I once went to turn 60 and still got 2nd religion and a few wonders.

it was suggested to turn goodies off -- this is not a desireable direction but there is perhaps a solution there on reflection -- if every map spawned the same amount of goodies whether big or small, then this poly strat would not scale exponentially on the larger maps. The early cruising around in the water would still be untouched, but the yields that permit this would be slightly restrained. Even on standard tho poly should be getting like 5x the goodies of everyone else, unless there's no ocean rifts

pre-fishing melee naval units would fill the waters with useless units

this is true -- plus the first unit in tech tree is melee -- would have to be ranged unit imo

a civ that possibly isn't even in game

i believe this could be configured to only spawn when poly is in-game if desired. that said its not the normal way things are configured.

In any case it sounds like the art remains unused, will look to trial something to this effect in next mb+ revision

 

[randomnub]

I think you're overstimating the possibility to relocate your capital, when the true advantage Poly has in the early game is the amount of ancient ruins it pops especially on large/water maps.

If you settle T0-T2 instead of wating T25-60 on those speeds, you still grab the same amount of ruins, probably more because the capital can build/buy more scouts earlier, and snowball better rather that focusing on putting the capital on some perfect spot where you should instead settle the first expansions, and as Poly you can churn out settlers quicker if you grab pop ruins that would otherwise be switched to different rewards.

 

[Tekamthi]

you're only thinking of part of poly's kit -- poly more than any other civ also should be choosy about settling spot to maximize moai -- you cruise around looking for optimal moai location, the ruins found are just a bonus. another bonus: maybe 1/3 of the time you find NW in the turns allowable for late-found. AND you often pick a spot where you can't be attacked for 1st half of the game so you can live off like 1 military unit til renaissance

 

[Bison]

I don't really like the idea of more barbarian boats to deal with. Couldn't this just be fixed by not allowing the first poly settler to not embark since it's not something the AI will ever do? And it's considered an exploit?
Reasoning is they can't make sturdy boats that can carry enough population or building materials to found a city before the regular coast embark tech.

 

[Tekamthi]

I imagine we'll have a broader discussion about poly kit design at some point... Maybe staging their embark access is a solution to how they handle.

I'd rather keep the water access though, at least in coast, and that'll still leave their settler untouchable in the early turns. Disabling it for just the starting settler strikes me as kinda gamey, but maybe worth considering as part of broader poly package.

In theory any modded civ could have some water access however, and thus enter this void of gameplay off the start. It's just very empty feeling, unfinished.

Beyond gameplay reasons, there's a bit of a thematic question mark when it comes to the barbs, isn't there? Initially they don't have boats and can't embark... So how is it they're able to get to all those little islands? Was Moses a barbarian?