[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Carthage - Asamu instead of Tophet

[Hinin]

Current :

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture
65 Production cost
+1 Culture, +2 Faith
Gain +20 Culture whenever a Unit is purchased, scaling with Era.

Proposal :
Replace the Tophet with the Asamu.

Unique Civilian - Asamu (unique UnitClass)
Doesn't replace the Settler
Upgrades into Pioneer

Unlocked at Pottery (like the Settler
Becomes obsolete at Banking (upgrades into Pioneer
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold (cost increased with number of Cities) and can move immediatly once purchased => Cost = 200 Gold + 100 x (n - 1), with n the number of Cities in the Empire, scaling with GameSpeed
Only one can exist at the same time => you must expend the existing one to purchase another (prevents purchase exploits)
Does not consume Citizens when purchased

2 MP / 2 Vision

Can Embark

Can be expended to found a City. When founding a City, provides a free Lighthouse.

Rationale :

With its new UA that grants Gold and Science whenever the quantity of Luxury Resources in the empire increases, Carthage is more than ever geared towards the idea of fast expansion in the early game in order to take control and improve as many resources as possible. Moreover, the XP on unit purchase, previously the main appeal of the Tophet, is now part of the UA and the Tophet is now only providing Culture on purchase, which lacks interactivity imo.

With this new Unique Civilian, Carthage gets a way to directly converts the vast quantities of Gold its can gain through its UA into further expansion, and without the usual Production and Food costs related to creating Settlers. To counterbalance this, it also means that Carthage is more dependent on Gold than any other Civilization in the early game : between investing into Buildings to not suffer too much from overexpansion, purchasing Units to defend new Cities that will undoubtedly anger neighboring civilizations, and the necessity to accumulate Gold for new Cities later, this civilization will have to play its economic game well or lose much of the gains it can get in the early game.

The Cost of the Unit and its increase will surely be debated, as will be the free Lighthouse it provides in this first version of the proposal. About the Lighthouse, the idea is to still push the civ towards having a water empire first and foremost. It will also allow the civ to gain back Gold (which compensate the high cost increase of the Asamu after the first few Cities) after the settled Cities have grown a bit.

Edit : After discussions, lowered the cost increase for the Asamu.

Edit 2 : Made the Asamu not replace the Settler anymore (for more flexibility). In exchange, it is now unlocked at Pottery with the Settler instead of Agriculture.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I like both the Tophet and the Asamu. I would rather give up the Suffet for the Asamu. While the Suffet is a very unique design, it would not feel as much a nerf as losing the Tophet would be. It's a damn strong building.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Current :

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture
65 Production cost
+1 Culture, +2 Faith
Gain +20 Culture whenever a Unit is purchased, scaling with Era.

Proposal :
Unique Civilian - Asamu (replaces Settler)
View attachment 694010
Unlocked at Agriculture (instead of Pottery)
Becomes obsolete at Banking (upgrades into Pioneer
Cannot be produced
Must be purchased with Gold (cost increased with number of Cities) and can move immediatly once purchased => Cost = 200 Gold + 200 x (n - 1), with n the number of Cities in the Empire, scaling with GameSpeed
Only one can exist at the same time => you must expend the existing one to purchase another (prevents purchase exploits)
Does not consume Citizens when purchased

2 MP / 2 Vision

Can Embark

Can be expended to found a City. When founding a City, provides a free Lighthouse.

Rationale :

With its new UA that grants Gold and Science whenever the quantity of Luxury Resources in the empire increases, Carthage is more than ever geared towards the idea of fast expansion in the early game in order to take control and improve as many resources as possible. Moreover, the XP on unit purchase, previously the main appeal of the Tophet, is now part of the UA and the Tophet is now only providing Culture on purchase, which lacks interactivity imo.

With this new Unique Civilian, Carthage gets a way to directly converts the vast quantities of Gold its can gain through its UA into further expansion, and without the usual Production and Food costs related to creating Settlers. To counterbalance this, it also means that Carthage is more dependent on Gold than any other Civilization in the early game : between investing into Buildings to not suffer too much from overexpansion, purchasing Units to defend new Cities that will undoubtedly anger neighboring civilizations, and the necessity to accumulate Gold for new Cities later, this civilization will have to play its economic game well or lose much of the gains it can get in the early game.

The Cost of the Unit and its increase will surely be debated, as will be the free Lighthouse it provides in this first version of the proposal. About the Lighthouse, the idea is to still push the civ towards having a water empire first and foremost. It will also allow the civ to gain back Gold (which compensate the high cost increase of the Asamu after the first few Cities) after the settled Cities have grown a bit.

Lighthouse as free building is perfect. It also keeps the early science from progress that made Carthage so strong.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Scaling cost seems a bit high. The 5th city after the capital would cost 1K.

We could consider adding more sight when embarked. So he can get around barbs more easily. He will have to go without escort often.

 

[Hinin]

I like both the Tophet and the Asamu. I would rather give up the Suffet for the Asamu. While the Suffet is a very unique design, it would not feel as much a nerf as losing the Tophet would be. It's a damn strong building.

One of the rules of VP civ design is that civs get two eco components and two military ones (Venise, being Venise, is an exception, hence the 2 UU it gets in 4UC). Removing the Suffet from the Asamu would break that rule without good reason, so I'm against it.

Scaling cost seems a bit high. The 5th city after the capital would cost 1K.

We could consider adding more sight when embarked. So he can get around barbs more easily. He will have to go without escort often.

Lighthouse as free building is perfect. It also keeps the early science from progress that made Carthage so strong.

The Gold cost will be the main way to balance the unit, so fine-tuning that part will be an important element. To me, the gold gained from the Lighthouse (city connection + gold from water) can balance the high gold cost increase of the Asamu. That said, maybe we can target something like 300 Gold + 100 per city after the first.

For the Sight bonus when embarked, I'm not against, but there could be other ways (for example, a "withdraw before melee" bonus).

 

[CppMaster]

That said, maybe we can target something like 300 Gold + 100 per city after the first.

Why does it have to scale with number of cities? Each new city is not valuable more. On the contrary, it's valuable relatively less, so it's counterintuitive to cost more.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Why does it have to scale with number of cities? Each new city is not valuable more. On the contrary, it's valuable relatively less, so it's counterintuitive to cost more.

Because normal settlers also scale.

 

[KlHannibal2]

I tried Carthage with the new UA. Contrary to what I remembered from older games, the Tophet did not do much. There were few barbs and I got a few free units from city states. It would definitely be interwsting to try the new UU.

 

[CppMaster]

Because normal settlers also scale.

Ok, then it makes sense to mimic their scaling.

 

[KaoticKanine]

One of the rules of VP civ design is that civs get two eco components and two military ones (Venise, being Venise, is an exception, hence the 2 UU it gets in 4UC). Removing the Suffet from the Asamu would break that rule without good reason, so I'm against it.

And here I was about to make a suggestion for the Iroquois thread to address the fact that they are the only Civ with three UUs lol But with this line of reasoning, I can accept that now. And in light of the Iroquois' situation, I'm on-board for Carthage to get a third UU themselves in exchange for the Tophet, which never really was impactful. Not to mention rather anti-thematic; gaining Culture for buying units isn't exactly what I'd expect from a building that was exclusively used for child sacrifices. Which is an aspect of Carthaginian culture I think we'd like to ignore lol

Anywho, the Asamu itself looks good. Settlers that you don't need to research a tech for, can be purchased and moved right afterward (without costing a Pop), can innately embark, and provide free Lighthouses to settled cities, with the necessary drawback of becoming more expensive with each new city and only existing one at a time. Gonna have to see how it works out in practice, but on paper this seems perfect for Carthage.

 

[usadefcon1]

You could move the UA "Owned Coastal cities receive a free Lighthouse" to Asamu and give them something else on the UA instead.

Something like "Receive a Free Cargo Ship whenever you gain a new Trade Route"

 

[Urzamax]

I think it might be worthwhile to make a playtest file for the Asamu; it dramatically changes an integral part of the early game for Carthage, so having as many people as possible play it in order to suss out the feel and balance seems ideal. Might even be good to use IGE to tailor a start so that we can test basic settler/Tophet vs Asamu and see how many cities we can lay down and what state the empire's in by a certain turn limit with each version. I also agree with 300+100*n-1 change to the cost calculation.

 

[randomnub]

One of the rules of VP civ design is that civs get two eco components and two military ones (Venise, being Venise, is an exception, hence the 2 UU it gets in 4UC). Removing the Suffet from the Asamu would break that rule without good reason, so I'm against it.

Judging by the actual 34uc components, the rule seems to be that each civ gets 2 UUs (one can be a civilian) and 2 buildings (only one can be a unique national wonder, or a unique improvement). Carthage would end with 3 UUs (2 civilians) and 1 building (UNW), not a single building in the kit.


Anyway, this unit looks a bit too convoluted, while the tophet is simple, elegant, AI friendly, synergizes well with the bonus gold and ages better as the game progresses.

 

[azum4roll]

AI won't comprehend having only one settler at a time. Either they have to be made extra careful with the unit (thus delaying their first settle especially around humans), or they'll keep losing the unit and waste gold.

 

[Hinin]

not a single building in the kit.

And ?

3 UUs (2 civilians)

3 units : 2 military and 1 economic

the rule seems to be that each civ gets 2 UUs (one can be a civilian) and 2 buildings (only one can be a unique national wonder, or a unique improvement).

The distribution is : two military units, two economic components (be it through unique civilians, buildings, national wonders or improvements. A civ could have 2 military units and 2 civilian economic units for all that matter and the distribution would still be respected.

Anyway, this unit looks a bit too convoluted, while the tophet is simple, elegant, AI friendly, synergizes well with the bonus gold and ages better as the game progresses.

To me, it is quite a simple component. I just took some time to explain some more minute details, but in the end it's simply a Settler that can be purchased but not produced, can embark and gives a Lighthouse.

AI won't comprehend having only one settler at a time. Either they have to be made extra careful with the unit (thus delaying their first settle especially around humans), or they'll keep losing the unit and waste gold.

The AI uses Settlers all the time, and they accompany them whenever possible. To me, if there are problems on that front, then there are problems with all AI settling.

 

[azum4roll]

The distribution is : two military units, two economic components (be it through unique civilians, buildings, national wonders or improvements. A civ could have 2 military units and 2 civilian economic units for all that matter and the distribution would still be respected.

Ikanda is nowhere economic, and Bandeirantes aren't military units.

Instead of vague classifications like this, we should stick close to 2 units + 2 others, that's clearly defined.

 

[Hinin]

I do not see why having flexible categories is a problem. The endgoal is to have a kit that offers military and economic options, whatever the means.

But we agree to disagree I guess.

Ikanda is nowhere economic

Hence why the Zulu have a unique General that provides economic benefits.

Bandeirantes aren't military units

Hence why I dislike the Brazilian kit. It's too heavily economically weighted.

 

[CppMaster]

One of the rules of VP civ design is that civs get two eco components and two military ones (Venise, being Venise, is an exception, hence the 2 UU it gets in 4UC). Removing the Suffet from the Asamu would break that rule without good reason, so I'm against it.

What's the point of sticking to this rule? How is it benefitial?

If a civ would not follow this rule, it would make the civ more unique... Which is the point of unique components.

 

[Hinin]

What's the point of sticking to this rule? How is it benefitial?

If a civ would not follow this rule, it would make the civ more unique... Which is the point of unique components.

Basically, it can get blocked in both ways : if we use the 2 units / 2 buildings approach, it gets limiting fast. If we use the 2 eco / 2 military one, it also gets limiting, but much more slowly. If we add the need for balance (not all eggs in the same basket), then the 2 eco / 2 military way is both less limiting and gives more ways to balance a kit.

This debate took place at least 6 years ago during the infancy of 4UC, and it's been my answer ever since.

 

[CppMaster]

Basically, it can get blocked in both ways : if we use the 2 units / 2 buildings approach, it gets limiting fast. If we use the 2 eco / 2 military one, it also gets limiting, but much more slowly. If we add the need for balance (not all eggs in the same basket), then the 2 eco / 2 military way is both less limiting and gives more ways to balance a kit.

This debate took place at least 6 years ago during the infancy of 4UC, and it's been my answer ever since.

No, I mean, why the limitation at all? Like if someone come up with a great set of 3 military and 1 eco components then fine. What's the point of the limitation for the sake of the rule?