Base commerce

[yanner39]

Hey all,

Slowly getting back into Civ4 BTS and getting use to the commerce aspect of the game.

Assuming a 6 city empire, how much base commerce should I aim for on higher difficulties?

It's probably a strange question, but in the past, I would always over-cottage to make sure I stayed ahead of the AI. Over-cottaging meant my production potentially suffered as well as my growth, etc.

Any thoughts?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Staying ahead of the AI is not necessarily the #1 priority. Especially on higher levels, you probably won't be able to stay ahead of the AI by self-teching and will need bulbing and tech trades to remain at parity or better. When it comes to pure #s, there are no specifics. If you have good cottageable land (specifically a good commerce capital for bureaucracy), then commerce will likely drive a majority of your teching. If you don't have good cottagable land or commerce heavy start, then running scientists, bulbing, and build research may drive your early research. Most of the time is a combination of the two so looking at pure commerce isn't really helpful.

IMO, it's better to set a research rate goal than a pure commerce goal. I've seen deity players mention that being able to run 100 per turn at 1AD is decent enough of a base to use for an eventual breakout. It's good to try and have more (obviously) and if you have a good bureau capital and beeline Civil Service, you could easily have much more than 100/turn by 1AD.

On the other end of things is gold . Usually, selling resources/techs, getting fail-gold for wonders, and build wealth provides most of the gold for you to run a high slider. So, again, research is a better measure of how much "commerce" you should have. Don't forget that trade routes, lux resources, riverside farms, and seafood also add to your commerce count (not just cottages).

 

[Major Tom]

As blitzkrieg says, but will add the importance of traderoutes especially when land for production, whipping and growth are needed. Try get TGL adding two pr coastal city. Harbours add 50% on top of that. And currency should be prioritized for several reasons and it adds another one.

Edit: pay attention to diplomacy to get the beefy foreign ones and make sure you will not be cut off.

 

[yanner39]

Thanks to you both. Yes, it's coming back to me. Do you cottage only riverside tiles or any grassland tile?

I usually cottage the capital, settle close cities to work these tiles but I usually farm my other cities (and workshop them).

I'm always concerned about not having enough commerce. Building research is fine but if I'm building research I'm not building other stuff.

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[lymond]

Do you cottage only riverside tiles or any grassland tile?

It depends. If the city is already explicitly for commerce, like a Bureau cap, then I will pretty much cottage anything, leaving enough food and production for growth/hammers.

I usually cottage the capital, settle close cities to work these tiles but I usually farm my other cities (and workshop them).

Bureau cottage cap is generally always good, if the initial cap has the appropriate land - it doesn't always. Moving the Palace is a possibility. On some maps, true Bureai caps can be hard to come by.

It is good to settle helper cities for the cap to keep cottages workings. Overlap is good anyways as you know, especially on higher levels. At least a couple of helper cities. Really depends on the land, although I've settled cities that would pretty much not be a great help later once the cap grows just to get those cottage rocking.

Outside the cap, generally food and production is key and is what you should be focusing on. one or two strong cottage sites is good though if the land is suited for that.

Workshops are very good later on. I usually plan for that out some point on the outward growth of cities plus techs/civics. (if they game comes to that point)

which leads to

I'm always concerned about not having enough commerce. Building research is fine but if I'm building research I'm not building other stuff.

what stuff?

You have experience now and know quite a few basics concepts and things that help you win on higher levels. However, some of your comments seem to denote a lack of focus or planning in how you play the game.

You seem stuck on cottages and research, but I'm not sure what your plan is. With the exception of Culture, which can be won most passively, most VCs require expansion, setting up economy, and warfare - whether you like it or not.

Generally a strong Bureau cap and GP farm, plus well designed cities can get you to a good point to do what you need to do on any level. I detect a lack of emphasis and use of great people which is a big part of playing on higher levels. Gold should be easy to come by (gpt from trades, tech trades for gold, conquest, etc.).

Ultimately your empire is setup such that bpt output is strong due to multipliers so that when you do get the gold you can max research. You can build Wealth in cities as needed when those cities have not much to do (get away from building useless stuff). Building research is generally only good early on to get to Currency fast or much later when you have gobs of gold to max out..like for Space.

Get to a strong military setup and then just pump out an army..whip whip whip..to get out units. Cities like the Cap stay large to keep research going, and HE to build units quick, but most other cities can be whipped hard and should be setup for that purpose when needed.

Again, you have this fixation on finding ways to "keep pace" with the AIs research wise on higher levels. The point is that on IMM+ the AIs are pretty much always going to out tech you early on due to their bonuses. However, AIs are pretty predictable in how they tech. So what you do is use that to your advantage to tech and bulb an appropriate path for your goals. trade techs for anything you missed of any importance, get a military advantage, whip, go kill peoples.

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you can go into settings and get rid of this

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You can build Wealth in cities as needed when those cities have not much to do (get away from building useless stuff). Building research is generally only good early on to get to Currency fast or much later when you have gobs of gold to max out..like for Space.

Get to a strong military setup and then just pump out an army..whip whip whip..to get out units. Cities like the Cap stay large to keep research going, and HE to build units quick, but most other cities can be whipped hard and should be setup for that purpose when needed.

This x1000. I assume that yanner39 is referring to building units when he says "other stuff". Units only need be built for HR happiness (cheap warriors) and then when it's time to go to war (whip whip whip). Having a bunch of units sitting around will just vacuum up your GPT from maintenance. In the case of your non-commerce cities, you should really only build granary, forge, possibly AP religion temple/monastery and, if you're stuck with 6 cities, then library/university/theater to unlock Oxford and Globe. Other than that, build wealth/research or wonders for fail gold.

The key to staying alive on higher levels is manipulating diplomacy. Trying to keep up in military to dissuade a DoW is an easy way to sabotage your economy and it isn't going to be effective with the AI getting its high level bonuses. Use tech bribes to get the AI to cancel trades and DoW on each other. Selling techs and trading around tends to give you diplo bonuses. Staying out of religion until a dominant faith emerges is another key to diplo. In games with a wide diversity of state religions and religious zealots, I tend to stay out of religion altogether and go Free Religion with SwPaya or Liberalism. In situations like that, the AI tend to gun for each other while you peacefully prepare for whatever victory you want.

 

[Seraiel]

Very good advice in this thread.

Just from me: Aim for 200+ / turn at 1 AD. That's not base , but with multipliers, and how you get it, is up to you (Scientists, Cottages, etc.) .

 

[yanner39]

Thanks to all. A lot of these concepts are coming back, especially the specialists and bulbing parts. I know specializing of cities is also important. I think I probably didn't phrase my question properly. I realize that on higher difficulties, you cannot rely solely on commerce to tech. But "some" commerce is needed. I need to remember tech trading strategies. I do remember that on higher difficulties, I don't tech Alphabet. I tech aesthetics and trade for alpha.

Thanks again.

 

[yanner39]

This x1000. I assume that yanner39 is referring to building units when he says "other stuff". Units only need be built for HR happiness (cheap warriors) and then when it's time to go to war (whip whip whip). Having a bunch of units sitting around will just vacuum up your GPT from maintenance. In the case of your non-commerce cities, you should really only build granary, forge, possibly AP religion temple/monastery and, if you're stuck with 6 cities, then library/university/theater to unlock Oxford and Globe. Other than that, build wealth/research or wonders for fail gold.

The key to staying alive on higher levels is manipulating diplomacy. Trying to keep up in military to dissuade a DoW is an easy way to sabotage your economy and it isn't going to be effective with the AI getting its high level bonuses. Use tech bribes to get the AI to cancel trades and DoW on each other. Selling techs and trading around tends to give you diplo bonuses. Staying out of religion until a dominant faith emerges is another key to diplo. In games with a wide diversity of state religions and religious zealots, I tend to stay out of religion altogether and go Free Religion with SwPaya or Liberalism. In situations like that, the AI tend to gun for each other while you peacefully prepare for whatever victory you want.

This is great stuff, especially the diplo/religion part. I had forgotten about that.