[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[ferretbacon]

Well since the Taj Majal is in the expansion, why not Shah Jahan for the second leader of India? He's widely considered one of the greatest Mughal Emperors and created many of the buildings and monuments the Mughal Empire was famous for. That way we still get Gandhi but India also gets a more serious leader not just based around a Civ in-joke.

So long as they have no intentions of adding a dedicated Mughal civ to the game, I'd welcome a Mughal ruler as an alt for India.

 

[Siptah]

In a first look video before release of civ VI, we saw a leader icon of a man with a turban and a mustache. Might have been a second leader for India...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

There are many random guesses here , so far all civs that are revealed were seen in trailer , so that pretty much confirms it ,I think you should base your guess around trailer..I personally didnt analyzed trailer to much but many people guessing american indians , but I dont remember seeing them in trailer. Same thing with africa like ghana , mali , zulu.

If that were the case we would only probably be getting Korea, Netherlands, Mongolia, maybe Portugal, Georgia? We would still have three more to go and most of those places in the world do not have much representation yet.

My bad. I hadn't seen that. Ghana/Mali/Songhai seems unlikely to happen then.

Mali only needs one leader.

 

[LastSword]

I would love some English/British ruler as an alt for America.

I also hope Genoa is finally arriving, can play around both loyalty and golden age to some extent.

 

[Naktis]

If you all want another US leader...then Jefferson Davis...of the Confederate

 

[Mobfire]

In the Screenshot Discussion Thread, it was mentioned that Popé could possibly be the leader wearing the headgear in this image:

Spoiler :

(2nd from bottom)

Some say his skin color is too dark, but not all Puebloans necessarily have super dark skin.

Now, after the whole debacle in Civ5 BNW where the Tewa people objected to the representation of their language and leader, I can see why people are calling this unlikely and/or impossible. However, I think there's still a chance of the Puebloans appearing in-game, and here's why:

People often ask how we select new leaders and civilizations to include in expansions... ...Well, it is a collaborative process that involves the whole team from art and design to production and even our legal department.

Yes, that's right, Firaxis' lawyers were active in the selection of Civ 6's civilizations. Why is that important? Well, I can't imagine civilizations like Korea or the Netherlands being too much of a hassle to include in-game. Same goes for other series staples such as the Maya and Inca, even if they are precolumbian. This points to smaller native groups like the Puebloans, who might have religious objections to leaders like Popé being represented. Seeing as Firaxis has expressed interest in including them in the past, it's certainly feasible that they may have tried again, but this time coming to an agreement with the help of their lawyers. The Puebloans would also satisfy all three of Firaxis' selection criteria: they come from a region that isn't well-represented (North America), from a time period that isn't well represented (Pre-Columbian Americas + early colonization of Americas by European powers) have not appeared in any civ games before. The history of the Puebloans, including the decline of the ancestral Puebloans, the Spanish invasion, and the rallying of different groups and cultures behind Popé during the Pueblo revolt would certainly lend itself well to unique abilities that fit the theme of Rise and Fall. This is far from certain but it's definitely interesting to think about, and I know that I personally would love to see the Puebloans make their debut in civ.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

In the Screenshot Discussion Thread, it was mentioned that Popé could possibly be the leader wearing the headgear in this image:

Spoiler :

(2nd from bottom)

Some say his skin color is too dark, but not all Puebloans necessarily have super dark skin.

Now, after the whole debacle in Civ5 BNW where the Tewa people objected to the representation of their language and leader, I can see why people are calling this unlikely and/or impossible. However, I think there's still a chance of the Puebloans appearing in-game, and here's why:

Yes, that's right, Firaxis' lawyers were active in the selection of Civ 6's civilizations. Why is that important? Well, I can't imagine civilizations like Korea or the Netherlands being too much of a hassle to include in-game. Same goes for other series staples such as the Maya and Inca, even if they are precolumbian. This points to smaller native groups like the Puebloans, who might have religious objections to leaders like Popé being represented. Seeing as Firaxis has expressed interest in including them in the past, it's certainly feasible that they may have tried again, but this time coming to an agreement with the help of their lawyers. The Puebloans would also satisfy all three of Firaxis' selection criteria: they come from a region that isn't well-represented (North America), from a time period that isn't well represented (Pre-Columbian Americas + early colonization of Americas by European powers) have not appeared in any civ games before. This is far from certain but it's definitely interesting to think about, and I know that I personally would love to see the Puebloans make their debut in civ.

I had wondered about the legal team too. Perhaps they had to procure the rights to represent a more recently deceased leader from that leader's estate.

 

[pgm123]

I had wondered about the legal team too. Perhaps they had to procure the rights to represent a more recently deceased leader from that leader's estate.

Probably the Dutch Royal family. But it could also be something as simple as Hojo being clearly modeled on an actor who plays Hojo in a drama.

I really don't think we'll see the Pueblo, at least not with Pope. Yes, you can represent him legally. Yes, asking the legal team will help mitigate the risk of a lawsuit. But this is the scenario being outlined. Firaxis went to a nation and asked for help created a leader and were told no because it was disrespectful and sacrilegious. Firaxis responded by going to a different nation to ask for help in creating the same leader and in the process consulted legal help on how to best avoid trouble. It seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Moreover, they're not going to release a leader if they think there's any chance a cease and desist case will have to be litigated in court. Even if they think their case is full proof, it's still something they'd want to avoid. Lastly, the negative PR of a Native nation being disrespected has got to be too much for Firaxis. I would have a hard time justifying the purchase of that leader because his inclusion is so clearly disrespecting the wishes of the Tewa.

So, I think Pope is 100% out. The only chance is if the Tewa leadership wanted his inclusion this time. It goes beyond just reaching an accommodation. It would have to be an active desire for him included, imo.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

If you all want another US leader...then Jefferson Davis...of the Confederate

I know you jest, but I'd love a Dixie Empire! The Unique Improvement could be an "Antebellum Plantation" that gives Culture in addition to greater yields than the standard plantation, and the Unique Ability would definitely have to be something to do with Great Generals. I'm going to start brainstorming! I'll put my ideas on the "Design your own Civilization" thread.

 

[Zaarin]

If you all want another US leader...then Jefferson Davis...of the Confederate

I still think people make too big a deal of capitals. We currently have a sample size of one on which to make that assumption.

Probably the Dutch Royal family. But it could also be something as simple as Hojo being clearly modeled on an actor who plays Hojo in a drama.

I really don't think we'll see the Pueblo, at least not with Pope. Yes, you can represent him legally. Yes, asking the legal team will help mitigate the risk of a lawsuit. But this is the scenario being outlined. Firaxis went to a nation and asked for help created a leader and were told no because it was disrespectful and sacrilegious. Firaxis responded by going to a different nation to ask for help in creating the same leader and in the process consulted legal help on how to best avoid trouble. It seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Moreover, they're not going to release a leader if they think there's any chance a cease and desist case will have to be litigated in court. Even if they think their case is full proof, it's still something they'd want to avoid. Lastly, the negative PR of a Native nation being disrespected has got to be too much for Firaxis. I would have a hard time justifying the purchase of that leader because his inclusion is so clearly disrespecting the wishes of the Tewa.

So, I think Pope is 100% out. The only chance is if the Tewa leadership wanted his inclusion this time. It goes beyond just reaching an accommodation. It would have to be an active desire for him included, imo.

I 100% agree with this. Even if it's legal, I don't think Firaxis will risk the bad publicity of portraying a sacred ancestor explicitly against the wishes of Native American elders.

 

[Cerilis]

Probably the Dutch Royal family. But it could also be something as simple as Hojo being clearly modeled on an actor who plays Hojo in a drama.

I really don't think we'll see the Pueblo, at least not with Pope. Yes, you can represent him legally. Yes, asking the legal team will help mitigate the risk of a lawsuit. But this is the scenario being outlined. Firaxis went to a nation and asked for help created a leader and were told no because it was disrespectful and sacrilegious. Firaxis responded by going to a different nation to ask for help in creating the same leader and in the process consulted legal help on how to best avoid trouble. It seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Moreover, they're not going to release a leader if they think there's any chance a cease and desist case will have to be litigated in court. Even if they think their case is full proof, it's still something they'd want to avoid. Lastly, the negative PR of a Native nation being disrespected has got to be too much for Firaxis. I would have a hard time justifying the purchase of that leader because his inclusion is so clearly disrespecting the wishes of the Tewa.

So, I think Pope is 100% out. The only chance is if the Tewa leadership wanted his inclusion this time. It goes beyond just reaching an accommodation. It would have to be an active desire for him included, imo.

I agree, as much as I would like to see them. The only way it would work would be if those guys were suddenly okay with it, like, 100% on their terms.

 

[God of Kings]

The Tewa would be more than happy for the depiction of Popé if the purpose of his inclusion is educational.

However, Civ games are entertainment first and foremost, education being secondary, which is another reason why the Tewa are less open to having him included in entertainment. Civ games aren't edutainment at all, contrary to what is said on Wikipedia.

 

[HEF]

If you all want another US leader...then Jefferson Davis...of the Confederate

Would certainly fit the theme '...and Fall' part of the title Sid Meier's Civilization VI: Rise and Fall.

However, a defunct (and outdated) confederate faction wouldn't be in demand in a computer strategy game dedicated to the diverse & global advancement of women leaders in 2018.

 

[Zaarin]

The Tewa would be more than happy for the depiction of Popé if the purpose of his inclusion is educational.

However, Civ games are entertainment first and foremost, education being secondary, which is another reason why the Tewa are less open to having him included in entertainment. Civ games aren't edutainment at all.

I wouldn't be certain of that. Many Navajo, especially elderly Navajo, dislike having their picture taken because they believe it steals part of your soul. If the Tewa have similar beliefs, they may very well be against any visual depiction of a religious leader, especially one as potentially...trivializing as Civilization.

 

[God of Kings]

I wouldn't be certain of that. Many Navajo, especially elderly Navajo, dislike having their picture taken because they believe it steals part of your soul. If the Tewa have similar beliefs, they may very well be against any visual depiction of a religious leader, especially one as potentially...trivializing as Civilization.

The statue of Popé would like a word:



Regardless, it would be best for Civ games not to include Popé.

 

[ferretbacon]

The only depiction that the Confederacy deserves in a civ game (outside a Civil War scenario) is as an independent city rebelling from America, which is swiftly crushed and brought back to heel.

 

[Zaarin]

The statue of Popé would like a word:



Regardless, it would be best for Civ games not to include Popé.

I can't speak for the Tewa, but I don't think the Navajo view sculpture the same as photography; I'd imagine (especially if they're older) they'd view video games as much closer to photography. Again, I don't know if the Tewa have such beliefs, but if they do that may be a factor.

 

[The Great Navy]

Yea i don't mind the fact that america probably won't be the civ to get the alt leader because of many other civs needing it more.
And the capital city problem though they could just use a city from the state the president was born and handwave it by implying that D.C is the government district . But........ I just thought of a really cool (at least i think it's cool) ability for FDR and i really want to share it.
I'm gonna divide the ability into two parts to make it easier to read.

Leader: Franklin D. Rosevelt

ability: The New Deal
par1: Fdr gains a diplomacy slot and everytime america completes a district project 10% of that project's yield is turned into a tourism bonus (effect is doubled if the city has a film studio) against civs it has trade route with.

This is essentially what america will be using when it in a dark, normal, or golden age. the diplomacy slot is to bring america's civ ability in line with greece's and the district project's are supposed to symbolise the new deal projects, but the reason it gives tourism instead of some other bonus is because america has the film studio for a unique building so any leader of america has to have some type of tourism bouness. i also gave it a trade route limitation so it isn't easy to get early cultural wins.

part2: During Heroic ages Fdr get's an economic policy slot in any kind of government type, whenever america completes a district project it get's 20% of that projects yield as gold and a tourism bonus (the tourism bonus is doubled in cities with a film studio but this bonus does not stack with the one in part1) with all known civs. All cities get +2 and +2 amenities.

I believe the rest of this ability shouldn't need much explaining this is representing america during and after world war 2 with it's economic and cultural domination.
I originally wanted to add some stuff for when america was in a dark age but i thought that would be both too much and counter intuitive.

capital city: New york city (it was a capital at some point)

Leader agenda: Good Neighbour Policy
likes peaceful golden/heroic age civs dislikes civs who declare war on civs in a dark age.

Well that took a long time to write and by the time i finished the conversation moved on oh well.

 

[Duckfromstatefarm]

I'd love to see how Fixaris does Alternate leader packs. For alternate leaders for America, I would love to see one female leader for the Americans but I would like to see some new faces for America, like Kennedy, Andew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, and any American First Ladies that could work. I also would love to see an Arab queen as an alt leader for Arabia. For Rome, I'd love to see Marcus Aurelius (One of the good Roman Emperors), Hadarian, Roman empresses like Livia (empress of Augustus Caesar), and I would love to see constantine (The Christian Emperor). Could use a Male leader for Scythia, I'd love to see what female leader Fixaris picks for Macedon, I could have many things else but I don't want to make a big wall of text in one post.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Ok here are updated predictions, not just for this expansion.
Rise and Fall
1. Korea (confirmed)
2. Netherlands (confirmed)
3. Mongolia (basically confirmed)

(Past Civs Not in Game Yet but have been in since release and will come)
Babylon
Byzantine
Carthage
Celts (in some form)
Ethiopia
Inca
Maya
Ottomans
Portugal
Zulu

(Civs that will return from being in one or two games before)
Assyria
Austria
Iroquois (or another Eastern tribe)
Mali
Sioux (or another Western tribe)
Sweden
Polynesia (in some form)

Morocco (might return?)

Newcomers I want
Italy
Gran Colombia
Phoenicia (doubt it, but maybe)

Possible ones that aren't mentioned but might replace the ones above depending on how many:
Argentina
Canada
Georgia
Vietnam

Civs I don't believe will be in from Civ 5
Denmark (Replaced by Norway, unless they go non-Viking themed)
Huns (Replaced by Scythia)
Shoshone (replaced by Sioux or other Western Native American tribe)
Siam (Replaced by Khmer)
Songhai (replaced by Mali)
Venice (replaced by Italy)