[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

Isn't it an extremely American-centred statement?
Those are just pre-civilised tribes and cultures.
How are they different from the hundreds of Asian and European early cultures?
In general memory those are pushed aside by much greater and developed cultures and empires that took their place. But some of them had been much more developed and interesting that the Native Americans were.
Too bad for those Old World early cultures, they didn't have white enlightened conquerors to feel guilty for destroying them and eventually overrate their historical significance.
Those uncivilised early cultures should be on a way lower priority as civs in the game, on neither sides of the Atlantic.
:rolleyes:

This is what people mean when they say that the tech tree is Eurocentric. The indigenous peoples of North America were not primitive, despite lacking the wheel (a logical enough oversight given the lack of large domesticated animals) and metallurgy (for reasons that are not at all clear, given the widespread use of native copper and pottery). In the Eastern Woodlands and Mississippi watershed they were urbanized, centralized, practicing large-scale agriculture with complex social institutions, exhibiting stratified societies, and employing specialists. All of this is true of the PNW as well, except for being centralized (the geography discouraged it) and practicing agriculture (the climate made it unnecessary). Move into Mesoamerica and you have all of this plus bronze-working, writing, and advanced mathematics. To argue that Native Americans didn't form civilizations because they lacked metallurgy shows a profound lack of understanding of pre-Columbian North America, which was very different from Siberia, the Australian Aborigines, or Neolithic Europe.

Pella and Sparta are three tiles apart on a TSL map. That's why I didn't mention them :p (whereas Greece and Rome, and Paris and Aachen are precisely two tiles apart.)

Manual manipulation doesn't really matter here because the game is supposed to be played without duplicate leaders and random opponents. But if you'd like to test what happens if you (for instance) play trajan and set gorgo and perikles are players, be my guest ^__^

Besides, Ottomans and Byzantium could appear on a TSL map if the ottoman/turkish capital is Ankara over Istanbul.
I put Sparta, Athens, Macedon, and Poland on the same TSL Earth map (Firaxis's small one) once. Gorgo didn't make it and Alexander wasn't doing so well. :P
 
In regards to early non-traditional cultures some other things to consider are 1) information we know about them and 2) relative competition with later cultures.

For 1) the thing is there simply is a lack of information about so many early cultures, especially when it comes to things like famous leaders and even lifestyle and traditions. This was already a point of contention when the Scythians were revealed, which the Civilopedia even acknowledges regarding some aspects of the representation that were taken with some liberty. The vast majority of what we know about, say, Central Asiatic cultures comes from biased outside perspectives that often conflated multiple groups together or arbitrarily and inconsistently named them. The groups we do know about in greater detail either left some sort of lasting impression through writing or conquest, were recorded in detail by an outside source by chance, or still exist today--ideally, more than one of the above.

To provide some focus we'll avoid discussion of groups that, by most definitions of the word, were "civilized" (ie: not talking about kingdoms, political entities, nation-states, etc). That leaves us with, in broad terms: Native Americans of North America (writing/recorded by others/still around, depending on the tribe), non-Inca/Maya Native Americans of South America (still around), the Central Asian steppe nomads and other tribes (a few still around + recorded by others), the various "barbarian" groups of Europe with variable origins (complicated), the Middle Eastern tribes, the East Asian insular aboriginals (still around, namely the Taiwanese and Japanese groups), the Australian aboriginals (recorded by others/still around), and the various African groups (also complicated).

Spoiler Hidden due to wall of text :

NA Native American: We do have a lot of information about these groups, largely thanks to the fact that contact was relatively recent and most groups still around actively are trying to preserve their culture. However, lack of details is an issue with some groups--most notably the Inuit, who were supposed to be in V but were replaced due to the lack of a known leader.

Perhaps the biggest advantage this group has that none of the other ones do is point 2); a lack of regional competitors. America is the only other nation on the continent regionally speaking, and even if some people don't agree with the idea, Firaxis has stated multiple times both in BNW and Civ VI that regional diversity is something that they look for when selecting civs. it's not a dealbreaking factor, but it does make NA Native American tribes more desirable in filling up an otherwise empty continent. The other point is of course the aforementioned late contact and abundant information. Native American culture is still relevant in modern America, in current events, in history, and in culture; we know enough about many tribes to create distinct civs with relevant leaders and new playstyles, probably the most important factor when it comes to civ design.

The rotational aspect Firaxis seems to be utilizing is a good way of exploring novel playstyles and cultures without overrepresenting a single region. Broadly speaking you could loosely group 8 regions of culturally-similar tribes--northeastern, southeastern, Northern plains, Southern plains, southwestern, Californian, Pacific northwestern (including Alaska), and Caribbean. I think representing two or three of these groups each game, assuming ~45 civs, is a reasonable way to do it.

SA Native American: Going beyond the Inca/Maya (and even the Muisca), there are many tribes still around today; most might think of the uncontacted tribes deep within the Amazon, but regions like Bolivia and Colombia are also home to indigenous groups that do interact with modern society but are just as distinct as northern American groups.

Similar to the NA Native American civs, there isn't much regional competition in South America. However, the SA tribes are far less prevalent in popular culture and the media, other than the novelty of the uncontacted Amazonian groups. There's also the fact that, unlike North America, there are many modern nations on the continent that also want to be represented, in addition to the as-of-yet-unannounced Muisca who in theory should be close to par with the Inca and Maya (admittedly not in popular culture, though). Finally, there's the fact that even though they aren't the same culturally, the current non-Brazil representatives of the region + the Aztecs are already Latin American natives, so the situation isn't the same as in North America; there are in fact indigenous groups of South America already in Civ, as they have been for years.

Central Asian steppe: If you search the mod workshops for a mod civ based in this region, you'll find plenty, and for good reason; there were many nomadic groups based in this area, which had the unique distinction of being recorded very frequently relative to tribes of other areas because of the heavy use of the Silk Road. Different travelers gave different names to different groups, or sometimes to the same group, so there's a lot of information about this area of the world; the issue is separating informative details from exaggerations and misconceptions. Still, though it would be a mistake to dismiss all of these groups as the same, it is true many of them did broadly share a cultural continuity of sorts in being both nomadic and horse-based.

I don't have an issue with the current steppe groups in the game. The Mongols, by consolidating many of them, in a sense do "represent" the medieval-era of the area fairly well. The Scythians and Huns serve a similar purpose for the ancient/classical era; however, I would like to see a more peaceful variant from the area; central Asia is a big place, and plenty of groups played roles in trade and the spread of all the stuff that goes along with that. The Silk Road ran through the heart of this region, and these groups were in many cases active participants in it one way or another.

European "barbaric" groups: Somewhat similar to the central Asian steppe issue, where we have plenty of names and lots of descriptions, but not necessarily very accurate ones. There's also the complicating issue where some modern countries claim ancestry from these groups, some of which are already represented in civ.

Both 1) and 2) are big issues for these groups; for many of them, the extent of our knowledge from historical texts is that they were barbarians and quite destructive. In recent times we've learned more about them, but I'm not sure if it's enough to construct a fully-fleshed civ that would be distinct from, say, the Civ V Huns. As said above there's also another issue for some groups in that some modern states claim cultural continuity with them (for instance, the Franks -> HRE -> Germany). In any case, Civ has the Celts (or maybe a specific Celtic group this time around), which I think is reasonable enough for a region already crowded with civs.

Middle Eastern tribes: Though it certainly wasn't a perfectly smooth process, the Arabian peninsula does have the "advantage" so to speak of being unified quite early compared to the other regions being discussed; Arabia in most iterations represents a caliphate that encompasses the entire peninsula. A non-Arabic tribe in this area would be a pre-Islamic or Biblical one. We do know about them, but as before, there is a vein of cultural continuity between these tribes and post-Islamic Arabia; they're not the same, but there are many points of similarity.

Between Arabia encompassing the peninsula as a whole most of the time and also incorporating some significant aspects of the various tribal cultures, I'd say the pre-Islamic Arabic tribes aren't a urgent inclusion; with that said, keep in mind that this is strictly a discussion of non-kingdom, non-state entities, so this doesn't refer to Israel or other entities of the peninsula.

East Asian (pen)insular aboriginals: Like the SA Native Americans, the aboriginals of regions like Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are not readily recognizable to a Western audience, and in all frankness, to most audiences outside of the nations themselves. The same goes for SE Asia natives.

Many groups have histories reminiscent of American natives, especially in nations like Taiwan and Vietnam, but without cultural context it would be difficult to create compelling civ designs for them; the issue is similar to that of South America, where there are still nations in the region that have yet to debut in Civ that should take precedence.

Australian aboriginal: Probably the group with the strongest case for inclusion not already in the game (ie: outside of NA Native American, European, and central Asian steppe nomads). The reasoning is similar to that of North America; Australia only has one civ to cover an entire landmass, and the aboriginal groups played a role in Australian history akin to Native Americans in American history; additionally, they are currently around and have a distinct culture separate from Australia.

With that said, I'm not advocating for the inclusion of a specific aboriginal tribe, at least not before a number of other civs yet to debut. I was just noting that out of the unrepresented native groups, they have the strongest case for inclusion in the distant future.

Side note: I didn't discuss Polynesian tribal groups because Polynesia as a whole was in V, and while I'd prefer a specific group, that's already more than most other regions on this list.

African native groups: Like the east Asian groups, there are so many major nations, kingdoms, and other political entities of the region that have yet to be represented that it is far too premature to be considering more obscure, less traditionally-structured groups.


TL;DR: NA Native Americans are in a unique space where they not only represent a region that is otherwise unrepresented, but also a culture that is still relevant and familiar with many people today. The only other non-traditionally-structured groups that accomplish one or both of these are the Mongols/Huns/Scythians, which represent central Asia and in the case of the former two are still familiar with people today, and the Celts, who are also still familiar with people today. The only other comparable group are the Australian aboriginals, but even then Oceania as a whole does have a chance of Polynesia "representing" native culture instead.
 
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The one major problem with having the Australian Aborigines is because many tribes have a taboo against depicting the dead (and the taboo even extends to using their names).
 
:rolleyes:

This is what people mean when they say that the tech tree is Eurocentric. The indigenous peoples of North America were not primitive, despite lacking the wheel (a logical enough oversight given the lack of large domesticated animals) and metallurgy (for reasons that are not at all clear, given the widespread use of native copper and pottery). In the Eastern Woodlands and Mississippi watershed they were urbanized, centralized, practicing large-scale agriculture with complex social institutions, exhibiting stratified societies, and employing specialists. All of this is true of the PNW as well, except for being centralized (the geography discouraged it) and practicing agriculture (the climate made it unnecessary). Move into Mesoamerica and you have all of this plus bronze-working, writing, and advanced mathematics. To argue that Native Americans didn't form civilizations because they lacked metallurgy shows a profound lack of understanding of pre-Columbian North America, which was very different from Siberia, the Australian Aborigines, or Neolithic Europe.

The lack of metal working probably has to do with the lack of large domesticable herd animals. Large scale intense agriculture requires cutting deeper into the soil to turn it over to the surface. That requires a lot of work which requires animal power and tools like plows and such. Once you start using metal for agricultural tools you start using it for other tools as well. Without the animal power you aren't going to make the agricultural tool. So while lots of tribes practiced agriculture they would also move every few years as the soil became depleted, not being able to cut deeper into the soil to bring the nutrient rich earth to the surface.
 
Mexico is Northern America

I don't agree that that there should be three tribes from native America in the game if we only have 45 civs. That's one too much (though i would be okay with the Cree, Apache & Iroquois if we have 50 civs with Maya, Inca, Aztecs and Muisca included). And i also don't like the fact that we select civs purely from a TSL-view, like someone said before Siam isn't in the game just because they weren't more located to the west. We shouldn't add irrelevant civs just because there is an unfilled landmass in the game. There is maybe a reason why Australia has few history in terms of civilization.
 
Zaarin nailed it. I have long thought that civ would benefit from a more organic technology system.

Instead of requiring horseback riding early on for things like chivalry, most of the techs should simply be locked until they are 'discovered' (similar to the Eureka system).

It makes no sense that Horseback riding needs to be researched when many civs in the game will never have horses.

This way, instead of going science because you're [Korea], you would go science because your immediate surroundings are well suited to it.

Imagine the power of a system like that. You have no horses, so that portion of the tech tree is unavailable. You meet another nation with horses and establish a delegation...BOOM eureka. Tech unlocked. Your people saw somebody riding a horse. Add a trade route to their civ...BOOM +25% research to techs they have that you don't. Open borders? 50% Alliance? 100%.

I imagine that's too different from the civ formula for it to ever happen outside the mod scene. In the past we thought that about OUPT and hex grids though...

Happy new year all.
 
Isn't it an extremely American-centred statement?
Those are just pre-civilised tribes and cultures.
How are they different from the hundreds of Asian and European early cultures?
In general memory those are pushed aside by much greater and developed cultures and empires that took their place. But some of them had been much more developed and interesting that the Native Americans were.
Too bad for those Old World early cultures, they didn't have white enlightened conquerors to feel guilty for destroying them and eventually overrate their historical significance.
Those uncivilised early cultures should be on a way lower priority as civs in the game, on neither sides of the Atlantic.
I'm not overly familiar with the Native American culture, but I have studied quite extensively with European (obviously in parts, because sooo much history) and a few very specific periods of Chinese history. To suggest that one region is superior or more developed is absolutely farcical. I mean what I know of Native American history/culture is absolutely comparable to the way European people developed (in terms of reactions to their surroundings and inter-relations etc). European culture was far more "developed" in terms of war and colonial ideals. That doesn't mean other cultures didn't match or well outdo them in other areas, they simply lost out when it came to having entirely different values in one section. This is something we see over and over again all through history and absolutely should not diminish the conquered cultures.

That doesn't even touch upon the whole issue with diseases that is totally overlooked by your blanket statement. Sorry Native Americans but apparently your culture was overrated because you couldn't deal with disease wiping out the vast majority of your population at the same time you are being invaded...
 
I wished we never had colonized the new world, though the world may have been very different.
 
:rolleyes:

This is what people mean when they say that the tech tree is Eurocentric. The indigenous peoples of North America were not primitive, despite lacking the wheel (a logical enough oversight given the lack of large domesticated animals) and metallurgy (for reasons that are not at all clear, given the widespread use of native copper and pottery). In the Eastern Woodlands and Mississippi watershed they were urbanized, centralized, practicing large-scale agriculture with complex social institutions, exhibiting stratified societies, and employing specialists. All of this is true of the PNW as well, except for being centralized (the geography discouraged it) and practicing agriculture (the climate made it unnecessary). Move into Mesoamerica and you have all of this plus bronze-working, writing, and advanced mathematics. To argue that Native Americans didn't form civilizations because they lacked metallurgy shows a profound lack of understanding of pre-Columbian North America, which was very different from Siberia, the Australian Aborigines, or Neolithic Europe.

Certainly there is much space for a re-definition of the Tech system in the game. Make it more culturally diverse, based on in-game events and the map itself.
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"In the Eastern Woodlands and Mississippi watershed they were urbanized, centralized, practicing large-scale agriculture with complex social institutions, exhibiting stratified societies, and employing specialists."
I'm not an expert on Native American cultures, but this doesn't seem more "impressive" than other Old World pre-civilised cultures, which you wouldn't consider adding.
Ubaid culture - they built public temples, developed irrigation systems, and floodgates.
Hallstatt culture - which I'm not deeply familiar with, but they have produced some very detailed metal works, like you can see here, here, and some more here.
One can go on for long with names of plenty of Old World cultures, and that's even without diving into their social structure and cultural life, which can also be interesting.
Should we include any of them in the game? No.
Maybe if there would be some more developed mechanism of natives or tribal communities, not the categorising overly aggressive idea of "Barbarians".
But as for now, the way the game is built and with other selections of civs to compare with, I see no reason to add native of south America. Unless Firaxis are desperate about the geographical thing.
But still, I think we have to accept the idea that some areas and cultures of the world have been less civilised than others.
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"Move into Mesoamerica and you have all of this plus bronze-working, writing, and advanced mathematics."
I have never claimed anything against Mesoamerican civs in that context.
While they are literally Native Americans, I did not refer to them at all, they should be in the game with no doubt. Their social and political structure reminded of what Civilisation is about, and is much more comparable to Mesopotamia or East Asia than the northern American cultures.
Ideally, I'd rather have the Olmecs in the game over the currently desired Native American tribes.
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I know you can point out Scythians as an example for another not fully civilised culture. I may accept that.
But did anyone suggest adding more and more Ancient Era Steppe civs?
I would not protest against it if the request was just to add one north American Native group to the game.


In regards to early non-traditional cultures some other things to consider are 1) information we know about them and 2) relative competition with later cultures.

For 1) the thing is there simply is a lack of information about so many early cultures, especially when it comes to things like famous leaders and even lifestyle and traditions. This was already a point of contention when the Scythians were revealed, which the Civilopedia even acknowledges regarding some aspects of the representation that were taken with some liberty. The vast majority of what we know about, say, Central Asiatic cultures comes from biased outside perspectives that often conflated multiple groups together or arbitrarily and inconsistently named them. The groups we do know about in greater detail either left some sort of lasting impression through writing or conquest, were recorded in detail by an outside source by chance, or still exist today--ideally, more than one of the above.

To provide some focus we'll avoid discussion of groups that, by most definitions of the word, were "civilized" (ie: not talking about kingdoms, political entities, nation-states, etc). That leaves us with, in broad terms: Native Americans of North America (writing/recorded by others/still around, depending on the tribe), non-Inca/Maya Native Americans of South America (still around), the Central Asian steppe nomads and other tribes (a few still around + recorded by others), the various "barbarian" groups of Europe with variable origins (complicated), the Middle Eastern tribes, the East Asian insular aboriginals (still around, namely the Taiwanese and Japanese groups), the Australian aboriginals (recorded by others/still around), and the various African groups (also complicated).

Spoiler Hidden due to wall of text :

NA Native American: We do have a lot of information about these groups, largely thanks to the fact that contact was relatively recent and most groups still around actively are trying to preserve their culture. However, lack of details is an issue with some groups--most notably the Inuit, who were supposed to be in V but were replaced due to the lack of a known leader.

Perhaps the biggest advantage this group has that none of the other ones do is point 2); a lack of regional competitors. America is the only other nation on the continent regionally speaking, and even if some people don't agree with the idea, Firaxis has stated multiple times both in BNW and Civ VI that regional diversity is something that they look for when selecting civs. it's not a dealbreaking factor, but it does make NA Native American tribes more desirable in filling up an otherwise empty continent. The other point is of course the aforementioned late contact and abundant information. Native American culture is still relevant in modern America, in current events, in history, and in culture; we know enough about many tribes to create distinct civs with relevant leaders and new playstyles, probably the most important factor when it comes to civ design.

The rotational aspect Firaxis seems to be utilizing is a good way of exploring novel playstyles and cultures without overrepresenting a single region. Broadly speaking you could loosely group 8 regions of culturally-similar tribes--northeastern, southeastern, Northern plains, Southern plains, southwestern, Californian, Pacific northwestern (including Alaska), and Caribbean. I think representing two or three of these groups each game, assuming ~45 civs, is a reasonable way to do it.

SA Native American: Going beyond the Inca/Maya (and even the Muisca), there are many tribes still around today; most might think of the uncontacted tribes deep within the Amazon, but regions like Bolivia and Colombia are also home to indigenous groups that do interact with modern society but are just as distinct as northern American groups.

Similar to the NA Native American civs, there isn't much regional competition in South America. However, the SA tribes are far less prevalent in popular culture and the media, other than the novelty of the uncontacted Amazonian groups. There's also the fact that, unlike North America, there are many modern nations on the continent that also want to be represented, in addition to the as-of-yet-unannounced Muisca who in theory should be close to par with the Inca and Maya (admittedly not in popular culture, though). Finally, there's the fact that even though they aren't the same culturally, the current non-Brazil representatives of the region + the Aztecs are already Latin American natives, so the situation isn't the same as in North America; there are in fact indigenous groups of South America already in Civ, as they have been for years.

Central Asian steppe: If you search the mod workshops for a mod civ based in this region, you'll find plenty, and for good reason; there were many nomadic groups based in this area, which had the unique distinction of being recorded very frequently relative to tribes of other areas because of the heavy use of the Silk Road. Different travelers gave different names to different groups, or sometimes to the same group, so there's a lot of information about this area of the world; the issue is separating informative details from exaggerations and misconceptions. Still, though it would be a mistake to dismiss all of these groups as the same, it is true many of them did broadly share a cultural continuity of sorts in being both nomadic and horse-based.

I don't have an issue with the current steppe groups in the game. The Mongols, by consolidating many of them, in a sense do "represent" the medieval-era of the area fairly well. The Scythians and Huns serve a similar purpose for the ancient/classical era; however, I would like to see a more peaceful variant from the area; central Asia is a big place, and plenty of groups played roles in trade and the spread of all the stuff that goes along with that. The Silk Road ran through the heart of this region, and these groups were in many cases active participants in it one way or another.

European "barbaric" groups: Somewhat similar to the central Asian steppe issue, where we have plenty of names and lots of descriptions, but not necessarily very accurate ones. There's also the complicating issue where some modern countries claim ancestry from these groups, some of which are already represented in civ.

Both 1) and 2) are big issues for these groups; for many of them, the extent of our knowledge from historical texts is that they were barbarians and quite destructive. In recent times we've learned more about them, but I'm not sure if it's enough to construct a fully-fleshed civ that would be distinct from, say, the Civ V Huns. As said above there's also another issue for some groups in that some modern states claim cultural continuity with them (for instance, the Franks -> HRE -> Germany). In any case, Civ has the Celts (or maybe a specific Celtic group this time around), which I think is reasonable enough for a region already crowded with civs.

Middle Eastern tribes: Though it certainly wasn't a perfectly smooth process, the Arabian peninsula does have the "advantage" so to speak of being unified quite early compared to the other regions being discussed; Arabia in most iterations represents a caliphate that encompasses the entire peninsula. A non-Arabic tribe in this area would be a pre-Islamic or Biblical one. We do know about them, but as before, there is a vein of cultural continuity between these tribes and post-Islamic Arabia; they're not the same, but there are many points of similarity.

Between Arabia encompassing the peninsula as a whole most of the time and also incorporating some significant aspects of the various tribal cultures, I'd say the pre-Islamic Arabic tribes aren't a urgent inclusion; with that said, keep in mind that this is strictly a discussion of non-kingdom, non-state entities, so this doesn't refer to Israel or other entities of the peninsula.

East Asian (pen)insular aboriginals: Like the SA Native Americans, the aboriginals of regions like Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are not readily recognizable to a Western audience, and in all frankness, to most audiences outside of the nations themselves. The same goes for SE Asia natives.

Many groups have histories reminiscent of American natives, especially in nations like Taiwan and Vietnam, but without cultural context it would be difficult to create compelling civ designs for them; the issue is similar to that of South America, where there are still nations in the region that have yet to debut in Civ that should take precedence.

Australian aboriginal: Probably the group with the strongest case for inclusion not already in the game (ie: outside of NA Native American, European, and central Asian steppe nomads). The reasoning is similar to that of North America; Australia only has one civ to cover an entire landmass, and the aboriginal groups played a role in Australian history akin to Native Americans in American history; additionally, they are currently around and have a distinct culture separate from Australia.

With that said, I'm not advocating for the inclusion of a specific aboriginal tribe, at least not before a number of other civs yet to debut. I was just noting that out of the unrepresented native groups, they have the strongest case for inclusion in the distant future.

Side note: I didn't discuss Polynesian tribal groups because Polynesia as a whole was in V, and while I'd prefer a specific group, that's already more than most other regions on this list.

African native groups: Like the east Asian groups, there are so many major nations, kingdoms, and other political entities of the region that have yet to be represented that it is far too premature to be considering more obscure, less traditionally-structured groups.


TL;DR: NA Native Americans are in a unique space where they not only represent a region that is otherwise unrepresented, but also a culture that is still relevant and familiar with many people today. The only other non-traditionally-structured groups that accomplish one or both of these are the Mongols/Huns/Scythians, which represent central Asia and in the case of the former two are still familiar with people today, and the Celts, who are also still familiar with people today. The only other comparable group are the Australian aboriginals, but even then Oceania as a whole does have a chance of Polynesia "representing" native culture instead.

This is some very interesting comment, thanks.
I still find the suggestions for 4-5 Native American cultures in the game very exaggerated, and I doubt we would have heard such a ideas if they hadn't lived on the territory of the current world's leading power.
 
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Wait what was the direct hint for Georgia?
In the segment of the video with the Mongols, the Sean Bean/Mongol soldier appears to be fighting Georgian soldiers, based on their clothing and the style of their towers. This is going off what more knowledgeable posters on here have said rather than my own analysis, though even I spotted the resemblance with the towers.
 
I have always thought that choosing civs to be included in the game, based on the TSL map to be disingenuous and to do a disservice. Not everyone plays the TSL map and many of the most important historical civs are relatively close to each other.
 
Not everyone plays true start maps, but some people do, and they're not wrong for wanting more geographically diverse civilizations to fill out their maps.

Some people only want civilizations that they see as historically important.

Some people just want to play as the country they live in.

Some people want alt leaders because they don't like who Firaxis chose the first time around.

Firaxis has limited development resources and a lot of different audiences pulling them in different directions. We all have to make certain compromises for the sake of the people who want something different than what we want.
 
Ok, this discussion about whether the North Amerindians qualify for "Civilization" has to stop. Ancient "Old World" Cultures like Ubaid and Hallstatt have no recorded languages and no known leaders. Many North Amerindians have a well documented language and known leaders. They were no less primitive than the Mesoamericans. Look at all the moundworks east of the Mississippi rivers, all evidence of a complex society. Same for the Ancestral Puebloan ruins. Even South America outside of the Andes has evidence for a complex society (Acre geoglyphs, Llanos de Moxos) We don't need to stick to outdated, Eurocentric concepts of what constitutes a Civilization, otherwise we'll only get European, post Colonial nations and maybe only a handful of Asian/Middle Eastern nations. Africa outside of Egypt and Carthage would get nothing, Pre-Columbian Americas outside of Mesoamerica and Andes would get nothing. And it seems Firaxis agrees with me, since they added Kongo, Nubia, and now the Cree. It's only a couple of people whose comments bother/tick me off, but it really has to end.

Rant ended.:mad:
 
Ed Beach did a talk on how they chose civilizations for BNW.

For those who haven't seen it: they tried many approaches and didn't like them. Then they remembered the elimination threads from this forum and decided to do a bunch internally.

They found the 3-4 most significant/popular civs from each category that weren't yet in Civ V and did an elimination thread for each.

The categories were:

- SE Asia (Indonesia)
- Near East (Assyria)
- Former Colonies (Brazil)
- Native American (Pueblo/Shoshone)

Ed chose the remainders with the help of fan expectations and requests. Portugal was chosen because they kept wanting to use them in scenarios. Poland was chosen because there was a massive community lobbying for it for years. Zulu returned by popular demand (worth noting that they actually weren't sure they would come back or that BNW was happening at the time of Gods and Kings). Morocco had captured Ed's interest, along wih Venice. Those two were his personal choices.

Between that and the criteria listed on the R&F announcement blog, it seems clear to me that TSL is relevant, but in a slightly diferent way. It's more about how civs fit into these categories and who they're competing against rather than whether they perfectly overlap. Ed has stated since that they do keep TSL in mind, but it's one of many considerations.

Edited for clarity and link.

 
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I'd like to see them release an XL TSL map that doesn't feel so cramped.

Might also defray some people's concerns about location for the new civs.

I truly hope that there are some new map scripts coming with the expansion that they just haven't mentioned yet. Including a scaling TSL map. And a Terra one too.
 
So where are we sitting, overall?

Netherlands
Korea
Mongols
Cree
India (alt leader)

That leaves 4. Inca seem like a lock to most of us. An anatolian civ seems inevitable as well. Georgia is still a possibility. An african nation seems likely.

Inca (probably male)
Ottomans (probably male)
African Nation (Zenobia, Dido, Ranavalona, Nandi)
Canada or Georgia (Canada has no female leader *cough*Campbell*cough*, but it is the only BNW 'Former Colony' to not be included so far)


Question: what are our thoughts on Ranavalona? Is she too brutal to feature in Civ VI? They tend to avoid controversial leaders as much as possible these days.
 
So where are we sitting, overall?

Netherlands
Korea
Mongols
Cree
India (alt leader)

That leaves 4. Inca seem like a lock to most of us. An anatolian civ seems inevitable as well. Georgia is still a possibility. An african nation seems likely.

Inca (probably male)
Ottomans (probably male)
African Nation (Zenobia, Dido, Ranavalona, Nandi)
Canada or Georgia (Canada has no female leader *cough*Campbell*cough*, but it is the only BNW 'Former Colony' to not be included so far)

Ranavalona isn't going to happen. Antananarivo was seen in a livestream.
 
Was just about to edit my post with that. Forgot it had been spotted. That leaves only Zenobia, Dido and Nandi (Nandi has pretty much a 0% chance in my opinion) for female African rulers that I know of (excluding existing civs). Do we know of any others? My African history is not up to snuff.

[Edit]: Found some:

Yaa Asantewaa (Ashanti)
Taytu Batel (Ethiopia)
Amina (Zaria)

Amina seems unlikely because she's a folk hero that may or may not have even existed. Very little is known about her outside the realm of mythos. We aren't even completely sure when she reigned (that worked for Hiawatha and Dido previously, though).
 
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