[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

Guandao said:
I actually wouldn't mind Hungary or Romania being added to the game. I've more issue with Belgium, Switzerland, and Finland because their best leader options are from later time periods (usually 1800s-1900s) and I find them less interesting than say Matthias Corvinus or Vlad Tepes.
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Well, I would put Huldrych Zwingli of the Reformation Age as the leader of Switzerland. Being a nutso religious fanatic with a tendency for war and violent solutions, he's certainly a big personality. And while not being technically a leader, it would be difficult to find one single outstanding person for the Swiss anyways (Escher? Dufour? Guisan? meh). Also, a civ of that kind would be unexpected and out of the left field for us, so why not. But I of course agree and hope that Switzerland is not one of the civs of the expansion!

The discussion is interesting and it seems there's already a big consensus, but I think some are putting too much faith into an introduction video (although giving the Mongols a female leader would fill the unexpected quota for sure and Mandukhai seems like a 'big personality' as well. I'm just asking myself where in that consensus list would be place for a surprise, since there definitely will be one. So I guess we will miss at least one civ people seem to agree on in here :) We'll see.
 
Xandinho said:
Updating my bets. Gods and Kings have had three civilizations never seen before (Sweden, Huns and Austria) I'll bet we'll see three again. Four female leaders out of a total of nine leaders seem to be ideal.

Returned civs 5/8

1. An Islamic civ: I think the Ottomans have a certain advantage here.
2. An East Asian civ: obviously Korea led by Seondeok
3. A Western European civ: I say Netherlands, although the Celts or Portugal have good possibilities.
4. A pre-Columbian civ: Incas, and South America is underrepresented.
5. An ancient/classic civ: I say Carthage, but why not Babylon? I think this will be implemented in a thematic DLC with the Hittites.

Civs never seen before 3/8

6. A modern civ: Canada, certainly.
7. An Eastern European Civ: Georgia, led by an iconic female leader: Tamar. And Caucasus was never represented by civilizations.
8. An African civ: Ashanti, led by Yaa Asantewaa.

Alternative leader:

Isabella: A leader who makes Spain focused on exploration.
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I think we will get the Mongols, but other than that this is a good list
 
I'm gonna drop my "complete" betting list before the first First Look video (probably) comes out, just to see how close I was on any of them.

1. Korea, led by Seondeok (stone pagoda unique building (monument); hwach'a unique unit; "Seowon" unique ability granting bonuses towards campuses + something about Golden Ages)
2. Ottomans, led by Mehmed II (janissary unique unit; unique ability related to naval units and governors)
3. Netherlands, led by Wilhelmina (polder unique improvement/district; unique ability related to loyalty)
4. Mongolia, led by Kublai Khan (keshik unique unit; encampment unique district replacement; unique ability somehow related to the Yuan dynasty)
5. Byzantium, led by Basil I (dromon unique unit; hippodrome unique building (arena); unique ability related to naval units, religion, and/or Golden Ages)
6. Canada, led by Samuel de Champlain (sap house unique improvement; coureur/voyageur unique unit; unique ability related to trade, loyalty, emergencies, and/or alliances)
7. Palmyra, led by Zenobia (something about Golden Ages I guess)
8. Ashanti or Mali or whatever. Something African, but new(ish)
9. India, led by Nur Jahan


Frankly, the lust for Native American civs on this forum shows that people would pay lots of money for some sweet delicious Inca, Maya, and Iroquois DLC.
 
Since I'm reading the same civs again and again, I'm wondering if there will be any real surprises that no one has on his or her list. I mean Nubia was indeed speculated (and hoped for by a few), but far less than other African civs for DLC 5. There seems again to be a field of ~15 civs of which the 8 would be chosen. I do hope there is a really surprising one. And if not, maybe they can use a leader no one though of but is nonetheless a good choice.

I mean the worst list I can imagine is this (note that the single choices aren't bad per se, but the list as a whole makes me yawn and shudder at the same time):
Mongols led by Genghis Khan
Dutch led by Wilhelm the Silent
Zulu led by Shaka
Portugal led by Joao II
Ottomans led by Suleiman
Byzantines led by Theodora
Inca led by Pachacutiq Inka Yupanki
Maya led by Pacal
Washington as 2nd leader for America.
 
Wild guess on my side, but the ninth leader, I think, is probably going to be Abraham Lincoln.

His bonus will probably strengthen Loyalty during Dark Ages. After all, according to Wikipedia, he "preserved the Union" and "strengthened the Federal Government" during the Civil War, when he was President.

It also ties in the theme music for America - about a decade prior, in 1854, "Hard Times Come Again No More" was produced. No doubt the song went popular since then, and many can relate the song to surviving hard times - say a civil war.

Even if in real life he did not live to see the end of the war, my speculation is that Abe's ability in-game will not only ensure solidarity through a Dark Age, but also higher chances of earning a Heroic Age when a new global era dawns.
 
Yes, I personally would love Mandukhai as the Mongolian leader. But It's unlikely we're getting more than three, maybe four leaders. If they add female leaders for The Netherlands, Korea and Spain (Isabella), it's unlikely they'll extend the same courtesy to Mongolia.


Korea and Mongolia would fill out Asia pretty well. I don't think we can expect any more asian civs for a while.

Personally, I'm looking forward the most to any new Amero-Indian Civs. They've been spoiling us with Scythia, Kongo and Nubia, but I would really love something new from the America's as well. (Although I'd rather see not see Canada). Sioux/Latoka would be ideal for me. :hug:
 
I wonder who is this going to be.

"a female leader will have unique interaction with the Ages system"

Elizabeth I, Tamar, Seondeok, Isabella I, A Mayan female leader or Joan of Arc (dark ages). Probably not Wilhelmina and certainly not Eva Peron.
 
Xandinho said:
Updating my bets. Gods and Kings have had three civilizations never seen before (Sweden, Huns and Austria) I'll bet we'll see three again. Four female leaders out of a total of nine leaders seem to be ideal.

Returned civs 5/8

1. An Islamic civ: I think the Ottomans have a certain advantage here.
2. An East Asian civ: obviously Korea led by Seondeok
3. A Western European civ: I say Netherlands, although the Celts or Portugal have good possibilities.
4. A pre-Columbian civ: Incas, and South America is underrepresented.
5. An ancient/classic civ: I say Carthage, but why not Babylon? I think this will be implemented in a thematic DLC with the Hittites.

Civs never seen before 3/8

6. A modern civ: Canada, certainly.
7. An Eastern European Civ: Georgia, led by an iconic female leader: Tamar. And Caucasus was never represented by civilizations.
8. An African civ: Ashanti, led by Yaa Asantewaa.

Alternative leader:

Isabella: A leader who makes Spain focused on exploration.
Click to expand...
This.

I'm not sure about the Inca's. It will be them or Colombia, but since we most likely will already have a modern nation civ, it could be Inca's (but i'm not really hopeful), and i now some argue that wonders don't tell much about civ choices, but Machu Picchu would have confirmed it, and so far we have no single clue about an inclusion of the Inca's (no single reference), and that worries me a bit (the only slight hint is the rumours of Isabella for over a year, and General Archive des Indies, hinting for a Spanish alternate leader).

I'm not sure about the Ottomans either. They could be replaced by a more original choice, Kilwa or Oman.
Carthage is going to be the Byzantines or the Hittites (geographical replacement of Ottomans), and i'm now thinking of the Hittites since it would be the only ancient / classic civ we would see.
African civ could basically be anyone, but I prefer Mansa Musa if they go for a West-African civ.

I don't know if that UI we have seen is a Feitoria, so i'm not sure about Portugal, and where to place them.
 
I still think firaxis will go with Helmut Kohl as second leader for Germany on the expansion.

The dutch are almost guarenteed to be in due to their famous golden age. Which fits well with new mechanics. I`m hoping to see a good naval unit and trade mechanics along with golden age buff.
 
The Mongols captured engineers and adopted the cultures of the civs they conquered.

Perhaps the Mongols having the ability to copy the other civs' unique abilities like Megaman or Kirby? That would help set the Mongols apart from the Scythians.
 
I share many ideas of my predecessors.

1. Korea, led by Seondeok (1) she is a new woman, (2) we see a crowned woman like her in the trailer.
2. Mongolia, led by Kublai Khan (1) we saw the keshik in the trailer, (2) he was not in Civ 5
3. Byzantium, led by Justinian I (1) he was not in Civ 5, (2) Byzantium was always an Addon Civ
4. Netherlands, led by Wilhelmina (1) she was a new woman, (2) she survived two world wars (Dark Ages), (3) Netherlands was always an Addon Civ
5. Ottomans, led by Mehmed II (1) he was not in Civ 5, (2) the Ottoman Empire was always a civ
6. Celtic, led by Boudicca (1) she was a woman, (2) The Celts were always an Addon Civ
7. Maya, led by Pacal (1) we need a south american civ, (2) The Maya were always a civ
8. A new african Civ
 
This will be rather imprecise, but whatever :p I have edited in some afterthoughts.

1. Korea
2. Mongolia
3. Portugal or the Netherlands - yeah, European trade civ. Also possible suprise inclusion: Genoa/Italian citystate
4. A native NA civ - I'd say Iroquois, but maybe they'd go with something more northern (instead of Canada)
5. Tamar of Georgia - I'm being serious here, it's a good opportunity for a new civ, female leader and "semi-european" and catering to the joke :p Okay, okay. Or else something different (eastern) European. Hungary comes to mind.
6. Mali or Ghana - African representative: one wasnt in civ5, the other is a new addition, so both good chances. Actually, Mali also can have wonders stuck to them easily in DLCs, so maybe i should replace them with Zulu. They are boring though, so I will stick with Ghana.
7. An ancient North African, Levante, or Mesopotamian civ - yeah, this is the most imprecise. I'd be hot for something like Phoenicians (rather than carthago), but an old acquaintance like Babylon (though I fear their field is already covered with sumeria) could also be nice. Someone mentioned Seljuk turks earlier and I really like that idea, though not exactly ancient.
8. Maya - their Wonder is already in the game, Inca can be added in a DLC along Machu Picchu
 
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I want to get my list in before the First Looks start to show up (most likely tommorow)

  1. Korea (Seondeok 632 AD - Female and under represented time period, plus other tie-ins)
  2. Mongols (I like the arguments for Kublai over Ghengis)
  3. Inca or possibly Myan or other South or Mesoamerican civ I am not as familiar with
  4. Western NA Native American Tribe (leaning south west due to TSL map, and also Delicate Arch)
  5. Ottoman/Turks or Byzantine (likely including the other as DLC or expansion 2 - leaning towards Ottoman due to a sighting of an Turkish minaret on the box cover art)
  6. Netherlands or Portugal (possible we could get both, but i'm leaning towards just the Dutch - i think they are going to do a better job of covering geography outside of Europe with these 8)
  7. New African Civ (or maybe Zulu or Mali, but my gut says it's someone new. i do see an argument against it being a new Civ, thanks to Nubia - but I can't see them completely bypassing the continent)
  8. Unexpected New Civ from left field (Canada, for me would fall into this category - but i don't actually think it will be them)
Alt Leader: Isabella of Castile - based almost entirely on Pre-release leader poster and the feeling that it will be a female leader of a Civ that curretnly has a male leader.

I am currently of the mind that they WILL do DLC's between expansion 1 and 2. And I would bet that at least one of the Civs that I have on my list, that was in Civ 5, will fall into DLC land instead of being part of the 8 civs in the expansion or waiting until expansion #2. In particular, looking at the list above, it would not surprise me if Mongolia or Inca falls into this category.

The biggest problem I have with my own list above, is that I do think there needs to be room for at least one ancient era civ in this expansion. I'm just not sure who that is, and where they fall into the list above. I also think that they need at least one 1600's leader (Champlain of Canada does fit nicely here). Currently, there is an odd timeline gap between Philip and Peter. I also expect one of the leaders to be from the early to mid 1900's but I'm at a loss to who/where it will be. I don't expect it to be anyone more modern then John Curtin, however.

One final note, with the possible exception of Canada, I do not think they will use another post colonial country in this expansion. In particular, I can't see them adding another modern South American country with that continent currently only represented by Brazil.
 
in thinking about the 9th alternate leader, I have to wonder what their chief motivating factor will be? Is it JUST to include someone they think takes advantage of a new mechanic? fan service? or correcting past mistakes? I think if you look at all of those criteria, France is the most likely candidate for an alt leader given Catherine de Medici has had the inarguable worst reaction of current leaders, and its not close. I think there's lots of options in French History to give folks who want a better representation of French history and culture, interact with new mechanics, and give some fan service while also meeting their penchant for including new leaders with big personalities. To me, Louis XIV meets this the best of all. He could fit well with the existing French uniques, and his leader ability (Bounty of the Sun King?) could have to do with money and governor titles which would fit with his history of dealing with the French aristocracy of the time. I also jive with suggestions thus far for Jeanne d'arc.

I'm inclined to think a lot of other suggestions (Lincoln, Elizabeth 1, Isabella, Caesar, etc) are more likely to come later in an alt-leader DLC pack with a "Greatest Hits" or "Old Favorites" theme since leader selection in 6 has largely been new leaders, or at the least not present in 5.
 
These civilizations have been in Civ5, Civ4, and Civ 3 but have yet to make it to Civ6.
  • Babylon
  • Byzantium
  • Carthage
  • Celts
  • Inca
  • Korea
  • Maya
  • Mongolia
  • Netherlands
  • Ottomans
  • Portugal
  • Zulu
I definitely think Byzantium will make it because they want more female leaders and they definitely had their golden age while everyone else was in the dark ages.
 
Chrisssand said:
These civilizations have been in Civ5, Civ4, and Civ 3 but have yet to make it to Civ6.
  • Babylon
  • Byzantium
  • Carthage
  • Celts
  • Inca
  • Korea
  • Maya
  • Mongolia
  • Netherlands
  • Ottomans
  • Portugal
  • Zulu
I definitely think Byzantium will make it because they want more female leaders and they definitely had their golden age while everyone else was in the dark ages.
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The good thing is I don't see how any of them won't eventually make it in some form. However I wouldn't mind trading Carthage if it meant Phoenicia got in. :shifty: Korea is basically confirmed due to hints that it will be revealed tomorrow and I believe that 4 or 5 of those might be in this expansion.
 
Chrisssand said:
These civilizations have been in Civ5, Civ4, and Civ 3 but have yet to make it to Civ6.
  • Babylon
  • Byzantium
  • Carthage
  • Celts
  • Inca
  • Korea
  • Maya
  • Mongolia
  • Netherlands
  • Ottomans
  • Portugal
  • Zulu
I definitely think Byzantium will make it because they want more female leaders and they definitely had their golden age while everyone else was in the dark ages.
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Realistically, I see about five of these getting in with Rise & Fall.

Edit: those five being...
  • Korea
  • Mongolia
  • Ottomans
  • Inca
  • Netherlands or Portugal
 
JacquesBquick said:
in thinking about the 9th alternate leader, I have to wonder what their chief motivating factor will be? Is it JUST to include someone they think takes advantage of a new mechanic? fan service? or correcting past mistakes? I think if you look at all of those criteria, France is the most likely candidate for an alt leader given Catherine de Medici has had the inarguable worst reaction of current leaders, and its not close. I think there's lots of options in French History to give folks who want a better representation of French history and culture, interact with new mechanics, and give some fan service while also meeting their penchant for including new leaders with big personalities. To me, Louis XIV meets this the best of all. He could fit well with the existing French uniques, and his leader ability (Bounty of the Sun King?) could have to do with money and governor titles which would fit with his history of dealing with the French aristocracy of the time. I also jive with suggestions thus far for Jeanne d'arc.

I'm inclined to think a lot of other suggestions (Lincoln, Elizabeth 1, Isabella, Caesar, etc) are more likely to come later in an alt-leader DLC pack with a "Greatest Hits" or "Old Favorites" theme since leader selection in 6 has largely been new leaders, or at the least not present in 5.
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YES. I really thought they would've gone with Loui XIV in the first place, he's probably the best fitting in the "big personalities" theme they had presented.


I would really like to see FDR as the second american leader. His ability would obviously be the New Deal, providing bonuses to get an Heroic Age after a Dark Age. Would be way more fun than having Lincoln or Washington again.
 
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