[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[TheSpaceCowboy]

People often ask how we select new leaders and civilizations to include in expansions – and we have nine new leaders and eight new civilizations which will be revealed over the coming weeks with Civilization: Rise and Fall. Well, it is a collaborative process that involves the whole team from art and design to production and even our legal department. We also ask ourselves some core questions as we select potential leaders:

• “Is this region of the world represented?”
• “Is this time in history represented?”
• “Is this represented/revered in previous Civilization games or totally new?”

We strive to have a diverse and varied selection of leaders, and it is also very important to us to include female leaders. Women are often underrepresented in traditional historical accounts, and recent scholarship has revealed more and more the fascinating and powerful women that lived between the lines of history textbooks. We also look for leaders whose history makes them particularly well-suited for a bonus related to new expansion systems.

Given the above criteria, the hints in the cinematic trailer, and the sleuthing and speculations in this thread, my own prediction (a far cry from my preference) is that we'll get this lamentable line-up:

1. Apache – Geronimo
2. Argentina – Eva Peron
3. Byzantium – Alexios I Komnenos
4. Dutch – Wilhelmina
5. Korea – Seondeok
6. Mongols – Kublai Khan
7. Portugal – Henry the Navigator
8. Zimbabwe

Notes:

1. If not the Apache, then the Ute under Black Hawk seem most likely, given the need to represent not merely an Amerindian Civilization, but to fill in the American Southwest. Geronimo has been leader of the Native Americans in Civilization IV, but the Apache would technically be new, and there are few other options to lead them.

2. If not Argentina, I think Simon Bolivar for Gran Columbia likely, with Argentina to follow in the next expansion, and the Inca in a possible third expansion or as DLC.

3. I’d prefer Julian the Apostate, or even Constantine the Great, but think a fully Medieval leader most likely. Moreover, he’d integrate well with a Dark Age/Heroic Age mechanic.

4. I’d Much prefer William of Orange, but considering the female quota and that he’d already been in the previous installment, Wilhelmina seems the consensus. Moreover, the scene from the trailer was of the Netherlands circa her reign.

5. Seondeok is all but guaranteed from what everyone says, based on the trailer.

6. Genghis himself would probably be too familiar from past inclusions, and, more relevantly, too similar mechanically to Tomyris.

7. I could see Henry as the one legacy choice for inclusion; not all of the leaders will be new.

8. Great Zimbabwe gives us a new Civilization in southern Africa, a part of the map not yet represented. Aside from Carthage, Africa seems sufficiently represented in my estimation, but it fits with Firaxis’ modus operandi. Zulu will come later.


Final count:

1 African
2 Asian
2 European
1 Near/Middle Eastern
1 North America
1 South American

3 Female
5 Male

 

[Ferocitus]

Maaate. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking for years would make a good Canadian civ. Focused towards exploration, forests, trade, and relations with city-states. Though I would have the voyageur/coureur replace the Trader unit rather than the Ranger, as that's what they were. They would go out and intermingle with natives, learn their languages and customs, and trade for their fur-- and it all started with Sam de Champlain, the OG coureur. Either way I think a Canadian civ could be really interesting, and it's a shame so many people are opposed to it.

But yeah a hockey arena is almost insultingly stereotypical.

Hockey is irrelevant in Australia, so my first thought about Canada is its sci-fi
shows. They have produced a lot of (admittedly B-grade) series over the last two
or three decades. I suppose TV production facilities wouldn't really be very
good unique buildings.

I can't think of much else that distinguishes Canada.
Moose instead of cattle?
Kevin Sorbo would make a good Canadian Gilgamesh.
Celine Dion and William Shatner as Great Musicians?
Imagine the terror this song would engender in the enemies of Canada!

 

[Morningcalm]

Let's instead suggest Zenobia of Palmyra will be in the expansion. If we say it enough we can at least drown out the Canada talk.

On another note, did Wilhemina of the Dutch actually do anything as queen? She was inspiring, sure, but what did she actually *do* as leader? She was in exile for most of her time, no?

 

[Aurelesk]

Joan of Arc might be fun to include, but not when Civ VI already has another female French ruler. I sincerely hope they don't have her as a leader in Rise and Fall. I don't associate her with a Golden Age as such, even if she brought France out of military defeat and so on. A better Golden Age ruler for France would be Charlemagne (Carolingian Renaissance), but he could fit Germany as easily as he could France, so he's not particularly likely to be included IMO.

I'm O.K. with Joan of Arc. And I'm O.K. with multiples female leader for one country (I rather want Elizabeth I as second leader of England than Henry VIII or Alfred the Great). And I'm O.K. for CivLeader to not actual be leader, but just influental people, for what they did and what they stand for us right now.

When I ask "famous leader of France", I get Napoléon, Louis XIV, Charles de Gaules and... Joan of Arc. No joke. Joan of Arc is best remember than the king she wanted to help: Charles VII. That's why I'm O.K. with Cleopatra: she tried to save her kingdom by seducing potentiel invaders. Well, that doesn't finish well for her but at least she's famous (I don't get the storm for this leader).

The problem with female leader was never their number, but the choice of non influental female leader to represent a whole nation. Nobody want a civilization represent by an obscure ruler, even if the leader is male or female. History is sexist and rarely made female leader, that's a fact and a tragedy. Catherine of Medicis wasn't a good choice from the start. If Joan of Arc wa the leader of France since the start, nobody will complain (in fact, the french maybe because her image is now used by the far-right nationalist party).

In one way, I love to see Eleonor of Aquitaine in the game, but the fact she was queen of France and then England make hard to her to join the game.

I'm O.K. for Jadwiga, even she's not the most influental (Casimir the Great was a better choice), but she's in the 3 best of Polish civilization and a great leader. Too bad she died so young. Tomyris wasn't the problem, but the idea that Scythia maybe prevent the Huns or the Mongols to make it in the game. We even have a storm because Victoria leads England and Elizabeth was a better fit!

Short: I'm ok for Joan of Arc, even if that's 2 female leader for one civilization.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Given the above criteria, the hints in the cinematic trailer, and the sleuthing and speculations in this thread, my own prediction (a far cry from my preference) is that we'll get this lamentable line-up:

1. Argentina – Eva Peron
2. Byzantium – Alexios I Komnenos
3. Dutch – Wilhelmina
4. Korea – Seondeok
5. Mongols – Kublai Khan
6. Portugal – Henry the Navigator
7. Zimbabwe

Notes:

1. If not the Apache, then the Ute under Black Hawk seem most likely, given the need to represent not merely an Amerindian Civilization, but to fill in the American Southwest. Geronimo has been leader of the Native Americans in Civilization IV, but the Apache would technically be new, and there are few other options to lead them.

I see no reason that the list is in any way "lamentable", but if there is a Native American civ in the xpac its gonna be the Iroquois, you don't introduce an alliance mechanic and then skip over the Iroquois, I mean that was kinda their thing.

Short: I'm ok for Joan of Arc, even if that's 2 female leader for one civilization.

I would be as well, but for France I think it is hard to bypass some of the other amazing leaders to do so.

I think Joan would make for an awesome leader in the game: young, rash, quick to anger, and so obstinately stuck to her convictions would be fun to meet and interact with these leader screens. And of course Louis would just be dapper as hell. This is the only thing I don't like about Catherine as the leader, its we can't have these two, simply for how they would be shown within the game.

 

[Ferocitus]

If Joan of Arc wa the leader of France since the start, nobody will complain...

I would. She was a loony who lasted a handful of years. There are better choices,
e.g. Napoleon. (And I owe him a kick in the head from my Civ5 games.)

We even have a storm because Victoria leads England and Elizabeth was a better fit!

I'd be Ok with Elizath I on historical grounds if there was a concomitant
economic penalty. She might seem inspirational to us, but IMO her administration
was marked by a series of appalling economic decisions and outcomes.

 

[indradiva]

I want to point out that Joan D'Ark is a Great general and her abilities are too unique to be easily replaced, besides that nobody said that GPs would be exchanged. The extra leader will be Isabella because she was on the leaderboard bingo and its predictions have been always true up today.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I want to point out that Joan D'Ark is a Great general and her abilities are too unique to be easily replaced, besides that nobody said that GPs would be exchanged. The extra leader will be Isabella because she was on the leaderboard bingo and its predictions have been always true up today.

Do we know that for sure? If that is the case then no Genghis, Boudicca or Simon Bolivar. Still Kublai Khan would be a good choice.

 

[Zaarin]

Do we know that for sure? If that is the case then no Genghis, Boudicca or Simon Bolivar. Still Kublai Khan would be a good choice.

No Genghis, Boudicca, or Bolivar would make me ecstatic; it also means no Napoleon.

 

[Guandao]

No Genghis, Boudicca, or Bolivar would make me ecstatic; it also means no Napoleon.

I'll miss teddy bear/Fat Albert Genghis Khan though. MITEJ ZHUGUI! SAM BAN NO!

 

[Zaarin]

I'll miss teddy bear/Fat Albert Genghis Khan though. MITEJ ZHUGUI! SAM BAN NO!

Well, the good news is that Kublai Khan is also generally portrayed as having a rather...generous figure. So we're still good on Mongolian teddy bears.

 

[indradiva]

Do we know that for sure? If that is the case then no Genghis, Boudicca or Simon Bolivar. Still Kublai Khan would be a good choice.

Well, I have no info that GP are going to be swapped out, at least not in this expansion. Also the recent trend has been in not keeping leaders/civs from Civ 5, because the devs want to make Civ 6 distinct frim Civ 5, maybe. But it doesn't mean that we won't see some of them in the future. Genghis, Simon and Napoleon have pretty generic abilities and can be easily substituted, so in a future DLC/expansion we might get them, though it's rather unlikely.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I'm quite thrilled with the hints of Mongolia, Korea, and Netherlands being in this expansion and I'm really hoping the Iroquois, Incas, and Ottomans will be in it too! As for some other choices I'd like (though I'd be happy with just about any choice like Mali, Babylon, etc.), I've been convinced by the earlier comments in this thread that Zenobia of Syria and Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana should appear. They would be the perfect choices for having the big personalities and abilities that tie in with the expansion!

 

[Meluhhan]

That would make a lot of sense. It would lead to my desire to have leaders who can lead multiple civs (Kublai would be able to lead both the Mongols and China; Alexander could double up with Greece). Fwiw, Korea will likely be in this expansion (though a Silla Queen). The Mongol who led the conquest of Korea was Ögedei Khan, who has not yet been depicted in Civ.

A leader leading multiple civilizations would certainly be an interesting prospect.

 

[Meluhhan]

Do it for Sid!!

Canada does merit an inclusion in the game for being Sid's home country if not for any other reason!

 

[KnightModern]

Genghis himself would probably be too familiar from past inclusions, and, more relevantly, too similar mechanically to Tomyris

maybe we finally can make mongol lean toward cavalry + siege instead of only cavalry

 

[Guandao]

My biggest nightmare lineup for Rise and Fall

1.Canada
2. Argentina
3. Gran Colombia
4. Nigeria
5. New Zealand
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. South Africa

Alt leader for Australia, Menzies

 

[Siptah]

My biggest nightmare lineup for Rise and Fall

1.Canada
2. Argentina
3. Gran Colombia
4. Nigeria
5. New Zealand
6. Mexico
7. Cuba
8. South Africa

Alt leader for Australia, Menzies

Not Eurocentric enough. Definitely.

 

[Guandao]

Not Eurocentric enough. Definitely.

Should I replace some of them with Belgium, Switzerland, Finland?

 

[Siptah]

Should I replace some of them with Belgium, Switzerland, Finland?

Hungary is popular as well. Or Romnia. And Beaker Culture is heavily needed.