mrpwn3r
Stereotypical Asian
Had the Empire of Japan defeated the United States at the Battle of Midway, how would have this have affected World War II and the world at large?
Debate!
Debate!
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Battle of Midway
- Thread starter mrpwn3r
- Start date
Perhaps move this to the history forum?
mrpwn3r
Stereotypical Asian
Oops. I'm new to posting in this area. Sorry.
Can a mod move this?
Can a mod move this?
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
Yeah, this would be more appropriate in the history forum, but I'll still answer it while it's here. I'll be pretty concise though, I'm about to start dinner. I'll elaborate later.
Basically, Japan's plan when it invaded SEA and attacked Pearl Harbour was to build an "Impenetrable Crescent" of islands, re-inforcing them to the point where the US and Britain simply couldn't afford to win the war, and would be forced to sue for peace. A lot like the Egyptian plan in the Yom Kippur War. If Japan had of won the Battle of Midway, this goal would have been much closer to achievement, but basically it would not have made much of a difference to the outcome of the war, simply the timing. Japan might have lasted longer than it did, but that's basically it.
Basically, Japan's plan when it invaded SEA and attacked Pearl Harbour was to build an "Impenetrable Crescent" of islands, re-inforcing them to the point where the US and Britain simply couldn't afford to win the war, and would be forced to sue for peace. A lot like the Egyptian plan in the Yom Kippur War. If Japan had of won the Battle of Midway, this goal would have been much closer to achievement, but basically it would not have made much of a difference to the outcome of the war, simply the timing. Japan might have lasted longer than it did, but that's basically it.
mrpwn3r
Stereotypical Asian
According to my AP book (God knows how inaccurate it is...), after the victory, Japan would have proceeded to attack Hawaii, conquer it, and force the United States to sue for peace (since the US had its hands full in Europe.) after this demoralizing blow.
Was this logistically possible against the United States? Would the US have given up after the loss of Hawaii?
Was this logistically possible against the United States? Would the US have given up after the loss of Hawaii?
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
1. Objective was to smash the US fleet by attacking a target they had to defend
Then if possible take midway itself once the US fleet had been beatern
2. Assuming that BOTH objectives had been taken it would have been a blow to the US but i doubt it was enough to force the americans to seek peace terms.
3. Japans industrial base was far to small and technologically already inferior to US by the time midway had already taken place. Yamatos plan was to use hes superior forces and veteran piolts to keep the US in a weaker position by seeking decisive battles
4. Unless Yamato intention was to continuely raid and attack US industrial base which it clearly was incapable of let alone a invasion. The best they could hope for was to delay US going onto the offensive in the pacific for possibly another year.
Then if possible take midway itself once the US fleet had been beatern
2. Assuming that BOTH objectives had been taken it would have been a blow to the US but i doubt it was enough to force the americans to seek peace terms.
3. Japans industrial base was far to small and technologically already inferior to US by the time midway had already taken place. Yamatos plan was to use hes superior forces and veteran piolts to keep the US in a weaker position by seeking decisive battles
4. Unless Yamato intention was to continuely raid and attack US industrial base which it clearly was incapable of let alone a invasion. The best they could hope for was to delay US going onto the offensive in the pacific for possibly another year.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
I largely agree with previous answers - it would delay the final defeat of Japan, nothing more.
Even if they obliterated the US fleet near Midway, I doubt they could support an invasion against digged-in defenders of Hawaii. We know how hard the island battles against the Japanese were lated in the war, and the Americans had full naval and air superiority by that time. Japan could have land some forces in Hawaii, perhaps, but they would most likely lose the battle. It would become a sort of a Pacific Stalingrad for the Japanese.
Leifmk
Deity
Your book is silly.
Japan didn't have the capability to successfully invade Hawaii and couldn't have done so even if Midway had been a crushing Japanese victory. Meanwhile, the USA had enough industrial strength and manpower to replace any losses in fairly short order, and their ship- and aircraft-building capacity was accelerating all through the war. The best thing the Japanese could hope for was to delay the inevitable by a few months, up to a year perhaps (and this wouldn't have delayed the Manhattan Project at all). Really, the IJN had already committed suicide by Pearl Harbor.
plarq
Crazy forever
Playing War In The Pacific, 1941-1945, by Matrix Games.
LesCanadiens
Deity
The United States would still have been able to muster its considerable industrial strength and smash Japan, it simply would have taken another year or two.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
People here are right, there is no way Japan could have successfully invaded Hawaii. The Australian military stopped Japan dead in New Guinea, which, while being larger than Hawaii, is still a hell of a lot easier to invade and conquer. The populated coastal regions anyway, I doubt the jungle would have been of much use to either side.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Agreed. By 1943, all a Japanese victory at Midway would have meant is a delay in launching the counterattack, and +/- 1 carrier (depending on exact casualties at Midway, and what sort of further battles would have occured in 1942) in a fleet that was going to get 15 of them comissioned in 1943 alone (6 Essex-class and 9 Independence-class) - and that'S just the relatively big ones.
Even assuming Japan had a complete victory at Midway (all US carriers lost, no losses to Japan), a year later they would already be starring at a US Carrier fleet that had a comfortable size, and many more ships coming - 6 heavy, 5 light, 15 escorts total (although some of these escorts would be stuck Atlantic-side), against Japan with 6 heavy, 2 lights, 9 escorts (or thereabout).
Even assuming Japan had a complete victory at Midway (all US carriers lost, no losses to Japan), a year later they would already be starring at a US Carrier fleet that had a comfortable size, and many more ships coming - 6 heavy, 5 light, 15 escorts total (although some of these escorts would be stuck Atlantic-side), against Japan with 6 heavy, 2 lights, 9 escorts (or thereabout).
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
The battle for new guinear or we know it by its track name kokoda was probably a close call for Australia including this governments decision to pull Veteran Australian divisions from the Med where they were fighting Rommel back to Australia where they were committed into Kokoda.
The key to that battle was the air battles over Port Morsbywhere RAAF P40s and Hudson bombers managed to destroy and defeat the Japanese sea invasion. This was meant to be a two pronged attack with the Japanese whom had fought they way from the North now in serious trouble with there long logistical lines and very limited supplies. The sea invasion meant to get and take the allied airfield and then link up the overland Japanese forces. The Australians now on top of there supply lines and finally with artillary support (25pounders) air support (Hudsons) had the advantage.
This of course would NOT have been possible had the coral sea battle not attritioned the japanese air wing. Had that happened the air carriers would have provided cover and added there bombers to the battle may well have gone the other way.
The key to that battle was the air battles over Port Morsbywhere RAAF P40s and Hudson bombers managed to destroy and defeat the Japanese sea invasion. This was meant to be a two pronged attack with the Japanese whom had fought they way from the North now in serious trouble with there long logistical lines and very limited supplies. The sea invasion meant to get and take the allied airfield and then link up the overland Japanese forces. The Australians now on top of there supply lines and finally with artillary support (25pounders) air support (Hudsons) had the advantage.
This of course would NOT have been possible had the coral sea battle not attritioned the japanese air wing. Had that happened the air carriers would have provided cover and added there bombers to the battle may well have gone the other way.
LesCanadiens
Deity
It was the Yankees who turned back the Japanese invasion fleet at Coral Sea, not you Aussies.
Moderator Action: Moved to History.
Leifmk
Deity
Also, it wouldn't really help Japan much even if they were able to hold on to a lot more real estate for a longer time, as long as the home islands would still be within B-29 range of at least one US airbase by late 1945.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Coral was a month before Midway, so it would still have happened as it did.
And further attacks in the region after Midway wouldn't have been so easy - the US still would have had at the very least (assuming, again, a clean sweep at Midway - not that likely) - two large carriers left, and could have conceivably transfered a few escort ones to provide light support as well.
Plus, of course, any attempt at making landings would have had to contend with the new, modern battleships of the North Carolina and South Dakota classes.
And further attacks in the region after Midway wouldn't have been so easy - the US still would have had at the very least (assuming, again, a clean sweep at Midway - not that likely) - two large carriers left, and could have conceivably transfered a few escort ones to provide light support as well.
Plus, of course, any attempt at making landings would have had to contend with the new, modern battleships of the North Carolina and South Dakota classes.
rilnator
Emperor
The Japanese had huge supply problems in New Guinea. While the Aussies got there Supplies from Australia via Port Morseby.
The US submarines were already starting to make their presence felt as were their airforces.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
You're absolutely right. I'm just saying that New Guinea is actually easier to invade than Hawaii, not that it's a simple, straightforward job.
I remember reading about the Battle of Coral Sea a long time ago. It's unique in military history, not only because it was the first ever naval battle in which there was no contact between opposing ships, but also because of the result. I don't remember the numbers, but basically Japan actually sunk or forced the scuttling of more or stronger vessels than she lost, BUT, the vessels Japan lost were far more crucial to them in the long term. Something along the lines of two carriers outright destroyed, and one damaged too badly to take part in Midway as planned, leaving the Japanese down three crucial ships.
This made it a very rare case of a tactical victory, that was also a strategic defeat. That doesn't happen often.
I remember reading about the Battle of Coral Sea a long time ago. It's unique in military history, not only because it was the first ever naval battle in which there was no contact between opposing ships, but also because of the result. I don't remember the numbers, but basically Japan actually sunk or forced the scuttling of more or stronger vessels than she lost, BUT, the vessels Japan lost were far more crucial to them in the long term. Something along the lines of two carriers outright destroyed, and one damaged too badly to take part in Midway as planned, leaving the Japanese down three crucial ships.
This made it a very rare case of a tactical victory, that was also a strategic defeat. That doesn't happen often.
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