BB-01 open succession game--fast space race

[Lord Emsworth]

• Builds: I see two courthouses. I assume, they are prebuilds for libraries? I think this is a bit early at this point of time, because libs only take 40s and the towns are still a bit small to really benefit from a lib?. In Akkad I would switch to another granary, and in Ashur perhaps another curragh (two curraghs stacked won't get attacked from barb galleys, I think?! The northern one could retreat and wait for 3 turns, before continuing as a duo) and then the library. It will still be on time.

Yeah, they are prebuilds for something useful. I didn't feel like building more units from these towns, although that was before the appearance of that Barb Galley. If you think a granary is needed more in Akkad, then why not. However, keep in mind that it will need an Aqueduct sooner or later. On the other hand, we could leave it small for some time, and have it produce food units.

And I don't think it is too early to think about Libraries. Isn't Literacy our next research project? It has to be. The AI never seems to be too keen on researching it, and it is the most useful to us once we have the Republic. So, it is merely about 10, maybe 12, turns away, if you substract the Anarchy period.

[*]Forbidden Pallace: How about 1S-2SW of Ninive? Here it can use the flood plain and a grassland for quick qrowth and three hills for production. First build would be a temple. I normally don't build temples, as they are a waste of shields, but in this particular case it's ok: we are paying only 30s, and it's the quickest way to get the flood plain and hills into range (don't want to walk more settlers the long way down there, when there are still first-ring spots unsettled), and also we will be able to run that city at a bigger population during the time where it builds the FP. Next builds would then be a courthouse and a market (part-rushed) and then it can generate a sufficiently high shield output to build the FP in a reasonable time.

I am kind of indifferent about the spot. But I wouldn't give it a temple. Rather a Lib, if you are after cultural expansions.

-----------------

What we haven't talked about yet is our Golden Age. We have a very convenient GA trigger in our arsenal. And what with the Indian and French Warriors running around, we could trigger it as soon as we have a proper government. Or wait a little for the Middle Ages. It should help with the FP too.

 

[Lanzelot]

Yes, libraries will be next, no question. But as we need only 40s for them, I'm not sure whether the prebuilds would "overrun" before we get Literature?! I can make an exact calculation, when I have the game open. But my feeling is, we still have a handful of turns where we can build something else.

I actually like the temple in the FP town more than a lib: takes only 30s, so can be had much earlier, and also that spot is probably too corrupt for a lib to be useful before the FP is complete?! For now I only want to give that spot as much happiness as possible (temple & market) so it is well prepared for the long period where it has to build the FP, meaning as many people as possible can generate shields. The plan is to let it grow to size 7 asap and perhaps even join a worker or two. Otherwise the FP takes forever. So in other words: the temple would serve two purposes at the same time: the necessary culture expansion and the city can be one pop point bigger. The Lib gives only the culture expansion. (The science boost will to a large extent be lost because of corruption anyway. The corruption there will probably already be over 50%. So even if the lib gives some benefit there, it'll be not a big priority. Getting the FP done faster would be more benefitial in my eyes.)

If the FP is finished before the GA (or can be finished in the first turns of the GA), we'll have a tremendous boost. However, I'm not completely sure yet about the best time for GA. In a recent game I waited until I had a fully functional core (libs, markets, aqueducts, so that all cities could be size 12) before triggering the GA, and then used the GA for getting the Universities done quickly. However, on Monarch this may be overkill and it may be better to start the GA earlier so as to get to 4-turn research earlier?! (And then hope to have Universities ready by the end of the GA to carry on with 4-turn research after its end?!)

 

[Kulko]

I just checked the numbers:
At current rate Akkad would reach 34 shields in 11 turns from now, but its growing at least once with a forest and there is a worker mining things. Although if your suggestion is switching to a Granary anyway then we can ecide that one when we know more. it has already more than 10s collected so building a worker or warrior in between is not an option anymore.

Ashur is already running at 3 spt, so 22 turns would leave us at 39s minimum, a bit too close for my liking, and we dont know our literature date yet. Curragh sounds fine with me. we ned to find another continent, so one more curragh wont hurt.

 

[Lanzelot]

Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. Ashur another curragh and afterwards the library, Akkad can be left "undecided" between granary and library until we know more.

 

[Lanzelot]

Here we go.

Spoiler :

Preflight:
First a little trading:
France: give Writing, get Iron Working.
India: give IW, get Mysticism and 34g
Inca: give IW, get 7g
Portugal: give CoL, get Horseback Riding and 43g
France: give CoL, get Mathematics
India: give CoL and Math, get nothing
Inca: give CoL and Math, get nothing
Everyone is now up to par, except that Portugal and we are up HB. Once Philosophy is secured, I'll trade HB around as well.

Neither iron nor horses are anywhere to be seen. This game is going to be fun...

Now moving left-over units. The northern curragh retreats, Uruk is founded. As there is an Indian warrior dangerously close to Ellipi and Uruk, I move the warrior from Ninive to towards Uruk.

We are currently making 26bpt while 110b are left for Philo. So I will Ellipi finish its worker in two and then hire a scientist for two turns there. 4x26 + 6 = 110! Perfect.

We have 158g at the moment and nothing to do with it, so I decide to establish embassies with Portugal (49g) and France (41g) as these seem to be the strongest nations at the moment, so they'll likely be our best trading partners (while India and Incaland will probably be absorbed sooner or later). And indeed: both have very good land and are running 100% science, so I'm pretty sure we can expect 1-2 more AA techs from them

T061, 1475BC: Ninive grows and produces worker. Rearrange for 5spt and start warrior.
Darn: a barb appears at Ashur, and no warrior there to defend. I have to abort the worker stack and send them to the interior. I would like to move one warrior from Babylon towards Ashur now, but I can't, as I can't refill the ranks in Babylon from Ninive now . And increasing the lux slider would definitely mean an extra turn on Philo. But usually barbs first fortify outside the territory for 2-3 turns before entering, so let's hope, he'll do that in this case as well.

T062, 1450BC: Darn, darn: the barb now enters our territory, one turn before the curragh in Ashur is finished! Can it be that the curragh fortified in Ashur has attracted him?! Well, let's hope he'll only take a few coins. (Should I establish another embassy now?! But in the first turns of a Republic it is always good to have some spare cash to cover the initial deficit.)



What is worse than the barb, however, is the Indian warrior. After Uruk and Ellipi were defended, he moved away from them towards the next undefended town, Ashur, as indicated in the screenshot. If an AI does this, it's pretty obvious, what they are up to: sneak attack! In a COTM a couple of years back, where I got unexpectedly sneak-attacked by an AI with whom I had had the best relations, I conducted a few tests after the game: I took an auto-save from the turn before the sneak attack and then tried, if anything would change their mind. Tried gifting hard things (some techs, all my gold lump sum), some per-turn things (gpt, a lux) and signed a RoP, a Mutual Protection Pact and an alliance against someone else: nothing prevented the sneak-attack next turn. So it looks like, if an AI is determined to attack, nothing will stop them.
This threat cannot be ignored. So I move one warrior out of Babylon and increase lux to 20%. Eridu is founded on the planned FP site and starts a temple for now. (We need more opinions on the temple/library question, please...!) Fortunately it makes 2 beakers, so we are currently making 29bpt (including the scientist in Ellipi), just enough for the 58 that are left for Philo. A settler finishes next turn in Babylon, then I can lower the lux rate again and should have no problem finishing Philo in one turn.

BTW: Bangalore got founded on the wheat floodplain...

Keep fingers crossed, hit enter and...

IBT: "Our work on Curragh has been destroyed". What else.
The Indians move outside our territory now.

T063, 1425 BC:
Babylon: settler -> warrior
Ninive: warrior -> worker

Our souther curragh discovers an island off the coast of Delhi.

At 100% science, we are now making 29bpt. Philo to be finished next turn.

T064, 1400 BC, interturn:
We discover Philo and then Republic!
France: give HB, get 25g. Gift Philo
Inca: gift HB and Philo
India: gift HB and Philo
Portugal: gift Philo

I keep Republic as trading opportunity. Start Literature. Revolt interturn. As we are religious, that way we lose only one turn of commerce and two turns of production.

T065, 1375 BC:
We are now a Republic!
Rearrange the MM. We need 20% lux. At 50% science we make 28bpt, run -11gpt and need 10 turns for Literature.

T066, 1350 BC:
Samarra founded on the coast. Starts lib-prebuild.
Ashur short-rushes warrior and will finish curragh next turn at 5spt.
A couple of towns have grown, deficit is down to -4gpt, so I increase science to 60%, Lit in 7.

T067, 1325 BC:
Ashur: curragh -> lib-prebuild

We smoke out a barb nest in the south for an extra 25g. We can maintain the deficit (-9gpt) now until the end of Literature.

T068, 1300 BC:
Babylon: Bowman -> settler. Babylon is now in a perfect 5-7 4-turn settler-cycle. The Bowman will go north to smoke out the barb nest that destroyed our curragh...

T069, 1275 BC:
Ninive: Bowman -> worker. It's now in a perfect 5-6 2-turn worker-cycle. With two more mines, we can move to a 5-7 settler cycle.

Discover iron not too far away SW.

T070, 1250 BC:
Increase science to 70%, Literature now due in 2 turns at -19gpt.
Discover silks far away SW...

BTW: the volcano next to the nearest gems has erupted a few turns ago. So I guess it is save now to settle next to it, once we erased Bangalore...

Furs are to be connected next turn, so the next player can reduce the lux slider a bit. Akkad will have over 50 shields by the time Literature comes in, so I guess we give it the granary?!

A road will be ready to NC 5 for the next settler from Babylon, so we can settle that town in 2 turns. NC 6 should be pushed 1N. It'll be a pure fishing village, needs a lib to get the fish into range, and then a harbor. The hill will give some production for these builds.

 

[templar_x]

it seems that the picture is broken...

 

[Lanzelot]

Not only that: the screenshots from Lisbon and Paris were gone, too?!? Uploaded everything again.

 

[Kulko]

Checked the save and the situation looks fine. good handling of the indian Crisis Lanzelot.

One question for the Babylon Settler family, is this the normal operation, that it switches fields with Uruk every other turn, or how is it meant to be run.

I agree on NC 6, although I am not sure if it is really our next priority. Maybe a push in the direction of france to add another ring2 town will be more helpful?

I prefer the temple too. if we get the FP earlier because we can work one more plain, it will repay the lib easily. And the lib is build in a few turns once the FP is ready.

As for the GA how to reach 4-turn research fast is one of the things I want to learn in this game, so I have no real idea here.

BTW whats our next research project after Lit? Map making for getting to the other continent fast, or currency to trade it to the AI once they got MM and Poly?

 

[templar_x]

i am quite sure that the Indian warrior was heading for the barb, not your empty town.
t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Babylon/Uruk: I think this was necessary only for the very first cycle. Starting with the next cycle, it should be possible to run the SF as a "no-brainer", i.e.: always 5fpt and 6,6,7,7 shields (and making sure the forest is free for two shields on growth).

Can't say much about research yet. Depends on what the curraghs discover and what the AIs discover... However, I think that marketplaces have low priority atm, as long as we don't have 3 luxes. Harbors could be important soon (especially for Ashur and NC 6) and aqueducts of course. I think Map Making is very popular with the AI, so perhaps we could do construction and hope to trade for MM?

Or do MM ourselves, if we need harbors urgently?!

Towns towards the French sounds ok, we should grab as much territory there as possible, because I want to keep peaceful relations with the French (they are a potentially strong research partner) and that land is quite good over there. Let the Indians settle the territory to our south... the more towns they found there, the better for us...

However, if you expand into the West, make sure to get roads into place first. As long as sending settlers west would still take ages, it's better to settle the close-by spots like NC 6. I've started building a road towards our FP town, this can be used by settlers as well once it is finished and extends a bit beyond Eridu.

 

[templar_x]

I took half an hour or so and played a start with your save, but only with the early and closer 4-turner instead of the later 2 6-turners. Anything else about the start i did just like you did here. The game was played without planning, spreadsheet, checking the MM or the trading opportunities every turn… nothing like that. So it does not show how good the figures at 1250bc could be. Still, here a comparison:

Real numbers:
8 towns
22 pop
7 workers
2 bowmen, 3 curraghs
No Lit yet.
49 gold

My numbers by comparison:
11 towns
24 pop
1 settler, 8 workers, 1 slave
3 warriors, 1 curragh
No Con, Curr, Poly
Sling i think in 1500bc, in Rep. Lit last turn or so. Know 4 civs. Curr in 8 turns. FP prebuild and 2 libs prebuilds.
286 gold
(if you look at the save, forget the city planning and everything. I simply planted towns wherever my settlers were&#8230

Both games were surely played far from optimal. Still, the numbers are quite different. I believe the early 4-turner (with enough worker turns it could even later be changed into 2 6-turners, but simply not right from the start) is significantly stronger here.

i think that test may offer a higher value for BB than if i had taken a turnset. if you have got any more questions, just ask.

t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Well, now you did what I had planned to do when reaching the QSC date (1000 BC)...

Yes, our mistakes were severe and plentiful. With "optimal" play this result can probably still be improved, let's say 12 towns compared to our 8, that means even at this early stage our empire could already be 50% bigger... Then take the "exponential growth curve" into account, and everyone should get a good picture of by how much we'll miss the "perfect" result...

 

[Kulko]

Before we start commiting ritual mass suicide, whos up getting us further into the mess?

@ Lanz/templar your point is of course fully valid.

And if somebody rather wants a fresh start to have a real go at it, thats also fine with me.

 

[Lanzelot]

No restart...! We'll succeed together or...

whos up getting us further into the mess?

I think Elephantium is next. (If we do have any particular "order", that is.) Ready to go?

 

[templar_x]

Well, now you did what I had planned to do when reaching the QSC date (1000 BC)...

you can still do that in order to see how much difference a really well played start would mean. i thought, and only had so much time, that even sloppy playing should show quite clearly what the chief one or two changes would do to this start.

t_x

 

[brasilbear]

back online for a few days... I'm here: Cuiaba, MT, B razil meaning that internet is sometimes ...shakey.

does anyone have an i've got it?

 

[CommandoBob]

lurker's comment:

(BtW: what is the #1 launch date for Monarch, standard map? Just so that we have something for "orientation"... )

Top ten Hall of Fames Spaceship Victories, Standard Map Size, Monarch Difficulty

1. Tone 1020 AD Russia
2. eldar 1240 AD Sumeria
3. Kaiser_Berger 1260 AD Russia
4. del62 1290 AD England
5. eldar 1365 AD Byzantines
6. Elear 1375 AD Russia
7. Bartleby 1450 AD Sumeria
8. Scratcher 1595 AD Russia
9. BlackBetsy 1615 AD Russia
10. RandomInsanity 1806 AD China

I figure you guys can get it done by 1300 AD.

 

[Lanzelot]

does anyone have an i've got it?

Nope, it's still up for grabs, so go ahead. (Hope you took Civ with you...!)

 

[Kulko]

So our official roster would look like this?:
Lanzelot - just played
brazilbear - up?
Elephantium - on deck
Kulko
Lord Emsworth

Since Brazilbear seems to be bearhugging at home, that would make it Elphantiums turn?

 

[brasilbear]

So our official roster would look like this?:
Lanzelot - just played
brazilbear - up?
Elephantium - on deck
Kulko
Lord Emsworth

Since Brazilbear seems to be bearhugging at home, that would make it Elphantiums turn?

Let someone else take it, i just tried to pull out the civ3 disc and the wife decided it was vacation so no electronics until wednesday night