BC gunpowder beeline

stefista

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
64
Location
Chicago, IL, USA
Reading these forum threads about muskets, I can tell that despite popular misconconception, they can completeky own. The trick is to have them early enough to really use them, and to really use them against medieval units.

Look at the synergies: Ottoman Janissary has bonuses vs archery, mounted and meelee (I.e. Older, weaker units); Ethiopian Oromo has free drill promos (for not taking as much damage when mopping up older, weaker units); French musketeer has 2 moves (for quickly attacking older, weaker units); Celtic Dun gives free guerrill promos (again, for quickly attacking older, weaker units in hill cities). Even without a musket UU or a UB synergy, its a unit with a higher base strength than anything from before except knights, which ignores walls and castles, and for which no earlier unit has a strong counter.

In short, muskets and musket UUs are great when you can get them early. This post is about trying to find out how early you can possibly get them. And I don't just want to win liberalism and take gunpowder when everyone else has knights, no...I want it way earlier.

Now, researching deep down the tech tree in Civ IV is not usually a worthwhile endeavor because it quickly becomes apparent that you have to have a broad base of abilities in each era before you can gerenate the beakers to learn the next, but in the early game, bulbs and the Oracle represent a way around this.

Muskets require gunpowder and do not require any resource. Gunpowder requires Guilds or Education. These correspond to two short tech paths (and many long ones).

To go via Education:
Research writing, mathematics, and all the religious techs up through priesthood and monotheism.
Now a great prophet will bulb theology.
Oracle paper, two great scientists will bulb education.
Now manual research gunpowder.

To go via Guilds:
Get religious techs through monotheism and priesthood.
Get Bronze working, Iron Working, and metal casting.
A great prophet will bulb monarchy if you don't have writing, so bulb, research or Oracle Monarchy.
Get writing.
Now, provided that you do not have mathematics, successive great engineers will bulb machinery, feudalism, guilds, and gunpowder.

I have not had enough time to play enough games to get this to work by either method. What I have figured out is what doesn't work.

On the first path, manual research of education after the first education bulb is likely to simply be two slow without currency or code of laws. I am close to concluding that the education path is infeasible, even with many great scientists (and I discuss below how to get them) because there are two many gaps in the tech path where a bulb is unavailable do the order of preferences or the type of great person required and it is too slow to do manual research without a broader tech base.

On the second path, what doesn't work is to try to chop out the pyramids quicklu to start producing great engineers...the 'mids take a lot hammers, and by the time you get them and start making GPP, time has already adavanced significabtly.

So I have concluded that the gunpowder gambit has to mean beelining metal casting right from the get-go. This works best on a start with grain resources because you can use agriculture as your first worker tech as your path to pottery, which is a prereq for metal casting.

You can then chop/whip out forges in every city (shoot for 4-5 cities) and start getting GPPs. If each city starts running an engineer shortly after the last to start, then you can start a pipeline in which each successive great engineer comes out almost as quickly as the first one. It also possible to do this with scientists via libraries or priests via temples if you can get a religion. For this gambit, artists and merchants are off the table because we can't afford to go get drama or currency, not just because of research time, but because getting those techs would mess up the bulbing preferences.

I wonder if there are any threads out there on this type of great person pipelining as compared to a single GP farm.

So to get gunpowder quickly, you need about 4-6 great engineerts. Each bulb will be a bit short of completing tech, so you can either bulb again or finish manually. The only requirement to keep in the back of your mind is that you can't get mathematics or your great engineers will want to bulb construction and then engineering.

The beauty of this method is that you get a single kind of great person and you get it from a specialist through a building and not froma wonder. This means that you needn't be thje first to metal casting, but you probably will because it's not usually a priority, and that you can generate GP in multiple cities. You can also turn the GPP off, if necessary to manage production.

Also, the only sort of expensive tech here that can't be bulbed by a great engineer is Monarchy, which can be bulbed via a great prophet, realistically oracled, or researched manually within a reasonable time.

Again, I have not tried enough games to get this to really work. I have done alternative methods and found unexpected problems. I would appreciate hearing what the community has to say both about bulbing one's way to gunpowder in the BCs and about pipelining great people versus concentrating the points in a GP farm.
 
Ah, the humble musketman. It lives a sad life, eclipsed by the glory of its cousin the rifleman. Though it's role on the battlefield is unclear, I still hold this unit dear to my heart.

Muskets CAN be good, this is not the way to use them. The main problem is that longbows fortified in a city are just so strong- pure muskets usually don't have a chance against them. The usual way to use them is to combine them with trebuchets or cannons, and let the siege do a lot of the work. If you're hoping to use them as some sort of superunit like rifleman can be, you pretty much have to get them before the AI has longbows, and that's almost never possible.

A better way of using muskets, I think, is to draft them. With nationalism, you can get really large numbers of muskets, really fast. This works best if you've got a lot of small cities. I posted a game here where I drafted a large number of muskets with the celts, and gave them the guerrilla 3 promotion. That way I had a large, fast moving force, with a good chance to withdraw, so they could attack even longbows in hill cities, and take just reasonable losses.

Also, Janissaries are pretty bad. The way the combat mechanics work means that you're better off with just a combat promotion, most of the time, for attacking longbows in cities.
 
You're not going to bulb deep down through guilds using engineers in the BCs or even the very early ADs. Some deity players can get lib by then and conceivably muskets (which can then be used on the AI < 500 AD). That would work, but you have to wonder if it's the best use of your tech lead. Even on emperor pre-500 AD longbows aren't exactly shocking, beyond that it is pretty common unless you've been attacking/crippling the target.

For example, 700-1000 AD cuirassers seem a lot more effective than 300-500 AD muskets, if you're running deep beelines. I never seem to be able to get any of this working properly, and wind up best off just expanding to a good chunk of cities and abusing trades best I can with minor bulbs.

I do find muskets a solid cannon complement though.
 
A little longer than your average post :D but once again a classic one liner :goodjob:

We used to only get a one word reply. Cottages Dave's universal cureall :lol:

8 catapults and 8 swordmen is better than 9 muskets.
This is the CE version, based on a hammer comparison.

For SE players the equation is a bit different

8 catapults and 8 swordmen [whipped] are worse than 24 muskets [drafted] :)

Muskets are excellent troops and you only need remember two words to make them work, Drafting and Cannons. Cannons provide the firepower and muskets capture and hold the cities. Whipping cannons and drafting muskets is a marriage made in heaven for the middle game SE player.

I find the easiest way to get to that happy situation is to do the standard Liberalism route through Philosophy and Education lightbulbs, taking Nationhood as the free tech and then research Gunpowder while building universities. That route seems to sort out the military needs and gives a good research basis once Oxford is in your science city. A direct beeline to Gunpowder gives you an early strong military but a weak economy. Wars are won by the strength of your economy not your army.
 
Early muskets are great but extremely difficult at higher levels.

Benefits: They ignore walls and can destroy even protective longbows with a little support. There are many UUs that are powerful as mentioned in the OP. They have no rock/paper/scissors counter unit and rule until knights appear.

Problems: They do not get CR promotions and thus not exactly the best city attackers, Maces are much better. Also, no other units promote to it while battle hardened axes/swords can become Maces.

Regarding the swords/catapults versus drafted muskets, a bit unfair there are the time periods are too different. In Daves example he needs only construction and iron working, the OP only requires gunpowder via a difficult bulbpath, however drafted muskets require both gunpowder and nationalism.

To me it's just not worth it to get gunpowder that early. Best to get machinery/civil service for maces/crossbows and get Bureacracy and chain irigation to boot.
 
Did you compare that? You would be surprised ;)

Ah, the combat promotion versus CR promotion discussion. It is situational but give me the CR maces that can get promoted to CR rifles/infantry later on.
 
drill muskets are better than maces with CR.

Less collateral damage + ignoring walls + no hard counter = win

That being said, the best use I've found for muskets is to combine them with cannons and win the game.
 
Yeah, like others pointed out muskets on their own are not worth a beeline. Nationhood + Muskets on the other hand is a decent combo and really shines with a proper siege unit backing it up. Be sure to get the construction of your Globe Theatre city started before you bulb to Liberalism to get the most out of your drafting advantage. Draft the muskets while teching to Cannons, then excecute an intensive Cannon whipping round for maximum effect.
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback so far: standard strategy is standard for a reason. Anyway, I am determined to do this at least once.

One more narrow question: what about pipelining great people as a general proposition in the early game? It seems to me this is the fastest way to generate them when there is a limited number of buildings that open up specialist slots.
 
Thanks everyone for the feedback so far: standard strategy is standard for a reason. Anyway, I am determined to do this at least once.

One more narrow question: what about pipelining great people as a general proposition in the early game? It seems to me this is the fastest way to generate them when there is a limited number of buildings that open up specialist slots.

What exactly are you asking here?

Great Artists, Scientists, Merchants are the easiest to pop once you get caste system as you have an unlimited number.

Prophets are not that hard due to early/cheap wonders and the number of slots opened with temples assuming you have varying religions and of course the Egyptian/Arab UBs help.

Engineers require the Pyramids, a forge (thus metal casting) and alot of luck to get an early one let alone several.

Great Spies require the Great Wall and courthouses.

Most will agree that Great Scientists are the easiest with Merchants (due to several good early wonders) are next.

Personally I prefer Great Scientists for numerous Academies, next is an early Great Merchant for that massive trade mission. Prophets power has dimmed to me as I have advanced in difficulty, every level seams to shift the power from prophets to scientists.
 
I wouldn't beeline normal muskets, but Oromos/Jans are worth it. GS bulbs > GE bulbs, so I've done the path through education, go to gunpowder and then grabbing Naitonalism from Liberalism, and I've gotten Jans before an opponent got longbows. And if you can do that, you don't even need catapults. They're worth the beeline. But normal muskets? Meh. As mentioned, they're not a whole lot better than macemen.
 
War ( at least the ones you should be getting in) are about taking cities. In that part of the game, that means killing lonbowman. For that matter, muskets aren't even significantly better then previous units: Knights, Macemans, Trebuchets. The main use for muskets is certainly as cannon escort/finishers.

But, if you are playing a difficulty level that lets you oracle paper, I'm certain you can win the game with almost any strategy... just don't think muskets are optimal.
 
War ( at least the ones you should be getting in) are about taking cities. In that part of the game, that means killing lonbowman. For that matter, muskets aren't even significantly better then previous units: Knights, Macemans, Trebuchets. The main use for muskets is certainly as cannon escort/finishers.

But, if you are playing a difficulty level that lets you oracle paper, I'm certain you can win the game with almost any strategy... just don't think muskets are optimal.

I think he was playing immortal and had an industrious leader. It's like a feudalism slingshot only with less beakers and an early stonehenge. The problem is you're nowhere close to drafting, I personally think code of laws would be better, since you can bulb philosophy theology and paper
 
I do find muskets a solid cannon complement though.
Cannons...now there's something worth going deep in the tech tree to get. I should admit that I do beeline muskets when playing the ottomans, because Jannisarries are a super-unit if you get them in time to go after a couple mid-size civs before they get muskets. But plain muskets don't have the firepower to really handle longbows absent significant siege, making them unworthy of beelining early on.

I will beeline for units...I regularly go deep for Assembly Line and Industrialism, as well as rifling. But I don't think standard muskets are worth it, and musketeers/oromos get their bonuses against all comers and not just older units, making it questionable there too. Of course, in prioritizing steel, one must get muskets, so I do tend to use them. Their upgrade is so close in tech, and so much superior to them that they do tend to go obsolete fairly quickly though.
 
This is the CE version, based on a hammer comparison.

For SE players the equation is a bit different

8 catapults and 8 swordmen [whipped] are worse than 24 muskets [drafted]

Aside from spouting nonsense like CE and SE, it's hard to imagine why that comes up. OP is concern a deep, all-out musket beeline. That approach isn't getting nationhood, so even a AEIROSAJSF economy won't be able to draft anything for a while. Nationhood first of course slows down gunpowder access. 24 muskets will work against low to somewhat-high level AIs, but the losses will be bad w/o siege. As you say, musket/cannon works but it's easy enough to get those irrespective of tile improvements, at least for me.

Ah, the combat promotion versus CR promotion discussion. It is situational but give me the CR maces that can get promoted to CR rifles/infantry later on.

CR gunpowder is overrated. It's weaker in the field (where if you use it with siege is where you really want it to shine) and isn't even THAT much stronger on average vs city defenders unless at parity. However, at parity you have a good chance of losing them anyway, unless you use siege which again makes advanced CR promos of questionable use. They're crappy left behind as defenders too.

One can get pretty close to steel or lib steel outright with some backtrades on a standard lib run, depending on how many people there are to broker tech. I'm just as likely to go cuirassers (less beakers) but cannons are an excellent troop type and if you can get something to cover them (cavalry are a problem) they'll last you a long time as attack units.
 
Top Bottom