Beating Deity exploit-free. Restriction gameplay

[andrewlt]

I'm amused by the fact that building any kind of mounted unit, not turning off the city states, building lots of small cities, and trading anything with the AI civs are now all being considered exploits. So all we have to do is tie our own hands militarily, remove one of the core elements of the game, deliberately not use the optimum economic strategy, and play Always War with no diplomacy against the AI. *THEN* we'll get a fair challenge from Civ5.

Says something about this game's design, I think.

You forget going for anything other than a small empire cultural victory, because that's the intended victory condition the game was designed for.

 

[bryanw1995]

I'm amused by the fact that building any kind of mounted unit, not turning off the city states, building lots of small cities, and trading anything with the AI civs are now all being considered exploits. So all we have to do is tie our own hands militarily, remove one of the core elements of the game, deliberately not use the optimum economic strategy, and play Always War with no diplomacy against the AI. *THEN* we'll get a fair challenge from Civ5.

Says something about this game's design, I think.

maybe the civ6 team will get you more involved so that we'll have a better game next time.

 

[Slowpoke]

Not to forget:
Don't do anything that might be considered a good strategy.
Play dumb.
when in doubt, send your weakest unit against the most powerful unit the AI owns and generally speaking dont use any of the boni the game offers you.

Heh, reminds me of lemmy's advisor play with me

 

[Buccaneer]

I agree with the simple settings of random map, random personalities, standard number of civs/cs, size and speed, but adding an unbiased start and picking a civ that doesn't have a powerful UU. I don't recall something about "scarce" resources, that would be good too. The others listed are fine too but I don't think an unbiased map would be an exploit (unless islands). However, I would chose a map (like Lakes or Great Plains) that fills up the earth, thus no navy.

 

[stii]

When picking your civ is an exploit I wonder what the limit is.

Makes me wonder how hard a game would be with all automated workers and city production.

 

[Irgy]

I'm amused by the fact that building any kind of mounted unit, not turning off the city states, building lots of small cities, and trading anything with the AI civs are now all being considered exploits. So all we have to do is tie our own hands militarily, remove one of the core elements of the game, deliberately not use the optimum economic strategy, and play Always War with no diplomacy against the AI. *THEN* we'll get a fair challenge from Civ5.

For what it's worth, of all of the things I listed (which match up with the things you list in the quote), none are things I would personally actually call exploits. The point really is that the game is too easy, and to make a game that's difficult enough to be enjoyable you need to artificially hamstring yourselves. The best places to start are the sorts of things that you'd hope will get fixed in a patch eventually, which is what I see this thread as a search for.

The problem really is that giving the AIs bonuses is a poor replacement for making them play well. In Civ 4 BTS3.19 at least the AIs play well enough that with a whole stack of bonuses they're quite competitive. In Civ 5 it seems that they can given the AIs as many bonuses as could seriously be considered practical, and they're still poor enough at the game to make it too easy. They can't just keep stacking on bonuses as a replacement for writing good AI code, at some point they really need to make them act more intelligently.

 

[avandol]

I assure you though, that the opinions voiced here affect only the smallest part of the game crowd. Most Civ players never play above Prince.
So while a Deity level player finds it not challenging enough, the host is still very happy (overall, starting bugs left out here).

The only thing that should be adjusted is the AI on levels Emperor and up.
I agree though, that shouldnt be done by heaping boni on top, but by improving the AI routines and expert system decisions. Which is complex, I know, I programmed some myself. But it should at least be as good as Civ 4.
That you cant copy that is clear, after all its a whole different set of tactics and strategy.

On lower difficulty levels its just fine though.

Meaning, we're not talking about exploits, not at all. We are talking about weaknesses on top level difficulty games.

 

[avandol]

* For example, you could add a routine that adds decision points for horse resources seen, category of terrain around city and age message (You've entered classical times...)
So when you reach a certain threshold, all warriors are auto upgraded to spearmen (when cash is available). Or you give the AI a Spearman right from the start and put emphasis on those, since they are stronger than Warriors anyway.

That alone would prevent Horse Rushing.
* Enforce a stronger ZoC on Emperor and above
* Make maritime City states less common and reduce their boni on higher difficulties.

Just some ideas to make it more challenging with easy measures.

If you add a bit more intelligence in wartimes and better usage of ranged units it would become challenging indeed.


---------

But still, this only affects a small number of players, so dont hold your breath.

 

[lissenber]

RULES

1. I am not allowed to ignore happiness. If my happiness goes over -10 then i must do something about it.

2. Large or a Huge map in order to avoid cheap fast victories (horse rush and such).

3. Pangaea. AI doesn`t understand naval warfare. Enough said.

4. I am not allowed any early rushes. I can still defend if another civilization decides to take me out.

5. Stealing workers from city states during early game is not allowed.

6. Selling luxuries for money is not allowed. Trade luxury for a luxury is allowed.

7. Playing OP civs not allowed. I will probably play Germany and disable barbarians so that i get a civ with a blank UA.

8. No city razing after accepting a peace offer that gives me multiple cities.

9. No city selling. Gifting allowed.

10. No beelining, no mad scientists.

11. Max 1 city state ally, preferably not maritime

12. Never trade my open borders for money. I am, however, allowed to buy open borders from another civ if i choose so.

13. 2 research agreements can exist at one time. 3 at most. I cannot declare war right after making a research agreement.

14. No strategic resource exploit

15. No puppet-city fueled culture strategy.

BALANCE ISSUES

1. No random seed. No reloading.

2. Sparce resources. This is more of a preferance of mine.

3. No ancient ruins. Helps avoid riflemen and tanks during the ancient era.

4. No barbarians. Less gold for my empire and no free exp for my units.

..............................................................................................................

I think something`s still missing. I wonder what i should add. Oh, ofcourse! How could i forget .

Not to forget:
Don't do anything that might be considered a good strategy.
Play dumb.
when in doubt, send your weakest unit against the most powerful unit the AI owns and generally speaking dont use any of the boni the game offers you.

I am going to start playing today. However, these aren`t final as they can still be changed if i missed some stuff.

 

[avandol]

keep us updated!

 

[Rashkaar]

=lissenber;9807959]RULES

1. I am not allowed to ignore happiness. If my happiness goes over -10 then i must do something about it.

Why? -33% combat penalty applies.

2. Large or a Huge map in order to avoid cheap fast victories (horse rush and such).

Why? I'd prefer a no "horse rush" requirement. It'd be useful to start getting towards universally accepted rules, many of us can't play >standard.

3. Pangaea. AI doesn`t understand naval warfare. Enough said.

Agreed. Altho you do risk runaway AI on other island, limiting impact of naval warfare issues.

4. I am not allowed any early rushes. I can still defend if another civilization decides to take me out.

Yep. Remove 2?

5. Stealing workers from city states during early game is not allowed.

Agree to an extent - but I disagree cutting off CS' completely, as you intend. They can be powerful allies in an intended sort of way (such as allying neighbours of your [potential] enemies, causing distraction in case of war).

The 33% research benefit is also useful, especially if playing a small-empire strat (which arguably is tougher from the get-go)

6. Selling luxuries for money is not allowed. Trade luxury for a luxury is allowed.

Perhaps cap luxury trade at 150g would be better than disallowing it completely?

7. Playing OP civs not allowed. I will probably play Germany and disable barbarians so that i get a civ with a blank UA.

Nice. I'd prefer if only some civs aren't allowed tho, including only the seriously OP ones.

8. No city razing after accepting a peace offer that gives me multiple cities.

9. No city selling. Gifting allowed.

Common sense valuation not an option? Selling a size 10 city in the middle of enemy territory, sensible to purchaser, might be worth it. Selling tundra cities another story.

I'd also recommend not to allow gifting of cities not in immediate vicinity of purchasing AI. It's a bit ridiculous to sell/gift a city you just conquered next to Alex, which will inevitable cause war/protect you against his wrath.

10. No beelining, no mad scientists.

What is the definition of beelining in this regard?

11. Max 1 city state ally, preferably not maritime

See above. Goes along with puppet-state abuse, and CS allies do have intended benefits. Limiting # of maritime makes sense, not so much for culture/militaristic.

12. Never trade my open borders for money. I am, however, allowed to buy open borders from another civ if i choose so.

Trading OB in cases where the AI has a distinct advantage might make more sense, but I can see why disallowing it completely makes sense.

13. 2 research agreements can exist at one time. 3 at most. I cannot declare war right after making a research agreement.

... or initiating RA when you "know" you'll be declared upon soon.

14. No strategic resource exploit

... or any other sort of exploit

15. No puppet-city fueled culture strategy.

Goes without saying.

Good luck with your game - and I hope there'll be more input towards this list, we really could use a set of rules for beating deity that also caters various legitimate strategies (such as CS focused strats not exploiting imbalances; I prefer those, but I grant it's hard to avoid the issues).

Apologies in advance for any idiotic mistakes/oversights I made in my comments..

 

[lissenber]

Why? -33% combat penalty applies. Yes, but by ignoring happiness i get more tech rate and with more tech rate i get more advanced units

Why? I'd prefer a no "horse rush" requirement. It'd be useful to start getting towards universally accepted rules, many of us can't play >standard. To be honest, i like huge maps. Even though i have to play them in strategic view.


What is the definition of beelining in this regard? Having Infantry before Riflemen and/or such things.

... or initiating RA when you "know" you'll be declared upon soon. A good point but sometimes (read almost always) the AI can be very unpredictable.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[lissenber]

keep us updated!

I intend to make a seperate thread and then post my whole game so it can be viewed easily on the 1st page. But here`s a little teaser. Not sure how this game will go but in case it doesn`t go well i am going to try and start a new. Not that there are any bad omens as of yet.

Opening moves:

I begin my game with these settings:

Spoiler :

Start is not too bad. 2 luxury resources next to a river. Normally i would start building a worker but at the moment i have no good tile that has both food and hammers. Instead i choose to build a scout to speed up my exploration.

Spoiler :

My city finally reaches the population of 2. Even though my second scout isn`t done yet, i switch to building a settler. I have also found The Grand Mesa (not seen on the screenshot).

Spoiler :

This screenshot isn`t a very important one. Just shows that i have found two wonders and have researched archery. Next i start researching mining.

Spoiler :

My second city is now on the map. England and Babylon are dangerously close to me so i decide to build an archer for defense in my second city. The first city will continue building settlers.

Spoiler :

Fortunately there are 2 choke points that i can use against Babylon.

Spoiler :

This screenshot simply shows some tiles and expansion opportunities around me.

Spoiler :

I pick the liberty tree.

Spoiler :

If you guys want to play the same game and see if you can do better than me then i`ll upload the turn 0 savegame.

 

[Slowpoke]

Hey you're actually trying it? Well I would suggest going for archery or iron working quick. Normally to fend off early deity wars you sell luxuries and buy a horse. You're gonna need something that's quickly buildable.

 

[Benzidrine]

I think having the monitor on is an exploit, play the game the way it was intended by sound alone.

 

[lissenber]

Hey you're actually trying it?

Yeah, that was the plan

Well I would suggest going for archery or iron working quick. Normally to fend off early deity wars you sell luxuries and buy a horse. You're gonna need something that's quickly buildable.

You needn`t worry about me. It`s not my first Deity game. I quickly sent four units to the chokepoints between me and Babylon and sent sufficient defense to my nearest city to England. So far i have avoided war for over 350 turns. My only problem is my tech rate but i guess that will improve by time.

 

[CrimsonEdge]

Well surely you have to exploit something to get the money to run 10 research agreeements?

I've had about three going at once by turn 100 with a fairly poor economy with the Aztecs so I'm fairly sure you could get something like 10 with an outstandingly epic economy.

It would have to rely on coastal cities with early lighthouses and a Great Colossus I imagine.

 

[lissenber]

A small update.

Nebuchadnezzar is now the so called "runaway AI". He already has infantry and cannons while i am still building my very first swordsmen.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

War it is then, Mr Nebu.

Edit: He also has an abundance of gold. I wonder how long till he reaches 1, 000, 000.

Spoiler :

 

[RedKi-rr]

Why don't you play on normal speed?

 

[Slowpoke]

man, that's a lot of size one cities :O no colloseums?