bed_03 - RaR, Demigod, random civ

The sooner we clear the continent the better. Well we get a nice UU, the other guys also get nice UU's. I vote that we lay down the smack as soon as possible. At the very least we need to trim down the Inca about 3 cities.
 
The great thing about the Kensai is that is has an insane lifespan. It is the strongest attacker until Riflemen/Leathernecks, and the upgrade path allows it to be build until Cavs - now, would you prefer a 7.2.2 unit for 80sp, or Cuirassiers/Dragoons at 6.2.3 for 120/140sp? Surely, the move=3 is usefull, but for attacking cities, the Kensai rules until the IA.

Bottom line: Japan is the one Civ (Russia another one, btw) that doesn't have to bother with only a short window of opportunity for its UU. Much like Ottomans in unmodded.
 
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_2500BC.SAV

2750 BC (0) - Change Kagoshima to a harbor.

IT - Disease strikes Osaka.

2725 BC (1) - Consider changing to Hardy Asian Clan, as it costs less pop and could settle some worthless jungle to the south.

IT - Disease strikes Osaka again.

2700 BC (2) - Now I do switch to Hardy Asian Clan.

2625 BC (5) - Have been moving champions slowly south. Worker forge in Tokyo does nothing for production, start on Kublai transport.

2600 BC (6) - Been building Guardsmen in Kyoto, but starting a Forge. I don't know if we need it quite yet, but it never expires. I also realize harbors don't do anything for us in Chiefdom, so I change two to Kublai transports.

2575 BC (7) - Move a Kublai transport into the sea on its second move, and it won't move anymore. Huh?

2525 BC (9) - Sailing and 15g to Aztecs for Domestication. Camels pop up by Tlatelalco. Now I am not really sure what to do with the settler type unit build. Hardy Clan or regular ol' Clan? It seems like Hardy Clan is the better choice to me, even if it takes longer, because it isn't much longer and the impact on the population is smaller, and no wasted turns. But I thought I'd check.

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2500 BC (10) - Not sure why I went north with the transport. Also not sure any more that harbors wouldn't have any effect, so maybe the next player can change coastal cities back to harbors. Our champions are all headed for the Inca. I am all for stealing their land now instead of waiting for Kensai.
 
Move a Kublai transport into the sea on its second move, and it won't move anymore. Huh?
Sea and Ocean have a movement cost of 2. Many later ships (and Curraghs) are ATAR, but the early vessels can only crawl around. Also, before you wonder: Aside from Curraghs, Long Boats are the first ships that can enter Ocean tiles at all (early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).

Harbors don't help in Chiefdom (except for Seals/Fishes/Shellfish, of course). But then, your harbors won't finish much before you're in Monarchy, I'd guess.
 
(early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).
Thanks for the information. I keep wondering why I couldn't even step in the ocean for a single tile.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Sea and Ocean have a movement cost of 2. Many later ships (and Curraghs) are ATAR, but the early vessels can only crawl around. Also, before you wonder: Aside from Curraghs, Long Boats are the first ships that can enter Ocean tiles at all (early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).

Harbors don't help in Chiefdom (except for Seals/Fishes/Shellfish, of course). But then, your harbors won't finish much before you're in Monarchy, I'd guess.

Oh, I couldn't confirm any sort of movement penalty in the -opedia. And I am glad I was right about the harbors, because I was beginning to worry that I had screwed up by switching from them. Of course, you pointed out that it might nto have been all that bad to work on them now.

Forgot to mention that Bezukhov is up, ThERat on deck.
 
Pre-turn:

A little LK moment here.

Why would we build a 1/2 unit for twenty shields when we could have a 2/1 w/ enslave for 10? Why push for war with Inca, then halfway through decide to build an unneeded production booster (unneeded for immediate war) in our most productive city? One that already had it’s sweet spot set up? Why is Kagoshima built away from the BG’s? Why is our only elite in the city farthest from the intended battlefield? Why build TG’s and then send none to cover the intended invading army of 4 champs?

Just wonderin…

The Champ thing and the harbor question were discussed in prior posts

2500 BC: MM Kyoto to grow in one turn. Set Osaka to WH to make five shields with only one pop if necessary (2 turn champs). Set Tlot to TG so Asian Clan will come out at same time as growth to 3 pop (need to make that Camel work – grows faster at 1 pop), and free up elite. Eventually will move city to hill. Edo to Shrine to get some cultural pressure on Inca (due in six). I’m inclined to call off the war and concentrate on filling in the land we already have. We’ll see if the Incas have other plans.

2475BC:

Incas approach Osaka (we had moved champ from Tokyo to cover). MM for max production, Osaka WH in 1, Tokyo Forge in 3, then grow. (For flexibility, if Inca attack)

IBT – Incas retreat from Osaka, but move a settler pair next to Edo! Ugh, I wish I had a TG near there – hate to waste the Shrine (in 4), but here goes…

2450BC: Ask Inca’s to leave, they say OK, but don’t, so it’s WAH. Our vet champ redlines, but takes out the Settler pair, and promotes! Elite Champ near Satsuma moves to mountain in range of reg Inca champ (can’t let him get to that space), Osaka TG moves south. Switch production in Edo to TG, wasting 6 shields. Transport heads due west from Tokyo.

IBT Inca mill about aimlessly

2425BC: Osaka making 2 turn champs, MM Kyoto for growth, still getting forge next turn. Buy worker + 110 gold from Aztec for Alpha. TG heads west from Edo with two champs toward mountain, three more to follow.

IBT: Inca clown attacks our TG near Satsuma on hill, redline, but we promote! Vet champ attacks Inca archer in Marsh, loses two HP, but promotes! Wow, I’m not used to playing MIL civs! Eagle Warrior moves onto the mountain near Quito, TG and champs fortify on hill.

2400BC: Forge completes in Kyoto, set to max growth (4 turns), making champ in, um, 4, but it will get better! Transport in north sees Aztecs still battling barbs near capital!

IBT: Eagle Warrior attacks TG, flawless promotion.

2375BC: units moving into position, attacking Quito next turn.

IBT: New source of camel near Tokyo.

:eek:

That is HUGE. We were really struggling for pop. Scratch that, its on a desert. Just another hill for now.

2350BC: first vet champ takes one hp off of TG before dying, next one wins and promotes, making a slave and autorazing Quito. Move other units toward Inca cities in south of continent.

IBT: Wow, hard to see roads in the jungle. One Eagle Warrior comes out to take out the Quito conqueror, we win on defense and promote, creating a slave. Then another comes and all is lost. Oh great, barb shows up from the tongue of continent to our far south east.

2325BC: Send champ due east from Kyoto to scout next city location. Writing comes in – we are sucking hind tit on tech – Cultivation in 11. Yuck. Embassy with Aztecs:



After much contemplation, put Kyoto on Granary, by the time the champs he can make get to the Inca, it would be too late. We need more settlers, and Kyoto is the only city that can grow with enough regularity to produce them. It will take MM (three turns of all flood plains, then two of no growth with hills, etc.), but should be able to get some sort of settler factory set up in due course. We just don’t have enough of an advantage against other MIL civs to push war at this point, or we’ll fall too far behind the others in tech. Plenty of open land to settle right now…

IBT: more Inca units approach Quito mountain, we have a TG fortified there.

2300BC: Sacrifice a scout to slow down TG on way to protect southern Inca cities. Granary in 5 in Kyoto at no growth (grow again when it comes in to fill up granary). No idea what to build in Kagoshima or Satsuma. Don’t like either city placement. Could have two coastal hill cities on either side of Satsuma (with port and major port being on a river means little). Kagoshima should be one north. How bout a dotmap, Doc? Barb threatens Edo. Move out champ to let him pillage.

IBT: Barb kills a pop point. Yuck. Hmm, TG doesn't kill scout, but heads to city. Actual AI intelligence, unprecedented!

:mischief:

Incas want peace, will give Chipotle (a not bad city, with crab and two game, but lots of marsh. They also have Cultivation.)

I’ll give it over here to let the next player make the peace decision. If we want peace, now is the time, so we can get the research going. Get the city for peace, then trade Alpha and money for Cultivation. Without Dyna, we suck pretty hard – with it, our flood plain/hill cities will be very productive. Flood plains + hills being slightly preferable to flood plains OR hills.

;)

Tlot and Tokyo are building Asian clans to get back to one pop, where their food bonuses kick in and they grow faster. We need growth wherever we can find it. The Tokyo clan can sneak into the south through the mountain range. Please do not build hardy clans from these cities - we don't have the time to wait. We can trade one pop for 20 shields, why trade 30 shields for one pop? Kyoto will be set up to build hardys if we need them to settle the marsh area.

Feel free to change harbor build, I'd rather move that city (along with Tlot to the river hill and Kago one north) once we get the continent filled, so buildings in these cities could be avoided.
 

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Bezhukov said:
A little LK moment here.

Why would we build a 1/2 unit for twenty shields when we could have a 2/1 w/ enslave for 10? Why push for war with Inca, then halfway through decide to build an unneeded production booster (unneeded for immediate war) in our most productive city? One that already had it’s sweet spot set up? Why is Kagoshima built away from the BG’s? Why is our only elite in the city farthest from the intended battlefield? Why build TG’s and then send none to cover the intended invading army of 4 champs?

Tlot and Tokyo are building Asian clans to get back to one pop, where their food bonuses kick in and they grow faster. We need growth wherever we can find it. The Tokyo clan can sneak into the south through the mountain range. Please do not build hardy clans from these cities - we don't have the time to wait. We can trade one pop for 20 shields, why trade 30 shields for one pop? Kyoto will be set up to build hardys if we need them to settle the marsh area.

Feel free to change harbor build, I'd rather move that city (along with Tlot to the river hill and Kago one north) once we get the continent filled, so buildings in these cities could be avoided.

Can't believe I forgot to switch Kyoto to +3fpt that last turn, meant to do that. The thought behind TG is based on the unmodded version, so quite probably flawed, but I forgot to check. Anyway, in Kyoto, it could build TG in 3 turns and Champs in 2, but I was thinking along the lines of upgrade path. I changed to forge because I didn't really want any more TG, or to build Champs with substantial shield waste. And the set up was never there during my turns.

Unit placement all has to do with the end of the Aztec war. And the TG hanging behind has to do with defending cities, as there were Inca units floating around and who knows in RaR if the Aztecs won't strike back. So I figured that the units we had would do what they could against the Inca, as Kyoto is our only unit producing city at this point, and then we could go back after the Aztecs.

I don't get what you mean by trading shields for pop. Hardy Clans keep the pop higher and allow higher production and commerce, plus we have a lot of jungle and marsh to settle to the south. But I am not familiar enough with RaR to make a definite decision.
 
got it, sicne I am off today, will play this later on
 
Thx for the answers. I think Kyoto got hit by disease or something, but it only needed 4 pop to produce a champ per turn (see previous post). That was the main reason to take on the Inca (we could have built like 8-10 champs quickly and overrun them).

Trading shields for pop is a reference to pop rushing. It's all great in theory to build hardy clans and save pop, be we just don't have the time to wait. Each city gets a free square that doesn't need food. Under RandR chiefdom, it's way better to have two one pop cities (especially with food bonuses) than one three pop. Think about it.

I think we only need to put one city on marsh itself, we can cover the rest of the territory with regular clans on the borders.
 
save

Pre-turn
make peace with Inca as suggested, get and 73g
trade alphabet and 70g for cultivation, we do have sugar and spices in our land. we want dynasticism fast, go for caste system in 13

1. nothing much, discover land mass across, but not a safe crossing

2. transport survives

3. nth much

4. Aztecs try to grab our settler spot, we should attack them again

5. declare and take out settler pair netting 2 slaves

6. move troops to front

7. spices are hooked up and we can reduce tax to 0%

8. 9.

10. troops are approaching Aztec cities. the western transporter has 2 champs on board as well
in the south a transport is ready to bring the settler over to that island but passage is not safe
 
I got it, but will play probably tomorrow.
Since i still don't feel comfortable with RaR any suggestions are quite welcome. :)
 
Since i still don't feel comfortable with RaR any suggestions are quite welcome.
I have to say that I felt a little lost during my turns as well. seems a city without food bonus is really lousy. and travel is also very limited since we can't enter the ocean
 
I would continue to try and stick it to the Aztecs as much as possible. Also try and get some new cities in the field and keep up in Techs if possible. Do anyting we can to get contacts and Dynasticism.
 
Things get much better (and more fun!) once we get Dynasticism. The biggest difference with regular civ is the three fod per pop. So in regular civ, a city with 2 pop almost always grows as fast or fast than a city with one. One RandR under Chiefdom, the opposite is true, especially in a city with a food bonus.

Consider Tokyo. At one pop it gets +2 fpt, 2spt, and 4 cpt (working the Seal). At three pop, it gets 0fpt, 3 spt, and 4cpt. So it's actually better to keep it at 1 as much as you can, building Asian Clans timed to come in with growth to 3. Each city gets a free tile that needs no food, and also helps with unit support. The more cities, the better.

Kyoto should have a granary by now, so you can work all flood plains for a couple turns to get quick growth, then switch to Hills to build a couple Hardy Clans to settle the marshland. If you want, you can let Osaka work the Flood Plains during these turns, then skim off the pop with workers to grow other cities faster. Usually all Osaka needs to work is one hill to get to 5 spt. We'll evertually move Osaka too, so don't put any more buildings there.

Cities that we'll want to move can build champs for warfare, quantity over quality.

Need to get luxes hooked up so that we can build slave markets when Incas reearch Slavery. When Dynasticism comes in, things will get very interesting...
 
>seems a city without food bonus is really lousy.

This is due almost entirely to the Chiefdom penalty, but also because we can't irrigate yet. Remember too that hills produce an extra shield, so even a pop one city on a hill can work a hill to make 4spt, which, with boosters, can easily get to 8. Mining isn't so far in the future either. And even lousy fishing villages can make 6 cpt. 10 of those lousy cities can still make some dough.
 
There is a big difference in RaR early.
In C3C despot basic grassland works fine, and only the bonus tiles suffer.

In RaR chiefdom basic grasslands suffers. This subtle difference is huge, as it pretty much kills an empire until you can revolt.
 
Pre-turn: Honestly. I have no idea what to do :confused:

IBT. Aztecs Jag kills our warrior.

T1. 1980BC.Switched Tlatelolco to OtomonoMakuta. Kyoto champ->Hardy clan. moving troops towards Tlaxcalca
T2, 1960BC. Castle System comes... Not sure for to research next but hear lots of dynastisism so i decided to go for Urbanization

IBT. Killed one Jag and lost one champ.

T3. 1940BC Captured Tlaxcala. Lost one champ.

IBT. Killed a Jag.

T4. 1920BC. Move troops towards Teotihuacan. Workers roading jungle
IBT. Lost boat in threacherous waters.... I am afraid to send another boat with settler to the horse island.

T5. 1900BC. Assign workers to road towards Tlaxcala. troops keep moving north

T6. 1880BC Kyoto build Hardy Clan ->champion.

T7. 1860BC. Satsuma harbor->boat. Moved bunch of worker and troops.

IBT. Killed Jag. lost CHamp.

T8. 1840BC Destroyed unspellable Aztecs city. Decease strikes Kyoto

T9. 1820C Captured Teotihuacan. Deciase continues to plague Kyoto

IBT. Lost champ to Jag

T10. Killed Jag. Moving troops towards Xochicalco.

Not quite sure what to do with Hardy clan and where would be best city location. Please feel free to critisize me for my lousy turns. I feel like i am playing totally different game...

Screenie
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Not quite sure what to do with Hardy clan and where would be best city location. Please feel free to critisize me for my lousy turns. I feel like i am playing totally different game...
It is totally different. That is why I like it. I have to actually think with my moves, not simply play on auto-pilot.
 
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