bed_03 - RaR, Demigod, random civ
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I won't be able to finish it tonight. The giant "kick me!" sign that was our completly undefended northern kingdom (ha, middle and northern - I've never seen anything like it.) has enticed the Iroquois to pay us a visit. If we don't get things straigthened out, we'll lose this game.
Were running 20% lux, costing us 120 gold per turn for each 10%. And most of the northern cities are still not in WLTK day! Building 14 turn labs missing cheaper buildings that do the same thing, not to mention production boosters and granaries, just doesnt make much sense. Huari is building a Bazaar (and apparently has been for 10 turns due in 22, lacking even a forge!).
Tenochitlan is wasting at least 15 shields per turn by not being in WLTK during the GA. I switched production there to the Summer Palace, due in 4, but guess where the Iros landed, without a unit of ours within four turns of moving there!
I'll try to clean things up tomorrow night.
Were running 20% lux, costing us 120 gold per turn for each 10%. And most of the northern cities are still not in WLTK day! Building 14 turn labs missing cheaper buildings that do the same thing, not to mention production boosters and granaries, just doesnt make much sense. Huari is building a Bazaar (and apparently has been for 10 turns due in 22, lacking even a forge!).
Tenochitlan is wasting at least 15 shields per turn by not being in WLTK during the GA. I switched production there to the Summer Palace, due in 4, but guess where the Iros landed, without a unit of ours within four turns of moving there!
I'll try to clean things up tomorrow night.
So.... Iro's showed up, there were no orchestra playing. frankly they got offended and must even have called us axis of evil or something...
I believe you'll take care of it Bezhukov...
Glad i am not the one playing before you though
I believe you'll take care of it Bezhukov...
Glad i am not the one playing before you though
Well, I will go ahead and give myself a kick in the rear. I meant to mention labs, too, in addition to the accidental university build. I realized later that there were a few building that did the same thing cheaper, I guess I didn't change them all. Labs were often auto selected, and after checking that they didn't have libraries and some other build, the name slipping my mind at the moment, I left it there. Then I had to change it back later, but obviously didn't get them all.
Most of my turns were spent in WLTKD, if it is any help. In turn eight or nine, it went away everywhere and lux had to be temporarily raised to keep Satsuma and a couple other cities happy. I assume that that was due to WW. I figured that once the Inca were gone, it wouldn' tbe a problem, and I didn't want to raise lux further or go to the trouble of checking all cities for a couple of turns production.
I agree I should have built more military, but one army was heading north since the Inca had been dealt with. I figured that that would be enough to deal with any initial landing. Are the AI in RaR much better at naval landings?
And though production boosters mean faster builds later, I wanted us to be able to keep up research once our GA ends. Again, they should have been (what, School, right?) something other than labs.
Most of my turns were spent in WLTKD, if it is any help. In turn eight or nine, it went away everywhere and lux had to be temporarily raised to keep Satsuma and a couple other cities happy. I assume that that was due to WW. I figured that once the Inca were gone, it wouldn' tbe a problem, and I didn't want to raise lux further or go to the trouble of checking all cities for a couple of turns production.
I agree I should have built more military, but one army was heading north since the Inca had been dealt with. I figured that that would be enough to deal with any initial landing. Are the AI in RaR much better at naval landings?
And though production boosters mean faster builds later, I wanted us to be able to keep up research once our GA ends. Again, they should have been (what, School, right?) something other than labs.
No sweat - all that makes sense. I think I was just worked up over the sneak. I did notice Satsuma was about to riot at 10% (reducing lux had remarkably little effect on the northern cities), so it had to get an entertainer and starve for a couple turns. For 120 gold per turn, figured it was worth it.
Bedtime now, however. This will be a good opportunity to turn the world against the Iro, just a little earlier than I would have liked (and we're lacking a tech to buy in the Sioux with, so it could get expensive). I do try to make it a habit not to leave my entire empire undefended. I lack the jedi skill of someone like Sirian who can make such a ploy work.
Bedtime now, however. This will be a good opportunity to turn the world against the Iro, just a little earlier than I would have liked (and we're lacking a tech to buy in the Sioux with, so it could get expensive). I do try to make it a habit not to leave my entire empire undefended. I lack the jedi skill of someone like Sirian who can make such a ploy work.
Sci builds, in order of cost:
Academy
Library
Philo School (gives culture, but goes away if not in Demo)
School of Scribes
Monastery (more than twice the cost of SofS)
Lab
Uni
School
Public School
Research Lab
Computer Network
That's off the top of my head - I may be missing something. The big increase in cost is between School of Scribes and Monastery. You can get away with building the former without all the produciton boosters, but not the later.
My most serious concern was the number of cities trying to grow (working less shield, more food tiles) without a granary. Cities should have a granary (relatively cheap) before going into growth mode. Corrupt cities in the south were working high shield tiles before getting to 5 pop (kicks in WLTK) and building stuff like ports, etc...
Academy
Library
Philo School (gives culture, but goes away if not in Demo)
School of Scribes
Monastery (more than twice the cost of SofS)
Lab
Uni
School
Public School
Research Lab
Computer Network
That's off the top of my head - I may be missing something. The big increase in cost is between School of Scribes and Monastery. You can get away with building the former without all the produciton boosters, but not the later.
My most serious concern was the number of cities trying to grow (working less shield, more food tiles) without a granary. Cities should have a granary (relatively cheap) before going into growth mode. Corrupt cities in the south were working high shield tiles before getting to 5 pop (kicks in WLTK) and building stuff like ports, etc...
Well, I lack Sirian's skill but I try to get by on as few units as possible. I have played games as seafaring civs where up until 1000BC-1250BC my only units were workers, curraghs, and settlers, and as non seafaring where I only had a few scouting warriors, if that. I would say that in about half of my soloish games (I rarely finish games anymore when playing solo) I never build a single regular ground unit. I like to live dangerously.
Oh, School of Scribes is what I was looking for. 120s or so, right? The port in Machu Picchu probably could have waited (well, definitely could have) but it seemed like a decent build. I was waiting on working higher food tiles until the irrigation finished. I can't remember my builds elsewhere in the south, but I didn't really but as much thought into them.
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
I like labs and built quite a few of them because they cost no upkeep. The upkeep was missing from your analysis. We can build Kensai, which should rip apart the Iro for a long time. I would not be concerned. We don't want the game to be too easy.
We're blowing 120 gold per turn on 20% lux, and you're worried about 1gpt upkeep? Spending 15 turns building a lab in a city that lacks a granary, a wind mill, and a town clock, is, well, I'm unable to put it kindly. If you build the latter three first, you can get all four in only a few more turns as the lab itself.
My general strategy is not to build anything that takes over 5 turns until all the applicable production boosters are in place, and I'd prefer not to build anything over 3.
As for taking on the Iros with Kensai - how many do you figure we'd need to survive their counters?
My general strategy is not to build anything that takes over 5 turns until all the applicable production boosters are in place, and I'd prefer not to build anything over 3.
As for taking on the Iros with Kensai - how many do you figure we'd need to survive their counters?
romeothemonk
Order of the Engineer
I would cover with an army of Kensai, then use our 2 movement point advantage to attack. I have yet to have a civ game above regent not have setbacks, so I expect some minor setbacks every now and again. Losing a 2nd ring city or 2 is not really a big deal in my mind, especially in RaR.
I might suggest that we go to Absolutism now, as I think we will be at war for quite some time now. We want to flush the iro to fundamentalism.
I might suggest that we go to Absolutism now, as I think we will be at war for quite some time now. We want to flush the iro to fundamentalism.
We just have completely different play styles. I crush my opponents economically, then win with superior units. Apparently you spit out masses of units and overwhelm them. We do already have half of the "superior units" pice with Kensai (although the Iros will soon have, if they do not already, the 6/2/3 Cuirrasier, which I would argue are better than Kensai themselves). The problem is - all we have to cover the Kensai are 4 defense pikes. To gain a foothold on that continent, we'd need a lot of those.
Since the Iros won't be getting a better defensive units themselves for quite a while, why not take this opportunity to get our productive capacity, and more importantly, our economy established? We would have to sacrifice a lot of this to field an adequate army at this point.
As for Tenoch being a second-ring city - look at the terrain. With a summer palace, it would be our second most productive city. Or would have been, but for our carelessness.
Our choices:
1. Slow down Iro tech and slow down ourselves and fight them with our less productive empire. This involves going to Abs Mon and staying in AW mode. We will lack the cash to develop either the former Inca lands or the former Aztec. We will delay getting the Supreme Court, the huge boost of fisheries, new food resources, rails, and clearing marsh/jungle all things the human does better than the AI.
2. Build our productive capacity and our economy while shutting out the Iro. This involves getting a pile on the Iro, tying up all the luxes/resources/gpt from Sioux and Celt that was going to them, staying in Demo or going to Fed. Repub., getting our whole empire productive, then invading the Iro with MG three-man armies (8 defense) on which they can impale their cavs. Blitz from there. We can get tech to a three turn pace fairly soon if we get our econ moving.
Short-term, we can fight for 20 turns without WW in Demo, then make peace when alliance runs out.
Since the Iros won't be getting a better defensive units themselves for quite a while, why not take this opportunity to get our productive capacity, and more importantly, our economy established? We would have to sacrifice a lot of this to field an adequate army at this point.
As for Tenoch being a second-ring city - look at the terrain. With a summer palace, it would be our second most productive city. Or would have been, but for our carelessness.
Our choices:
1. Slow down Iro tech and slow down ourselves and fight them with our less productive empire. This involves going to Abs Mon and staying in AW mode. We will lack the cash to develop either the former Inca lands or the former Aztec. We will delay getting the Supreme Court, the huge boost of fisheries, new food resources, rails, and clearing marsh/jungle all things the human does better than the AI.
2. Build our productive capacity and our economy while shutting out the Iro. This involves getting a pile on the Iro, tying up all the luxes/resources/gpt from Sioux and Celt that was going to them, staying in Demo or going to Fed. Repub., getting our whole empire productive, then invading the Iro with MG three-man armies (8 defense) on which they can impale their cavs. Blitz from there. We can get tech to a three turn pace fairly soon if we get our econ moving.
Short-term, we can fight for 20 turns without WW in Demo, then make peace when alliance runs out.
Note: This first part of this was (obviously) written before the sneak. It was also written before I noticed that all buildings had mysteriously become more expensive. Doc, any idea how this happened? All the build costs - for buildings, not units - were what you would get in an extended turn game. I.e. guild hall cost 300 instead of 200. Do these scale with world size? Funny, I don't remember that being the case in the earlier turns of this game. I take back a lot of my criticism, because it's really tough to make the calls when everything costs so much.
Pre-flight: New Osaka apparently decided it likes all our coastal cities being empty, so it can quit making units. Not good Coastal Marines will come calling soon. Switch to CH in one, so it can get off the yucky 24 shield number. Suo is on full growth mode without a granary. Edo is back in its rightful hands restore its rightful name. Newtons might be more useful than another army at this point in Kyoto. Kagoshima lacks a granary. Yokohoma is building a school, lacking the much cheaper school of scribes and a granary. Tenochitlan is wasting a ridiculous number of shields, as it has unhappy people during our GA. Change build to Summer Palace in 4. Satsuma will be fine once it gets a Prison.
Adjust lux to 10%, netting us another 120 gpt, put it towards research, as were lagging. Satsuma needs a clown for three turns. East India will help us immensely. We really need Supreme Court.
And the incense is still unhooked. Oh well, lets see what can be done.
Ship Brennus some luxes and Absolutism for some gpt, mostly to help him out. Adjust several builds (dont have time to record all builds, will only record important ones.
IBT: Ah, there are the Iros, as if on cue.
1110BC: Build some one-turn Shaolin Monks to go after Iro fast units. Purchase Leadership from Iros for 380 gpt, then ask him to leave. Some consider such machinations shady. I call them desperate. I could have structured the deal in a way that would have trashed Hiawathas rep, but didnt go that far. I did make use of Leadership to get mucho dinero from the Sioux. And also an alliance vs. the hated Iroquois, throwing in 4 luxes to help the Sioux economy. We get Brennus signed up as well, freeing up some tropical fruit he was sending Hiawatha, we give him gold (the resource) for that.
Autoraze Inca island capital, hes got another to the south, head that way. War happiness will not last, as Tenoch will fall. Starve some nearby cities for one turn Kensai.
IBT: Iros take Tenoch and raze the new city to its north.
1120AD: Surprisingly, no WW hits. Regular Shoni no Kagesune rushed from tundraland redlines fighting Iro knight that razed our city, its 3 hitpoints to 1, badguys, and we take em down.
I guess Shoni no Kagesune means guy who takes no sneak attack ****. 
Emperor Tokugawa dubs our brave hero Reclaimer of the Homeland. Kensai forces muster in the south for a massive counterstrike to reclaim Tenochitlan.
Our analysts tell us our golden age is over, or they will next turn after all our builds are screwed up.
Give Satsuma three clowns just in case.
IBT: Celts and Sioux demand to donate all the extra gold their happy people are making to our treasury. We now pull in 238 gpt at max sci. This is post-GA. Happy allies make for rich civs.
1130BC: Plodding to the front.
IBT: Iros take advantage of the 3-move Cuirassier to raze Malinalco.
Thats ok, didnt like it sitting next to that volcano anyway. Somehow Incas have some of the little 5/2 dudes in their island hideaway, they take out our Kensai who came to visit.
1140AD: WW hits in step with East India and 20%lux, no riots. First Kensai army to reach the scene slices and dices Malinalco defilers. We have mercy on the poor island-dwelling Atalpulha. Keeping him around will help keep the Iros from running away with the tech. Our war whiners get all happy.
IBT: Not much. Iros cower in Tenochitlan. Why is everything more expensive to build in this game (large map?)
1150AD: Battle for Tenochitlan. Kensai armies wreak vengeance unscathed. Hiawatha managed to get the pop down to one in record time, but left us some improvements, I'll rush a granary next turn and have her back up in no time. Juris-Flintlock (in 6 will try to improve that situation), Sioux already have Mercantilism, so will try to trade.
1160AD: Fukushima is making one turn pikes (exactly 50spt).
1180AD: Sado founded near ruins of Malinalco, but not near Volcano.
2000AD: Newtons comes in, set to Mil Academy as pre-build for Smiths. We trade Flintlock and some of that gpt Sioux are giving us back for Mercantilism. Econ in 5, things are improving slowly. Get 690 back from Brennus for Flinlock to help him fight the evil Iroquois. Summer Palace due in 4 in Larry. When we get rails, that will be a very productive city, we just need the damn palace to lower OCN.
Our corrupt cities are plugging away. When we get Supreme Court, you'll be amazed what they can do. We need to send workers up to chop the forests around Bob and Sapporo so they can work the surrounding mountains. They've got enough production boostage to be fairly productive. There is a settler for the horse island ready to hop on the boat in the SE. Need to get 3 banks so we can build central bank and earn interest. Can put it in either Satsuma or Kyoto (Kyoto has the tourism, but is building Smith's).
I think Cuzco is the crappiest capital site I've ever seen. How did it ever grow past three pop?
bed3_1200AD.SAV
Pre-flight: New Osaka apparently decided it likes all our coastal cities being empty, so it can quit making units. Not good Coastal Marines will come calling soon. Switch to CH in one, so it can get off the yucky 24 shield number. Suo is on full growth mode without a granary. Edo is back in its rightful hands restore its rightful name. Newtons might be more useful than another army at this point in Kyoto. Kagoshima lacks a granary. Yokohoma is building a school, lacking the much cheaper school of scribes and a granary. Tenochitlan is wasting a ridiculous number of shields, as it has unhappy people during our GA. Change build to Summer Palace in 4. Satsuma will be fine once it gets a Prison.
Adjust lux to 10%, netting us another 120 gpt, put it towards research, as were lagging. Satsuma needs a clown for three turns. East India will help us immensely. We really need Supreme Court.
And the incense is still unhooked. Oh well, lets see what can be done.
Ship Brennus some luxes and Absolutism for some gpt, mostly to help him out. Adjust several builds (dont have time to record all builds, will only record important ones.
IBT: Ah, there are the Iros, as if on cue.
1110BC: Build some one-turn Shaolin Monks to go after Iro fast units. Purchase Leadership from Iros for 380 gpt, then ask him to leave. Some consider such machinations shady. I call them desperate. I could have structured the deal in a way that would have trashed Hiawathas rep, but didnt go that far. I did make use of Leadership to get mucho dinero from the Sioux. And also an alliance vs. the hated Iroquois, throwing in 4 luxes to help the Sioux economy. We get Brennus signed up as well, freeing up some tropical fruit he was sending Hiawatha, we give him gold (the resource) for that.
Autoraze Inca island capital, hes got another to the south, head that way. War happiness will not last, as Tenoch will fall. Starve some nearby cities for one turn Kensai.
IBT: Iros take Tenoch and raze the new city to its north.
1120AD: Surprisingly, no WW hits. Regular Shoni no Kagesune rushed from tundraland redlines fighting Iro knight that razed our city, its 3 hitpoints to 1, badguys, and we take em down.
I guess Shoni no Kagesune means guy who takes no sneak attack ****. Emperor Tokugawa dubs our brave hero Reclaimer of the Homeland. Kensai forces muster in the south for a massive counterstrike to reclaim Tenochitlan.Our analysts tell us our golden age is over, or they will next turn after all our builds are screwed up.
Give Satsuma three clowns just in case.IBT: Celts and Sioux demand to donate all the extra gold their happy people are making to our treasury. We now pull in 238 gpt at max sci. This is post-GA. Happy allies make for rich civs.
1130BC: Plodding to the front.
IBT: Iros take advantage of the 3-move Cuirassier to raze Malinalco.
Thats ok, didnt like it sitting next to that volcano anyway. Somehow Incas have some of the little 5/2 dudes in their island hideaway, they take out our Kensai who came to visit. 1140AD: WW hits in step with East India and 20%lux, no riots. First Kensai army to reach the scene slices and dices Malinalco defilers. We have mercy on the poor island-dwelling Atalpulha. Keeping him around will help keep the Iros from running away with the tech. Our war whiners get all happy.
IBT: Not much. Iros cower in Tenochitlan. Why is everything more expensive to build in this game (large map?)
1150AD: Battle for Tenochitlan. Kensai armies wreak vengeance unscathed. Hiawatha managed to get the pop down to one in record time, but left us some improvements, I'll rush a granary next turn and have her back up in no time. Juris-Flintlock (in 6 will try to improve that situation), Sioux already have Mercantilism, so will try to trade.
1160AD: Fukushima is making one turn pikes (exactly 50spt).
1180AD: Sado founded near ruins of Malinalco, but not near Volcano.
2000AD: Newtons comes in, set to Mil Academy as pre-build for Smiths. We trade Flintlock and some of that gpt Sioux are giving us back for Mercantilism. Econ in 5, things are improving slowly. Get 690 back from Brennus for Flinlock to help him fight the evil Iroquois. Summer Palace due in 4 in Larry. When we get rails, that will be a very productive city, we just need the damn palace to lower OCN.
Our corrupt cities are plugging away. When we get Supreme Court, you'll be amazed what they can do. We need to send workers up to chop the forests around Bob and Sapporo so they can work the surrounding mountains. They've got enough production boostage to be fairly productive. There is a settler for the horse island ready to hop on the boat in the SE. Need to get 3 banks so we can build central bank and earn interest. Can put it in either Satsuma or Kyoto (Kyoto has the tourism, but is building Smith's).
I think Cuzco is the crappiest capital site I've ever seen. How did it ever grow past three pop?
bed3_1200AD.SAV
I'm irrigating some of the hills around Fukushima so he can work the mountains. Also need to irrigate the hill near Bizen. When rails come in, we can remine if necessary (hill mines get +2 shield, but irrigation only gets +1 food, so usually better to mine).
Prisons enhance production and lower corruption, but are pricey. Usually best to wait for factories to build them (high shield cities like Satsuma and Kyoto could probably use them before), but they really juice factory production once they're built.
Nice job in a difficult situation. I don't know if this would effect building costs, but we are playing the extended version with something like 940 turns or in that range. I selected it accidentally when we started the game, and didn't realize my mistake until the first turnset had already been played. Could that possibly influence anything?
I think the agricultural bonus allowed the Incan capital to get to 3. But it certainly was a dreadful start for them. We have really been quite lucky.
I think the agricultural bonus allowed the Incan capital to get to 3. But it certainly was a dreadful start for them. We have really been quite lucky.
Now he tells me.
After I thought I'd lost my mind. Odd that I didn't notice before, and that the victory screen says 540 turns instead of 900 whatever. Something strange is going on. We've been lucky in some ways, and unlucky in others. Note how many cows we have. How many wheat as well. That makes things a little tougher.
Note also on the vistory screen the culture situation. That's with us having Pyramids! Drastic measures may be called for...
After I thought I'd lost my mind. Odd that I didn't notice before, and that the victory screen says 540 turns instead of 900 whatever. Something strange is going on. We've been lucky in some ways, and unlucky in others. Note how many cows we have. How many wheat as well. That makes things a little tougher.
Note also on the vistory screen the culture situation. That's with us having Pyramids! Drastic measures may be called for...
Oh, I figured you'd notice because of the January thing. I only realized that something was wrong when I joined another RaR game and the years were counted differently. So I checked, and saw that the extended version had been selected. I didn't realize it would affect the game in any way, or I would have mentioned it earlier. 
ThERat
Deity
guess that brings me up, what are our goals for the near future? building turns only or trying to take on the big foe? will armies be useful to pillage them? or will WW bog us down too soon?
ThERat
Deity
bezhukov, I can't download the save, something is wrong with the link provided
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