Bede01:Funny thing happened...

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
Oh yes...guidance - 1. settle the south coast. 2. get a curragh across the eastern strait.

Hmmm... is there some reason you've got Monty Python on your mind today Bugsy?

Okay, minor point: we can't build a curraugh in Caeserea, because we now have Map Making... and a Galley will take 30 turns...

I'm going to post my Pre-Flight check and give you all some time to look at it, because I'm looking at some MM moves that sacrifice growth but get some things sooner. I'd appreciate your feedback on this.

**********

Pre-flight check: Got my new smileys!

F-keys - what? No Iron?!?!? Oh wait - we've got 2 in our borders, and one on that hill I want to settle SE of Ravenna...

We're #3 in Population and GNP, #2 in Mfg. Goods and Land Area. We are now #4 in per capita income... not bad.

America is in Republic. Abe will trade Polytheism for 145g+13gpt, or Horseback Riding for 145g+14gpt, or Literature for 145g+18gpt.

I'm tempted on Lit, though it's early to build Libraries. Also tempted on Poly, since we need it to get out of the AA.

Abe has Furs and Incense (0 extra) and 3 extra silks. He also has 1 extra iron. He also has 13 cities listed, and I don't see Washington on that list.. HBR can wait when we have SoZ...

City check...

um... why a Granary in Damascus? It can't grow past size 6... is this a pre-build?

Micromanagement Possibilities, which generally sacrifice growth:

I can mm Bagdad for a courthouse in 40... it'll reduce growth to 0, but it's not producing much commerce or science w/o the court...

Cumae: MM citizen from floodplain to forest for Granary in 7 instead of 9. Growth slows to 8. Growth in 3 w/ citizen on FP... might not be a good MM...

Kufah needs a worker for some mining...

Khurasan: Sacrifice growth altogether for Temple in 20 instead of 40...

Pisae: I can get a granary in 9 instead of 12...

Believe it or not, moving one lousy citizen from an umimproved BG to a roaded/irrigated plains tile in Byzantium gets us Republic one turn sooner...

 

[Bede]

@scoutsout
Peace with Abu runs out soon, like now. He will probably come calling to re-negotiate. If so, okay because we still have some time to research Currency after we get to Republic. Markets are cheap for the Romans as we are commercial, so check that out before committing to any major projects in the size 5 and above towns.

I could chew over the details for days if you want to...
but I'm pretty sure you get the drift.

You wanted feedback....

"Believe it or not, moving one lousy citizen from an umimproved BG to a roaded/irrigated plains tile in Byzantium gets us Republic one turn sooner..."

That be the power of gold in Conquests. That's why the vanilla and PTW guidance regarding self-research and long run research gambits doesn't always apply in C3C. Now you really have to watch the gpt and the science slider to get the best return on your money. (I haven't quantified any of this beyond horseback measurements, but the effect is there).

Picking a nit:
"He(Abe) also has 13 cities listed, and I don't see Washington on that list..."

You won't see the capitol in the deal screen, ever, nor in the embassy/espionage screen until you either open an embassy or wander past it or buy a map that shows it.

"Abe has Furs and Incense (0 extra) and 3 extra silks. He also has 1 extra iron."

With all those extra luxes let's hope he's missing something really important, like saltpeter, or oil, or uranium, or horses even. Conquests has really changed the way resources and luxuries are distributed. Over abundance in one area often means a shortage in another. The luxury thing can be managed if you have a strong enough economy. Strategic resource shortages usually mean war.
(Doh, don't believe I just wrote that sentence. Talk about teaching a grandmother to suck eggs!)

"um... why a Granary in Damascus? It can't grow past size 6... is this a pre-build?"

You know, I have no idea. Where is Damascus anyway? Can you farm workers out of it? If you can get +5fpt and 5spt you can churn workers every two with a granary.

"Khurasan: Sacrifice growth altogether for Temple in 20 instead of 40..."

I'm not sure we even want any buildings in Khurasan. Just let it grow a little and use it to produce laborers for tuning the rest of the land or for adding into better positioned cities. It's handy to have as an obstacle to invaders but unless there's oil offshore I don't think it adds much of value.

"America is in Republic. Abe will trade Polytheism for 145g+13gpt, or Horseback Riding for 145g+14gpt, or Literature for 145g+18gpt.

I'm tempted on Lit, though it's early to build Libraries. Also tempted on Poly, since we need it to get out of the AA."

If you really want Poly you can trade Abu Iron Working straight up, no cash, no credit. Or wait until we take down Basra and take it out of his hide at the peace table. (He's got a settler on a boat somewhere so even if the capitol is gone he's still around to do deals with)

"I'm tempted on Lit, though it's early to build Libraries. "
I would hold hard on Lit until we've built markets and are out of Despotism. They are expensive for us and don't begin to pay back until we have more gpt to put into research

 

[scoutsout]

@ Brother Bede: Well fortunately, I didn't do anything totally contradictory to what you advised...with the exception of the trade for Polytheism... there was gold involved (read carefully )

*****

Pre-flight check, continued...

Turn 0/50 AD

Empire is +26gpt, Republic in 8

City check
Ravenna, change tax collector to Scientist, treasury now +23gpt, Republic in 5(!)
Byzantium, mm cit fr BG to road/irr plains, for some reason g goes to science, and no change in tech...
Syracuse...a granary in a town that can't get past 6 w/o aqueduct(?)
Damascus MM citizen from coast to mined hill for Granary in 27 not 54
Antium mm cit from lake to plains for settler in 1 not 2
Bagdad mm cit to forest for court in 40 not 80
Cumae mm cit to forest for Granary in 7 not 9, growth in 8 not 3, but granary will be full when built.
Kurasan mm cit to hill for temple in 20 not 40
Mecca mm 2 cits to forest, stunts growth but granary in 2 not 3 (also wastes 0 shields) and granary will be full when built (versus growth and granary in 3 at current setting)

Empire now produces +20gpt, Republic in 5

Let's see...it will take 10 turns to get our one galley anywhere near Caesera... Caesera changed to Galley for the moment...

Dial up Abu... he'll trade Polytheism for Iron Working +10g. Tell you what Abu, how about I trade you IW for Poly and you give US 10 gold? Hehehe...that's what I thought. Done.

Press <Enter>

=====
IBT - A barb Warrior shows his face near our AC on the south coast (where the unescorted settler is going) 6 Barb horses attack 2 of our ACs near the spices. It takes all 6, but they kill both of our ACs (and I saw 6 more before hitting enter).
Viroconium Worker>Worker (10)
Antium Settler>Settler (5)
=====
Turn 1/70 AD
Move Galley NW
Whack a barb warrior
A Settler automatically moved to Byzantium? What the...
=====
IBT - Forest chop at Syracuse
Arab settler pair E out of Basra
Arab Galley appears W of
Rome Settler>Spear
Mecca Granary>Settler (5) mm cits back to food tiles, growth in 3
Kufah Harbor>Galley (15)
=====
Turn 2/90 AD
Move some settlers... move a spear into Jerusalem so our warrior can play whack-a-barb
=====
IBT - Arab Settler pair trespasses, 1 barb horse dies attacking AC
Veii Settler>Settler
=====
Turn 3/110 AD
Forest chop in Mecca puts 10 shields into a settler
Wake a Spear/Archer pair in Palmyra to play whack-a-barb
Jiggle Lux to 20% for a turn...check cities...none of the borderline ones will grow next turn...
Whack barb camp south of Jerusalem
=====
IBT - Arabs shuffle, a barb moves near Palmyra
Hispalis Granary>Spear
Palmyra Worker>Worker
=====
Turn 4/130 AD
Archer whacks barb warrior outside Palmyra
Tarentum founded on Iron Hill
Wake a Spear in Rome and send him northward (sort of)
Shuffle some workers around...lux to 30%
=====
IBT - Arabs trespass
We discover Republic, set research queue to Currency (45 turns!)
Rome Spear> Legionnary!!!!
Antium Settler>Settler
The Americans are building Knights Templar
=====
Turn 5/150 AD
I whip a galley in Anjar ...
Dang... NINE Barb horses and 2 ACs... and me with settlers on the way... I fortify the elite and attack with the Vet, kill 1, no loss, wake Elite and attack
=====
IBT - Arabs trespass
Rome builds an AC
Mecca Settler>
Anjar Galley>Harbor
Brundisium Harbor>Rax
Lost a galley that was trying to make it to Yellow border
=====
Turn 6/170 AD
Abe still won't trade Currency...research to 30%, -5gpt, Currency in 16
Whack a barb horse
Change Hispalis to Settler, it's growing fast, and I can use AC to escort Settlers...
Change Rome to spear to escort settler w/ Rome's only spear
Cumae Granary>Spear
Neaopolis Harbor>Galley
=====
Turn 8/190 AD
Archer whacks a barb
Whack a couple of barb horses w/ ACs
Upgrade a warrior to Legionnaire
AC Settler escort whacks a barb camp
Nicomedia Founded>Temple (to get whales)
Landmass NE of Caesera looks like a desert island
=====
IBT - Arabs trespass, barb warrior dies at spearpoint of AC
Rome Spear>Legion
Vironicum Worker>Worker
Veii Settler>Settler
=====
Turn 9/210 AD
Selucia founded>Warrior
=====
IBT Arab Galley moves East out of Basra
Byzantium Granary>Settler
=====
Turn 10/230 AD
Artaxata founded, dispersing a Barb Camp
Played some more whack-a-barb

After action report...

We're now #1 in the world in Land Area.
There's a settler pair ready to found a city on the last decent spot on the southern coast.
In these 10 turns we founded 4 cities and made 4 settlers...

Sorry if I let our military lag a bit...but I really want to grab as much land as we can before the other AI's develop the naval tech to get settlers over here...

Sheesh... you'd think WE were the expansionist civ on this rock, the way we're cranking out settlers...

Oh yeah - here's the save...we'll call this > > Romulus claims some beaches < <

Eye Candy to follow...

 

[scoutsout]

I don't know if my connection is unusually slow tonight, or if somebody broke the rubber band that holds this forum server together... but it took me a while to upload tonight's eye candy... Bede - I gotta get me some new advisors... I fear my Domestic Advisor is in cahoots with Abu...

 

[scoutsout]

We've got 4 settlers atm, and more on the way.

One settler is ready to make a city on the southern coast, another is outside Caesera, ready to take a short boat ride to the desert isle. That island will probably yield saltpeter or oil someday... There's a whale over there, so the queue should probably be set to temple or something cultural before harbor... the other island will need many worker turns to clear the wetlands before it can be settled...

Two settlers are headed north, towards Ravenna. My thoughts on those: Use the AC to skirmish with Barbs (1 barb horse left) settle a town somewhere near the jungle spices, and settle a canal city on the narrow strip of land NE NE of the last barb horseman. After that we will probably be better served to get some galleys over there, and settle along the coasts, using Arataxa and Tarentum as 'jumping off' points until we can get some interior roads built.

I sent our Legionnaire northward, since a 3/3 Legion will probably be handy to have against the barbarians that are no doubt raging in the north. The 3/1 ACs have been taking some hits.

There are some workers doing some road work around Veii that could probably be shuffled northward to hack our new towns out of the jungle...

Abu has 2 galleys out, and a settler pair in our territory. I wish I could have clipped his wings again, but I felt compelled to send 2 ACs to the north after we lost two IBT on my opening round. You can see one of Abu's galleys W-NW of Khurasan, the other is in the fog near Jerusalem.

Edit: A thought on research - I wish I had tinkered with some scientists in Veii and Cumae...both low corruption, high food cities... the next player might want to try this and see if we can get a boost. If one Scientist in Ravenna can shave 3 turns off Republic, we might be able to get a bigger boost in those 3 cities.

A thought on the Golden Age: We could easily trigger a GA against Abu. What would the Senate say to using the GA to build libraries in our core? This would imply holding off the GA until after we've built markets and switched to Repbublic...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Kind of disappointed about the eastern desert island. I've got the game, although it will probably take 24 hours to get it played. Please give any input

 

[Bede]

Quoth scout:
A thought on the Golden Age: We could easily trigger a GA against Abu. What would the Senate say to using the GA to build libraries in our core? This would imply holding off the GA until after we've built markets and switched to Repbublic...

Quoth barbslinger:
I don't lmow how much time is left on peace with Abu but I would get Repub and set for currency. Set up some prebuilds for markets and when you are ready to whack Abu get over there as we are in anarchy. Who knows how long anarchy will be, 3-8 turns, but when it ends, whack Abu for our GA and continue market builds. You have to see what is given to you. Definately continue expansion as currency is researched.

And barbslinger again:
try to time a GA right as we come out of Anarchy. Don't pull the trigger on gov't change until a) we have only 2-3 turns left on peace with Abu and b) we have nearly researched currency or have it. Then pull the trigger and our income rises to 180 at this point. We have more settlers in queue so I would suspect that to be higher. During GA we can build 4-5 markets and that will really help offset our unit cost. Right now the lack of lux is hurting us. We are liable to lose some pop during anarchy which does not help the cash situation.

Bede reasons:
As a commercial civ markets will provide a greater boost to research than libraries at this point. So, research to currency with all deliberate speed, and queue up marketplace prebuilds, about 4 turns out on learning it, pull trigger on revolution, hire scientists where feasible to maintain research pace, during anarchy position legions to hit Abu for the last time, then when it ends hit him upside the head, finish the markets and start libraries.

Boy, the timing on this one is getting to be tricky. Anybody have any ideas on how to simplify it?

Side note:
Map stat check shows these results

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Looks like someone has been smacking the Pasty Elizabeth around a bit. I wouldn't be surprised to get a message like "The Rampaging Americans have destroyed the English"

Bede - excellent summary on how to execute the government change. It should be quite helpful.

 

[scoutsout]

@ Bede: on Libraries - I did not mean to suggest building Libraries before Markets... I was thinking we could build markets in any city capable of getting past size 6... perhaps even using the despot's whip to complete a few... But Libraries in core cities that can use them, using the GA to lower the build time.

I suspect we are going to be forced to engage in self-research earlier than we would prefer, since it will take several suicide galley missions to get to the yellow border...and we need our second galley for settler runs up the other coast, because it's going to take some effort to get Rome's Roads through that jungle...

Agree w/ Barbslinger we need to start GA in a better gov't. That's why the one Legionnaire we have is headed north where the Barbs are....

 

[scoutsout]

Looking at those mapstats... almost 32% of the world is unclaimed, and I think the lands to the north and the unclaimed tiles in our territory reflect the lion's share of those unclaimed lands. Simply by claiming those lands, we would be pushing 50% land area... and we need what, 66% for a domination win?

Hmmm....

 

[Bede]

has anybody built a big house with a lightbulb in it?

@scout,
I just wanted to clarify the thinking on this one, as I was starting to get confused.

(If you want to see what happens when Brother Bede gets confused check out the the final pages of RBC13.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81890&
I almost lost two armies of 'zerks during that one.)

Building libraries is a good use for GA shields.

And is right., though it is probably closer to 30% as there is a lot of coastline to be claimed yet.

Edit: more like 20%,

so there are some Marines in your future scout!

 

[Cuivienen]

What is this "lightbulb" you speak of?

Someone must have built it since my turns -- we met the Americans 30 turns ago, and they had Map Making then.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by Cuivienen
What is this "lightbulb" you speak of?

He's talking about the Great Lighthouse, I believe. Though it would certainly make it easier for us to meet the rest of the civs, it's nothing a few suicide galley missions won't fix. Aren't you the one who managed to get a Curraugh over there in the first place to meet Abe? Nice bit of sailing...

Maybe Bugsy will be kind enough to build us a few galleys, since I whipped a galley and scouted that little mirage just for him.

 

[Cuivienen]

hehe, it was a joke, albeit a lame one.

I just seem to get lucky with suicide Curraghs and Galleys. Maybe the fact that I play the Byzantines almost exclusively outside of SGs has made my game think I'm always playing Seafaring

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-flight – 230 AD – I think Khurasan is a flip risk. I rearrange the citizens so that they aren’t working tiles under Arabia’s influence. Remember we have some timing issues to deal with, so I go back to the thread and copy Bede’s summary. We have currency due in 12 turns. I bump the science slider up to 60% to get the tech in six turns. I think the idea here is to revolt to republic and get currency during the anarchy period and win a battle with a legion the turn we come out of anarchy. The hard part is going to be the research part during anarchy. I will measure how long research is going to take in anarchy by dropping the slider to 0% and setting up our scientists. I’ll do that when we’re with in a few turns of getting the tech. Not sure what I’ll use as market pre-builds, but I’ll think of something.

The peace treaty with Abu is past 20 turns, so we attack anytime we want.

We have one legion, and only one in a build. Change Cumae to a legion. I will upgrade some warriors as we get closer to Anarchy. Upgrade from warrior to legion will cost 60G apiece.

Change Tarentum, Nicomedia and Artaxata to a barracks.

Quoth Bede:
”Boy, the timing on this one is getting to be tricky. Anybody have any ideas on how to simplify it?”

A simple answer…No

The other continent has some powerhouse civs. The Iroquois have the Colossus, the Great Wall and the Pyramids. The American are building THREE wonders right now. The Zulu own the Oracle and the Hanging Gardens.

So after an hour of planning we are ready to hit enter.

IBT – Mecca: Barracks=>Temple(market pre-build)
Antium: Settler=> Settler
Pompeii: Harbor=> Temple (MPB)
Pisae: Granary=> Temple (MPB)

1. 250 AD – Found Aurelianorum. Start worker.

IBT: Hispalis: Settler=> settler

2. 260 AD -

IBT – Rome: Legion=> Legion
3. 270 AD – Our minimum science run is now 22 turns. I think this will work out.

IBT – Veii: Settler=> Temple(MPB)
Iroquois build Sun Tzu.
Zulu build Library.
Egypt builds Lighthouse.
Americans are now building Leo’s Workshop & the Sistine Chapel
We are far behind guys and gals.

4. 280 AD – Science min is now 14 turns.

IBT – Viroconium: Worker=>barracks
Cumae: Legion=> Legion
Palmyra: worker=> barracks

5. 290 AD – Min science is now down to seven turn. I revolt. We get eight turns of anarchy. I rearrange our people and hire some scientists. Currency will be discovered in three turns. Well that isn’t the greatest of timing attempts.

To be continued…..

 

[Bede]

So fire a couple of beakerheads..nicely done, considering you can't predict the anarchy period.

Can you queue some workgangs for more than three but less than seven turn forest chops at the marketplaces?

 

[barbslinger]

I guess it could be worse. Abu may have kicked our butts and we could be sitting on 4 desert and jungle towns. Looks like when we come out it will be markets and libraries with settlers too. A careful balance.

 

[Bede]

Originally posted by barbslinger
I guess it could be worse. Abu may have kicked our butts and we could be sitting on 4 desert and jungle towns. Looks like when we come out it will be markets and libraries with settlers too. A careful balance.

You have summed up in very few words the reason for the unpopularity of the Romans as a player choice.

A careful balance

As I peruse though the logs and discussion here, and even after making allowances for the obssessive/analytical characters playing (slinger and Cuivienen excepted as I haven't played with you guys enough to get a handle on your characters), it becomes more and more apparent that the two civ traits do not complement each other, rather they work against each other. Advancing the civilization requires just the kind of analysis and balancing as you see in the posts. If you err too much to one side of the balance or the other, the countervailing trait is not powerful enough, in and of itself, to overcome that error.

Regardless of the outcome one of my primary goals in starting this game has been achieved. Now, it will be interesting to test this hypothesis in the other two Roman games, though the conditions in CVN1 may just be too different to apply.

Now, enough of this BS, on to the game!

Go Bugs, make us rich and proud.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I don't know whether I want to fire some beakerheads or not while in anarchy. We make some decent science progress with those guys. I think I hired six beakerheads in cities that were going to riot. Those eighteen beakers are the same as 50% of our budget in despotism. I guess that doesn't say much about either our economy or despotism, I'm not sure which.

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
I don't know whether I want to fire some beakerheads or not while in anarchy. ......... I guess that doesn't say much about either our economy or despotism, I'm not sure which.

- Keep rolling. What is the other choice. It sounds like those guys can get us a jump on the next tech.

- It sure says something about beakers in the early going! Too bad we can't irrigate grass during depo. You can fund your entire scientific program with just them.