Bede04C-The Griddle (C3C1.22Emperor)

This was probably the least I have had to do in any set of SG turns. With all the per turn deals there was no chance of any fighting, so I concentrated on worker moves and infrastructure. I also pumped out a few more workers, but we still need more.

I rushed some culture in our new border towns and MM'd them for growth. We need as many size 7+ cities as possible for the extra unit support.

The Incans and the Celts discovered Astronomy in 580 and have been building Copernicus' since then. They both also have Banking and Chemistry, whilst the Iroquois have just Astronomy. We still have our monopoly on Music Theory.

The Iroquois settler pair in our territory is heading N. It was in a race with the Celts and Incans to settle in the space to the W. The Incans won that race and settled Atico there.

We have 1201g in the treasury, +206gpt, Astronomy in 8. Paying 94gpt in unit support.

We can now cancel our deal with the Incans and attack them (lux rate will need to be increased). There is only 1 town we need to take and I think this image shows why:
 
we can build our UU soon! :lol:

bach will certainly help, but where came all these cities from? weren't we just an OCC?
however, i still believe we should build cop if it would brake the cascade. admittedly, it doesn't seem likely now.
 
el_filet said:
however, i still believe we should build cop if it would brake the cascade. admittedly, it doesn't seem likely now.
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I have been giving this some thought. We still have a monopoly on Music Theory, so Copernicus' is the only wonder the AI can build. Amsterdam currently has 325 shields towards Bach's. This means we could build Copernicus' in 3 turns time provided we can obtain Astronomy.

We cannot make a trade as this would give the AI Music Theory and hence a cascade to Bach's. At 50% science we can get Astronomy in 2 turns with +24gpt, then switch Bach's to Cop's to complete in 3 turns. Amsterdam would then start over on Bach's again.

We can also get Astronomy in 1 turn at 100% science but this seems unnecessary.

I think we should do this as we would then have a good shot at getting both wonders. We could also use the second Bach's build to switch to Newton's or Shakespeare's if we wanted to.
 
sounds like a good plan imo. we should take this opportunity now, altough there isn't a real cascade. this makes sure there wont be one for a little while.

bach would really help, but i want to point out that shakespeare is the most important one. some wars to delay AI research would be nice...
 
@el_filet, OBC, not OCC :)

I think the plan laid out above is sound. Either Bach's or Shake's along with Cop's will push us along nicely.

War with Inca would certainly help if we can get iron and it slows them down a little.

Rota check:
M60 - up
el_filet - on deck
Bede
Zakharov

scout - out of rotation 'til heard from.
 
The save at 750AD

Preturn: Last time I had it, there were 7 opponents, now just 5. You guys are too good to me! ;) OK, Sci to 50%, Astro in 2.

IBT- Our fur deal expires with Inca. Since that was clearly an aggressive act, we will respond accordingly. A couple cities riot. :mad: Chartres musket>granary. Amiens worker>temple.

Turn 1 (660AD) Rome walls>rax. Worker duties. Need to connect the road to Andahuyalas before we go anywhere.

IBT- Hiawatha wants to renew the peace treaty. Sure, we have bigger fish to fry. Astro in, AI knows banking, but I’ll select it as the next advance for the moment. Neapolis worker>court. Marseilles court>temple. Syracuse court>temple.

Turn 2 (670AD) Amsterdam Bach>Copernicus in 1. Monopoly still holds.

IBT- Incas want to talk. Offer Chemistry for MT and 200g. Umm, no. Copernicus in, Bach in 24. Paris temple>cathedral. Besancon granary > temple. Gotta get religion.

Turn 3 (680AD) worker actions.

IBT- Brennus doesn’t want to renew the incense deal. Whatever. Pisea harbor>duct. Dijon university>horse. Caesaraugusta worker>rax.

Turn 4 (690AD) Crank sci up a tad to deliver banking in 2. Rome needs a taxman. More worker stuff.

IBT- Tours > temple rax. A bit of reverse WW is about to kick in as Hannibal is feeling his oats. A galley drops a knight off by Amiens, and two reg knights are approaching overland.

Turn 5 (700AD) Call up our local friendly Carthaginian CEO. Hey, you! Can’t you read the no trespassing sign? Get your carcass off my property! He says ok, but why don’t I believe him? Hit enter fully expecting to get hit.

IBT- Foreign advisor- Well, you know the rest. ;) Lose an AC I had on patrol, he loses a reg knight, more on the way. Banking in, Democracy in 6. Rouen uni>granary. Amsterdam goes wild with joy.

Turn 6 (710AD) Since we can hold Amiens all day long without the AC Army there, time for some serious pillaging to commence. Hannibal, you’re going to regret this. :) Capture a worker, and execute him on the spot. Pillage 2 tiles at Calaris. Amiens trebs red a knight, vet AC brought over by galley, finishes it. Renegotiate peace with Incas for iron, he says no, we say no peace. Hurry rax in Rome for 108g. Want a forward repair base. Now the tricky part, if Inca allies the Celts against us, we stand to lose some territory, even though we have the AC armies. So I give up the monopoly of MT to Brennus for an alliance with the Incas and 45gpt. That will hurt his science for a while at the very least, and we have a 3-turn lead on Bachs. Or we can still make it to Shakes, now that sci @ 60% is now cash positive. Brennus mentions something about highway robbery and goes on his way. Carthage and Greece are about even on the power chart, so time for more mayhem, ally Greece against Carthage for Astronomy. :D

IBT- Lyons uni>Pentagon. Chartres granary>bank. Dijon horse>musket. Celts start on Bachs in Calumodunum. The Carthaginian knights bail out of the attack on Amiens, headed who knows where. :lol: Lose an AC at Atico, afraid the Celts will beat us to that one.

Turn 7 (720AD) 2 reg pike and 2 reg MIs are taken out at Andahuyalas by 2 AC armies, but another reg MI is there. Fortunately, the Celts aren’t nearby. Another Carthaginian worker pays the ultimate price.

IBT- Rheims and Marseilles riot due to overcrowding. :( Fine, more taxes. Atico falls to Celts. Inca MI kills Celt LB.

Turn 8 (730AD) 2 more Carthaginian workers try to make it back to Russicade. Well, they almost made it. AC army builds a new cemetery for them. :p Andahuyalas defends with a reg pike, MI, and LB. All fall to our army, and we have the town along with 7g. When the culture border drops, the iron goes into open terrain. Cover it with the other AC army and an Incan worker.

IBT- Celts knock off a Incan MI.

Turn 9 (740AD) Build our iron colony. Worker actions and Carthaginian pillaging.

IBT- Incas start Bachs. Incas starting Bachs in Cuzco. You’re at war with two major powers, and you’re wonder-building. Brilliant! :crazyeye: Hannibal sends a galley our way, possibly to land by Chartres.

Turn 10 (750AD) Scramble our galley fleet to our coast, so now he needs more than one turn to land. More pillaging in Carthage, bringing up reg troops to cover Andahuyalas, although flip risk is minimal. AC army still covering there. Crank down sci to 40 that brings in Democracy in 2, and done. Next up can bring it in next turn if desired with sci @ 80%

Post turn: Once the Greeks came in, Hannibal had his hands full. Never sent anything towards Amiens. Next up may want to add some native workers to Anda and rush a temple so Brennus doesn’t plop down a town nearby and deprive us of the iron colony.
 
Looking good. :)

We will have to sign peace as soon as the alliances expire otherwise WW will kick in.

We can trade with Greece: Chemistry for Music Theory + 647g. I think we should do this before they get Music Theory from someone else. It will cost 1088g to buy Chemistry without MT thrown in.

Andahuaylas is using entertainers to starve it down to size 1. These should be changed to taxmen. Also, the musket build should be changed to a temple which should then be rushed.
 
will get it tonight

see no reason to hurry science (exept tech trading), unless we're going to give up bach and go for shakes. i would delay science and finish bach before finishing research on FA, democracy could be useful (i like the faster workers), but with all this wars going on, i'm not sure if we should change gov.

where are we heading? our goal is clearly 20k, so i see no need for further expansion, unless we want to hurt our enemies. the incas are to far off (as far as i remember), no point in starting an invasion. carthago is big, taking/razing some cities would be nice, but we probably lack the power (and transport capacity for armies) to do real damage (besides pillaging, which was a good move :D). my only concern military wise is the broad front to the celts. but with MA going, i won't be able to do something about it.

my plan:
get demo
hold the line on our continent
damage carthago as much as possibel without taking risks
build infra, improve land
revolt depending on tech pace/ongoing wars (will try to keep the major powers in wars)

big question:
should i forget bach, revolt and go for shakes?
 
I would rather remain a republic. The drawbacks of switching to democracy far outweigh the benefits. Since patch 1.22 I only ever use republic and communism.

If you think there are not enough workers then build more.
 
until all land is railed, you can never have too many workers :)
unit support may be an advantage too, reduced corruption can also give some additional gpt, although it's usually not that much. may change with banks online.

the drawback on demo is clearly the WW problem. since we go for 20k, there won't be much need to declare war. with salt online, we can defend ourself pretty good, any war declaration would give us war happyness, losses should be minimal until peace. however, republic works ok, but if there's a game where demo could be of use, it's this one. i'm more concerned about the production loss (wonder build) in anarchy then about WW.
 
el_filet said:
i'm more concerned about the production loss (wonder build) in anarchy then about WW.
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That is the biggest drawback with revolting to get a democracy. There is nothing democracy gives that can make up the 6-8 turns of lost production during the anarchy period.
 
I would not revolt to demo right now, but rather press ahead to finish Shakes. Bachs would be nice, but we can still get to 20k without it. War with the Celts is probably going to happen sooner or later, but see no need to initiate it.
 
Re Democracy, there should come a time when the next build is a ways off and the productivity in Amsterdam will be pretty high (after Steam and Industrialization) when we could consider a six turn anarchy period. The commercial benefit of Democracy just can;t be ignored in a culture based game, but it is still a ways off.
 
Bede said:
The commercial benefit of Democracy just can;t be ignored in a culture based game
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What commercial benefit? Please explain to me how Democracy is an upgrade over Republic in any game. In my opinion, Democracy is not a useful government in C3C.

- WW is greatly increased in Democracy.
- Republic and Democracy have the same commerce bonus.
- Unit upkeep is more costly under Democracy if the majority of cities are size 7+.
- Higher worker speed can be negated by efficient management of stacks (plus build extra workers).
- The corruption decrease in Democracy is irrelevant for a 20K attempt in the capital.

If this was a 100K game then I might agree with you, though I would probably be arguing the case for Communism. As we seem to be trying for 20K in Amsterdam, I think Republic is our best possible government choice.
 
750 AD (0):
change deal with celts from 30 gpt to incense+9gpt+15g for their dyes
think about stopping research to get bach and shakes, but 17 turns is pretty long to much to avoid all the coming wonders...
:hm: lyons is building pentagon, i'll delay research and try to grab another wonder with lyons (smith?)... (calculated over 40 turns for cuzco to build 480 shields, camulodunum seems to need even more, lyons 27)
stop research
upgrade some units
change muskets to SM

IBT:
celts pull units N :) (i hope we won't regret the additional 4 turns of peace from my deal)
avignon: market->worker
dijon: SM->temple
syracuse: temple->duct

760 AD (1):
rush temple i should have rushed last turn :blush:
sink carth galley
change rome: temple->court

IBT:
tours: SM->worker
besancon: tmple->SM
rouen: granary->temple
iron city (andawhatever): temple->granary

770 AD (2):
rush court in neapolis
change rheims: SM->cath

IBT:
sink carth galley
ravenna: court->market
tours: worker->bank
neapolis: court->duct
avignon: worker->duct

IBT:
hannibal wants peace, no
paris: cath->bank
greeks start bach (don't know where sparta is, can't calculate turns)

IBT:
celts, incas sign peace

IBT (800 AD):
sink carth galley
dijon: temple->bank

810 AD (6):
celts and incas got demo
set science to 20

IBT:
hiawatha wants incense->war
demo in->eco
besancan: SM->bank
kahnawake: temple->market
ceasar: barracks->worker

820 AD (7):
incas give us 8 gpt+16g for peace
pillage cath salt
increase science (eco in 4)

830 AD (8):
kill some iros

IBT:
iros move a lot of units toward iron city
marseille:bank->knight
rouen: temple->bank
ceasar: worker->duct

840 AD (9):
kill some iros

IBT:
amiens: temple->granary
iros start bach

850 AD (10):
kill some iros


notes:
mess near iron city, 1 army should be ready next turn (let some units with movement there)
stopped research and delayed pentagon prebuild to time with bach (i'm obsessed with stopping the cascade, i hope this won't backfire because somebody gets FA. sometimes you need to gamble :cool: )
greek would give chem&some change for demo
carth would pay for peace, 6 more turns MA with greeks
built mainly markets/banks
 
Got it. Playing now.
 
Early - Pillaged Carthage lands cutting all Hannibal's trade routes. Played lacrosse with Hiawatha, our polo team (knights and AC's) against his MDI, piles and muskets. Our sticks were longer and our horses faster. He lost twelve units, we lost none.

Middle - After the carnage in the NW Hiawatha willing to smoke peace pipe. Celts had learned Democracy so swapped Democracy for Chemistry and what little cash he had included in the peace deal. When Greek alliance expired made peace with Carthage. Just before Bach's finished Celts learned FA, sold it around and everybody started Shake's.

Late - Bach's finished right on time and Amsterdam moved right to Shake's. We have double the production of everybody else and will finish in good time (16 turns vs 32) unless somebody pulls an SGL.

Celats are getting shirty - demanding tribute and exercising troops on the northern border.

20K ETA date is 1810 (t370).

I lost our Pentagon pre-build. Missed the fact that Lyon was building it and it finished there same turn as Bachs' in Amsterdam. I don't think it's a problem, though, as IA wonders get more expensive anyway and our productivity is at least double that of the other guys and will only get better.

Time to build some cannon. MilTrad is avaiable for purchase but I am loath to feed gold into the other guys. I did cut a deal with Inca for our Incense, as I think we are going to need a counter weight against the Celts soon, and we could use the cash.

Re the Democracy debate: In a recent game a switch from Republic to Democracy boosted income from cities by ~30gpt, and lowered corruption loss ~20gpt, and unit support cost dropped ~15 (nation has some <7 fishing villes in the tundra) so there is still a commercial benefit to a democratic government in C3C.
 
I got it. :)

Bede said:
...unless somebody pulls an SGL.
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I had not thought of this as I always play with SGLs off. Does this mean you have enabled them in this game?

Btw I have been looking closer at the Democracy/Republic issue. I read the civilopedia closely and it seems to suggest that Democracy provides a production boost (ie. extra shields). I rarely use Democracy so I'm not sure.
 
Re SGL: I don't remember exactly, but I usually don't mess with the default rules, so they are probably enabled.
 
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