Best Chivalry UU?

[prince_caspian]

It's a little puzzling why the game has most UUs founded on Chivalry, Steel, Gunpowder, etc as that forces most civs to beeline to those techs. It gets rather prosaic after some time. Anyway what would be the best Chivalry UU in your opinion?

For me it'd be keshiks, of all the ranged units they can get logistics fastest, they spawn khans like no tomorrow and retreating 4 tiles away after shooting is the most despicable, cowardly, yet cheap and effective tactic I've ever seen. Probably what the Mongols really did when they devastated Poland.

 

[nitevision]

Keshiks are the obvious answer, but I find Siamese Elephants very fun to play with.

 

[snarzberry]

For me it'd be keshiks, of all the ranged units they can get logistics fastest, they spawn khans like no tomorrow and retreating 4 tiles away after shooting is the most despicable, cowardly, yet cheap and effective tactic I've ever seen. Probably what the Mongols really did when they devastated Poland.

Close , actually they retreated four tiles and then started shooting.

 

[FeiLing]

Mandelaku are the worst imho. The fact that they are losing their trait (no penalty when attacking cities) when you upgrade them pisses me off.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Mandelaku are the worst imho. The fact that they are losing their trait (no penalty when attacking cities) when you upgrade them pisses me off.

Don't they all lose it?
At least mandecavs don't lose terrain promotions, unlike keshiks. Yet, nobody (well, nobody reasonable ) claims keshiks are the worst. I love mandecavs. They maybe aren't that special on paper but Songhai UA makes them super awesome.

I honestly think all of Chivalry UU's are OP'ed. Upgrade issues don't indicate weakness of any of those really. The opposite is the true. They all are so good that cause next level units in their upgrade path to look very bad and an upgrade itself a non worthwhile investment.

 

[FeiLing]

You don't upgrade Keshiks
(You don't even upgrade Crossbowman unless they have no/hardly any promotions yet. They'll always be more useful as ranged units (with logistics, it's guaranteed 2 dmg per turn to a city of 80 or more strength.)

All units keep their unique traits on upgrading (for e.g. Iroquis Mohawks --> Longswordmen with Forest/Jungle fight bonus.

Just a few exceptions... or not sure... Madelaku may even be the only unit, that loses their unique ability. And without it they are just regular Knights anyway.
(Note: Chu-Ko-Nus for e.g. don't lose their ability, they just can't use it anymore when going from ranged to a melee unit - theor upgrade path may also change in G&K so they upgrade into a ranged unit^^)

 

[JeanBaptiste]

(Note: Chu-Ko-Nus for e.g. don't lose their ability, they just can't use it anymore when going from ranged to a melee unit - theor upgrade path may also change in G&K so they upgrade into a ranged unit^^)

Sure they can use it, they can attack twice

 

[JeanBaptiste]

I'd like to hear arguments from those who voted for anything other than the Keshik. If it is the BEST chivalry UU we are discussing, nothing beats it. If we talk about favorites, then I think the Conquistador is the most fun. Keshiks are too easy and becomes boring after some time playing.

 

[drubell]

It's really a difficult choice to pick between keshiks and conquistadors. I love conquistadors; they have the 2 extra sight AND don't have the city penalty. A very fast and powerful melee horse unit that can race through cities at lightning speed and can see everything? Count me in. But of course, keshiks..

Now if I could only have them both at the same time, well!

 

[prince_caspian]

It seems both a good and bad thing that keshiks simply steamroll through everything and not even its contemporaries have a satisfactory answer for them. I believe that a Steel or Gunpowder UU poll would be far more inconclusive.

 

[strijder20]

Wait a minute... some people did not vote for Keshiks?

 

[The Pilgrim]

You don't upgrade Keshiks

First of all, you don't have to upgrade manducavs either. It's your choice.
Second of all, of course you do. If you cannot clear the map relatively quickly you'll have to upgrade them to tanks eventually. There are continents maps, huge maps, quick speed and just lack of skill to never need anything but keshiks.
Thus holy keshiks and less holy CA will lose all their promotions except for logistics. Which is obviously the best of them all, but still with penalty against cities double attacking tanks are not the most magnificent thing on earth.

(You don't even upgrade Crossbowman unless they have no/hardly any promotions yet. They'll always be more useful as ranged units (with logistics, it's guaranteed 2 dmg per turn to a city of 80 or more strength.)

Thanks for the enlightenment , but that's completely irrelevant.
It only proves my point: some units are just too good the way they are that their upgrades look bad in comparison.

All units keep their unique traits on upgrading (for e.g. Iroquis Mohawks --> Longswordmen with Forest/Jungle fight bonus.

I was talking about Chivalry UU's. Don't they all lose their special abilities upon upgrade? Had that been such important criteria, keshiks would have been the worst unit out there.

Just a few exceptions... or not sure... Madelaku may even be the only unit, that loses their unique ability. And without it they are just regular Knights anyway.
(Note: Chu-Ko-Nus for e.g. don't lose their ability, they just can't use it anymore when going from ranged to a melee unit - theor upgrade path may also change in G&K so they upgrade into a ranged unit^^)

You want to tell me that cavalry upgraded from conquistador can found a city? And we already covered keshiks and camel archers.
The only ones I'm not sure about is siamesse elephants. Do they keep the bonus vs. mounted or become a regular cavalry vulnerable to mounted? If they don't, their upgrade is arguably even more pointless than keshiks'. And not to mention that being penalized against cities they are less powerful in offense than manducavs to begin with. And slower.

So, JeanBaptiste, here is your answer. I was sure I voted earlier today, but since I didn't and the poll allows multiple choice, I'm going to vote for both. Keshiks and manducavs. Not b/c I think they are equally good (who am I kidding, right? ) but to make poor manducavs some justice. They don't deserve to end up at the bottom of FeiLing's list.

 

[mintcandy]

I know of a feasible way to make Keshiks even MORE broken than they already are.

Have them upgrade to Cannons instead of Cavalry!

I know which UU I dislike seeing from the AI: Narusan's Elephant. When the AI spams these, I have difficulty rooting them out because Pikemen aren't something I typically have a lot of.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Have them upgrade to Cannons instead of Cavalry!

Nah... Rocket artillery. Or basic artillery at the very least. Let's not be greedy.

I know which UU I dislike seeing from the AI: Narusan's Elephant. When the AI spams these, I have difficulty rooting them out because Pikemen aren't something I typically have a lot of.

Oh yeah, they are so so attackers but superb defenders.

 

[rw42]

Been working on the Mongol Scenario for a while and I find it hard to fault a vote for keshiks.

 

[janboruta]

The obvious answer is Keshiks. They are so deliciously overpowered... In human hands they are unstoppable, but the AI can't do much with them, unless against another AI. With Keshiks I can conquer the world by Renaissance, it's so broken - but also fun. And it reflects the rapid Mongolian conquests pretty well.

However, I voted for Conquistadores in the poll. They aren't as flexible as Keshiks but pack quite a punch in melee - I remember a game where Isabella obliterated half of my army using only Conquistadors I also made good use of them recently, though they were an easy prey for Siamese Elephants. However, their city attack bonus evens them out. Their ability to settle cities in new continents is great and I frequently make us of it (defense in foreign land against savages and immediate city plopping? Awesome!)

 

[prince_caspian]

I know of a feasible way to make Keshiks even MORE broken than they already are.

Have them upgrade to Cannons instead of Cavalry!

I know which UU I dislike seeing from the AI: Narusan's Elephant. When the AI spams these, I have difficulty rooting them out because Pikemen aren't something I typically have a lot of.

But they're still quite broken as cavalry. Quick study + khan spawning + logistics, especially the khan spawning...makes you wonder why even play China or Japan in the first place, what's 35% combat bonus to +2 heal per turn? I still have 20%!

The only thing I regretted in this forum was trusting the word of the stickied civ guide..."China and Japan tied for best warmongering trait"? So nooooottt true! Mongols are the worst warmongering offenders and that's just because of them damn keshiks!

If G&K allows all ranged units including keshiks/camel archers to upgrade to machine guns...I'd be like omg

 

[jeffah3539]

Keshiks are obviously powerful but they are also very high maintenance. You have to constantly move in and out with them to use them properly (hence why they aren't all that great for the AI) and I bet they aren't that great in multiplayer (don't know for sure since I don't MP) because of simultaneous moves allowing your opponent to pick them off when you move in to shoot. The other thing I don't like about them is that they can't capture cities so you always need other units with your army to do the capturing. Not the end of the world but I'm nitpicking reasons why they aren't omnipotent as some imply.

I voted for Mandekalus because I find that Civ warfare is generally just a series of sieges so any unit that is geared towards quickly taking cities is great in my book. I am playing a Succession Game right now as Askia (here if you are interested) and I was amazed at just how powerful they are. I thought for sure that once Pikemen started coming out they would lose their effectiveness but their movement allowed us to out-maneuver the AI and we hardly ever lost one. We could also set up blitz attacks against AI cities and sometimes take them in 1 turn before the AI could mount any defense.

 

[mintcandy]

Nah... Rocket artillery. Or basic artillery at the very least. Let's not be greedy.

Hey, if artillery < rocket artillery -> artillery is less broken than rocket artillery, and cannon < artillery, then cannon must be LESS broken than artillery.

Oh yeah, they are so so attackers but superb defenders.

I've made it a habit to take out Siam as quickly as possible for this very reason. I hate seeing those Narusan Abominations roll up on my city assault forces.

 

[mintcandy]

But they're still quite broken as cavalry. Quick study....

Now that's something I hadn't exactly thought of, that is, building a few Keshiks from cities without Barracks, and upgrading them into Cavalry and Tanks.

Meh, it seems kind of like a loser mentality to me because Quick Study is a nice ability, but not quite worth basing a Cavalry/Tank strategy off of. Why not just try and push the advantage with the Keshiks, rather than plan for their eventual obsoleting?