Best CIV that can FULLY IGNORE Religion

[consentient]

I agree with this. That said, (1) it is quite easy and reliable to get a pantheon, and (2) if you found, it is easy to get and keep your religion in your core cities.

if #1

founding has very little opportunity cost

If (#2) you are lucky enough to start next to a faith pantheon that is going to give you a religion whatever you do (Salt/maybe quarries/etc) then sure, founding has no opportunity cost. But no direct cost either.

If you have to do ANYTHING in order to found (and bear in mind that you've admitted that it could all be pointless 2/3 times out of 5) then there most certainly IS an opportunity cost.

Given that taking a capital on T70 is the best way to get a decent 4th city, building shrines and prioritising activating faith pantheons that come from improvements (quarries) over other things you might more optimally want to do (chopping, mainly), then it could literally mean that you miss the window altogether.

If you are determined to play peaceful, then sure, religion becomes more worth it, but conquest is always going to be more effective than any founded religion. When I want the best religion going, I take it from the AI, just like any wonder I want, any nice lands, etc.

It really isn't true that there is no opportunity cost.

If you still disagree, let's have a game using Standard/Standard and you try to found, and I'll come knocking on your door T70, if Oda doesn't beat me to it You can give yourself 4 salts in the capital and it won't make a lick of difference

 

[beetle]

if #1

Pantheons are easy to get: shrine in cap after scouts. Pantheons are a good value even if not faith generating. Shrines are about the same hammers as an archer (but available earlier), but that's the opportunity cost for pantheon and maybe for found too.

If (#2) you are lucky enough to start next to a faith pantheon that is going to give you a religion whatever you do (Salt/maybe quarries/etc) then sure, founding has no opportunity cost.

Yes, good faith dirt lets me found in half my games, maybe more. One can also get lucky with CS quests and ruins, maybe settle a faith mountain.

But no direct cost either.

Well, there is the 200 + 300 faith for 2x GPr that won't being going towards a GS/GE.

If you have to do ANYTHING in order to found (and bear in mind that you've admitted that it could all be pointless 2/3 times out of 5) then there most certainly IS an opportunity cost.

The CS quests, popping ruins, settling Natural Wonders -- all part of my usual play.

Given that taking a capital on T70 is the best way to get a decent 4th city, building shrines and prioritising activating faith pantheons that come from improvements (quarries) over other things you might more optimally want to do (chopping, mainly), then it could literally mean that you miss the window altogether.

Hmm, I do chops after improving specials (but before farms and mines). I might want to think about that. But one more archer is not going to get me a cap by T70.

...conquest is always going to be more effective than any founded religion.

Yes, but the cost of founding -- one archer -- is not going to much slow your conquests.

When I want the best religion going, I take it from the AI...

We went over this in another thread recently, that does not really work. No CS quests, no founder benefits, no GPr (so no faith-efficient way to spread).

 

[reddishrecue]

Pantheons are easy to get: shrine in cap after scouts. Pantheons are a good value even if not faith generating. Shrines are about the same hammers as an archer (but available earlier), but that's the opportunity cost for pantheon and maybe for found too.

Shrine before monument could speed up the time you get your pantheon since you don't really need that much culture for the beginning social policies then, right?

The CS quests, popping ruins, settling Natural Wonders -- all part of my usual play.

I've rarely done this and done it in a 'why not?' basis whether the NW is in my city's borders, great which is rare because other civilizations usually prioritize settling on lands next to NWs so that the NW could be in their cultural borders.

Yes, but the cost of founding -- one archer -- is not going to much slow your conquests.

Why not try the mayans? Their atlalists require 36 hammers (while the archer requires 40).

We went over this in another thread recently, that does not really work. No CS quests, no founder benefits, no GPr (so no faith-efficient way to spread).

That would be relying on luck. One can't always get a good religion like this. If, however, you do get lucky, you could get to use the religion well.