Best use of a great engineer?

[Silu]

I rate GEs so high that there's just a handful of wonders I consider rushing. I'd never rush the Colossus for example, IMO it's a bad wonder (and a fast build as well, the forge is actually harder to build than the Colossus itself with Copper). 'Mids, TGL, Notre Dame and Ironworks are the usual suspects. Maybe the Kremlin in some situations. SoL is a bit more situational, as GE can rush just half of it. Otherwise I'll just MiningInc/settle it. Rushing an "unplanned" wonder through the "oh, shiny!" effect is a waste of a GE imo

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The Colossus example shown above was in a situation where it was almost a guaranteed loss but thanks to GE, could get it.

I've never had a game where I could rush the 'Mids with a GE. Would have to Oracle Metalcasting, build a forge, run an engineer, and be PHI for this to even be a consideration.

Great Library with marble is much easier to get than Colossus with copper IMO (unless Oracle -> Metalcasting of course).

FIN leaders with Colossus is awesome. 2 4 tiles for all coastal/lake tiles? Yes please. It makes early coastal cities with no riverside tiles much better. Seafood tiles become super-tiles 54. Really, I'll only go for Colossus with a FIN leader, though, as there are many other things to be done that are better for non-FIN leaders.

Settling a single GE (3 3) with no hope of getting another seems like much more of a waste IMO. Keep him for later Mining Inc. Or rush Parthenon while you are building the Great Library so that the Caste System switch for great people is super-amped.

 

[Virtual Alex]

I don't really understand why you keep saying settling one is useless but settling many is useful. It doesn't seem logical especially in the way you are saying they are being settled in your bureaucracy capital.

Settled GEs don't amplify or anything. Settling a single GE will give you +3 settling 3 GEs will give you +9 why is one of these MORE worth it than another? Each settled GE helps the capital as much as a settled GE can help the capital. If you are saying it's better to rush a wonder or start a corp with a GE then I understand. But I get a weird vibe that if you can settle a bunch of them, it somehow overshadows doing anything else with them.

Another huge bonus to rushing the G-lib is you essentially get 20-30 "free" turns of 2-scientist GPP growth. Since instead of spending turns building the wonder you spend those turns reaping it's rewards. Doing all this talking about the benefits of rushing the GLib is really getting me excited to do it more often.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

But I get a weird vibe that if you can settle a bunch of them, it somehow overshadows doing anything else with them.

+3 per turn in a bureaucracy capital is peanuts (becomes 4.5). Settling 3 and 1 prophet +11 per turn is worth it (becomes 16.5) and only balloons further with other production bonuses forge/factory/power:
1 settled GE (7.5), 3 settled GE 1 settled GP (27.5).

So if I'm looking at a 1 GE/GP-per-game situation, I'd rather rush a wonder or save for Mining Inc. See?

 

[Virtual Alex]

Well first I would like to narrow this debate down a little. I don't know why there is a GP involved. This isn't about a GP and he has nothing to do with GE or the value of GEs.

Of course I totally understand what you are saying, more settled dudes = more total hammers from settled dudes. That's understandable. What I am saying is the value of a settled GE does not get any higher by stacking settled GEs. So if you think using 1 GE to bulb or rush a wonder if it's going to be your only one, then why doesn't it make sense to use your first GE to bulb or rush even if you will get many more?

You are treating it as some kind of threshold saying "If I can get +20 with settled specialists than I will settle them all. Otherwise I will use them for other things." and that isn't logical. It would be logical if multiple settled GEs had some kind of multiplier while working together.

By the way while we are kind of at it. What does this game do with 4.5 hammers? How does it round these? Or doesn't it round them at all?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You are treating it as some kind of threshold saying "If I can get +20 with settled specialists than I will settle them all. Otherwise I will use them for other things." and that isn't logical. It would be logical if multiple settled GEs had some kind of multiplier while working together.

No, I'm saying that a single settled GE is only worth 3 hammers and that's pathetic. Nothing more.

You are way over analyzing this.

I used a GP in there b/c this whole side discussion spawned off of the OP mentioning settling hammer based great people and included Prophet in his post somehwere on page 2. Also, you're not likely to get too many GE early in a given game unless PHI and completely focused on GE.

My only point is if I'm only getting 1 GE, I'd rather grab a free wonder that will boost my current game. If no wonder will boost my game, perhaps bulbing a tech will. If not, saving him for Mining inc is much more desirable. Using a rare GE (IE only 1 in a game) for 3 hammers is ridiculous IMO.

 

[Virtual Alex]

I agree with you, I think settling GEs is terrible at any point in the game.

But saying 1 settled GE is peanuts, but 3 settled GEs is something is like saying $1 is nothing but $3 is something. Although it's true that $3 is more than $1 the actual value of a dollar has not changed.

I guess you are saying if you are going to invest $1 (settle GEs) than you would rather invest $3 and spend the $1 on a pack of gum. I guess I can see that logic.

I am saying you should just buy 3 packs of gum.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I wouldn't settle ALL my GEs if getting multiple per game.

I'd save 1 for Mining Inc.

But if I can settle 3 and get mining inc, I'll do that. Because settling 3 is more worth it because I'll be earning 21-22 hammers per turn (all regular multipliers in bureau capital) JUST from GEs.

 

[popejubal]

If there's a REALLY good wonder available, I'll rush it (assuming I can't build it in a reasonable amount of time without the rush).

In the very early game, though, building Pyramids can get you a Great Engineer and settling that GE in a high quality cottaged capital makes an enormous difference in your game. Those extra hammers turn out to be huge in a Bureaucracy commerce city and you get nearly as many beakers from the GE as you do from a Great Scientist.

I find that I get roughly the same benefit from a settled Great Engineer in the next 30 turns as I would have from burning him on a quick wonder. You need to work a grassland hill and a grasslanf farm to get 3 hammers and not lose food in the deal - and you are now two citizens closer to your and caps as well. The settled Great Engineer gives you those hammers for "free" and he gives you research as well.

I'm a fan. Obviously, if someone else discovered Literacy a while ago and I just built my 3rd Library, I'll be seriously tempted to rush the Great Library with him, but I'm not going to spend him on a wonder unless it's a really good one.
Archipleago Great Lighthouse, perhaps.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Mining Inc can provide 16+ hammers per turn to all your cities (assume 10) so 160 hammers per turn >>>>>>>>>>> 3 hammers 3 science per turn IMO

 

[popejubal]

One quick thought on rushing: if you're going to do it, look at how many hammers he'll contribute.

If you need 1200 hammers for the wonder and he'll contribute 900, don't spend him. If an AI completes the wonder, you'll kick yourself for centuries to come. Wait until you have almost 300 hammers and then spend the Great Engineer so that the wonder will be completed in the next turn.

Not only does this reduce the risk of spending a Great Engineer on a wonder that you're not going to end up getting, it also will probably get more out of the Great Engineer as well. This is because the GE gives you a set number of hammers, plus he gives you a number of hammers per population point in the city. If the city grows between now and when you spend the GE, you end up getting more hammers out of him.

 

[popejubal]

Mining Inc can provide 16+ hammers per turn to all your cities (assume 10) so 160 hammers per turn >>>>>>>>>>> 3 hammers 3 science per turn IMO

Mining Inc is certainly better than settling in the late game (unless you've decided on Creative Construction for some reason), but I was specifically talking about the early game. When your capital is producing 7 hammers per turn, an extra 3 is a very big deal. When your capital is producing 60 hammers per turn (before multipliers), that extra 3 doesn't seem so significant.

Late game Great Anythings should be saved for Golden Ages or Corporations as far as I'm concerned.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

When your capital is producing 7 hammers per turn, an extra 3 is a very big deal.

By the time 'Mids would produce a GE, I'm pulling more like 12-15 hammers per turn. I'd still rather rush a strategy-friendly wonder or bulb Machinery or similar tech.

Different strokes, right?

 

[Grey Fox]

Settling a Great Engineer might yield you more wonders than rushing one. (Ever been beaten by 1 turn? Well maybe if you had just a few more hammers, eh?) And as blitz says, becomes way strong if you settle many, especially in a bureaucracy capital with Oxford (and maybe a few settled Great Scientists).

I usually never rush wonders with it, but I decide what do do with them when I get em.
Often there aren't any wonders to be rushed, and many times the Bulbing isn't that strong.
But I have bulbed with Great Engineers. I once got to Gunpowder really fast with an Engineer+Merchant bulb path. (Though in hindsight I would probably not have done the same thing now, but I was the Ottomans and I did get a lot out of my UU that game)

I also sometimes rush West Point in the Heroic Epic city.

I usually prefer getting Creative Constructions over Mining Inc. (Mining Inc can't be coupled with Aluminum Co. or Civilized Jewelers)
At least if it's the Money I am after, and if I think I can get the 3 other corps that I can get together with it. 4 Corps can be an insane amount of gold per turn. Though I recommend using a civ with either maintenance reducing UB or gold boosting UB.
Mining Inc is a nice choice too though. Especially if you are going for a military win.

Some games in the lage game, Great Engineers seem to be born like dime a dozen, and then I often use them for Golden Ages together with whatever Great Persons I can get.

 

[Hsinchu]

Pick a victory condition.

Domination/Conquest: Settle or Bulb for production advantage
Cultural: Rush Wonder or Settle
Diplomatic/Space: Rush Taj, Golden Ages

Great Engineers are the "best" Great Person since the wonders that crank them out are extremely limited and the Forge is the primary pusher for GEs for a fat slice of the game. I've had a game where all of my produced GPs were GEs and the only non GEs were from Tech wins, but that was alot of hard work and praying that GEs spawned every time in the big wonder cities where Engineer only contributes about half of the GP points.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Domination/Conquest: Settle or Bulb for production advantage
Cultural: Rush Wonder or Settle
Diplomatic/Space: Rush Taj, Golden Ages

Disagree with a couple here.

Domination/Conquest: Settle, Bulb, rush SoZ, or found a corporation
Cultural: Settle, bulb (to stay ahead militarily), rush Sistine, or found a corporation
Diplo/Space: settle or found a corporation

 

[DABegley]

I would argue that Sistine is a good rush candidate for any victory condition. The +5 culture for religious buildings/+2 culture for specialists shifts border culture wars majorly in your favor. That is amazingly helpful no matter what you are aiming at. I tend to try and get the GL without rushing, will rush it if I am afraid of losing it. I tend to whip/chop the GL. Sistine and Path are the major rush targets for me depending on what I am trying to do. Otherwise I tend to settle GEs.

 

[Virtual Alex]

Alright I just checked it out. The great Library is 350 hammers. An engineer can build it in 1 turn netting you 350 hammers.

A settled Engineer is +3 Hammers per turn. So all bonuses aside it will take a settled GE ~115 turns to even out the number of hammers of rushing this particular wonder. (I realize I am ignore the beakers he makes) Only after that 115 turns will he start contributing above and beyond being used to rush one wonder. So in this comparison you don't actually get a better return on him until much later in the game.

Of course there is a beaker benefit also but I am counting that for less, because rushing a wonder lets you "use" that wonder for 20-35 more turns sooner, as well as buy that city 20-35 more turns of production. So I am willing to call that a wash.

Also as stated before, 3 hammers is like an extra mined hill early in the game, and that is very valuable when you only actually have 4 mined hills. That is like a 25% increase in your total production. However late in the game when you have 40 mined hills, it's a drop in the bucket. Which further supports my points that investing a GE for the hammers. The later in the game it goes the less the hammers he contributes matter, even with bonuses. Getting a rush in the early game is way more important.

Now this is a matter of playstyle, but I feel that doing the right thing NOW is much better than investing in the future (in Civ4 terms). I feel that getting a wonder done sooner, reaping it's rewards longer, and having the city free to build military sooner is a much better investment than letting a settled GE generate 1000 over 300 turns. Not all people think this way. I have a friend who gives all of his warriors city raider even if they are just scouting just in case they will be upgraded to macemen later. I would much rather give them woodsman or medic so they can do a better job scouting now.

 

[lilnev]

Unless the 'Mids are still available (rare), I save him for Mining Inc. I play for domination on large hard maps, so I'm always warring in the late game. Mining Inc becomes the single largest factor in my empire's military output.

 

[popejubal]

By the time 'Mids would produce a GE, I'm pulling more like 12-15 hammers per turn.

A lot of that depends on the city too.

If you have a city with few hills, you might very well have pushed out the Pyramids with your second/third city and have a commerce madhouse in the Capital. This isn't always the case for me, but I've certainly had Capitals that weren't producing many hammers on their own, but were putting out a metric ton of commerce. In these cases, I think that settling the Great Engineer is a strong play simply because you're not going to have a whole lot of production in your Capital otherwise and you really want those multipliers built in the Capital even if they aren't going up anywhere else.