Best Use of Great Scientist - Science VC

[Woodszilla]

How late does it make sense to build academy? How are s calculated if you rush tech instead? Is there any tricks to maximizing the amount of s you get?

I just had a game where I had 8 GS's throughout the game. I only built an Academy with the first one, and then saved the rest til near the end of the game. I'm just not sure if that was efficient, having 5 GS's sleeping in cities for so many turns.

So what do you guys think? Academies until turn X? Bulb at key tech points or save til end? or bulb asap?

 

[joncnunn]

That sounds like you started as Babylon (unless you bought some via religion after reaching Industrial era).

In Vanilla, the portion about only building the Academy with the first one as Babylon and bulbing the rest is indeed ideal. (Everybody else bulbing with every GS)
It may have been better to use a few bulb into the next era much earlier than you could otherwise for era advancement bonuses and specific bee-lined expensive technologies instead of waiting until the very end of the game, but that doesn't appear to be your main question.

G&K: It is indeed a math problem for Babylon on when to stop using as an Academy and when to instead start using as a bulb for aprox 7-8 turns towards a key tech.
(I suspect that whichever one would help bulb you into Ren. Era if used in a few turns is the first to bulb instead of as an academy, but I haven't done the math.)
If your playing anybody other than Babylon, chances are by the time you get the first GS, it's already time to start using to bulb techs.

 

[budweiser]

I think I would want to bulb anything that got me to public schools and research labs faster.

 

[Woodszilla]

Yea, using a bulb to get to Renaissance faster to make sure you can go Tradition direct into Rationalism makes a lot of sense. But then do I keep bulbing my GS's after that? Right away when they are born, or save for key techs?

Regarding the math problem- when does a x b = c?
a = turns until all science VC needed techs are completed (hard to pin down with RA's and other factors)
b = bonus science from academy (tough to pin down, with university, observatory, research labs, and SPs coming at different times)
c = bonus science from bulbing?

How would you even approach that in a general sense? Seems really complicated.

 

[budweiser]

How many scientists can you make? Each one is worth 8 turns. I would want to finish the game in under 250 turns.

 

[Manlius]

How many scientists can you make? Each one is worth 8 turns. I would want to finish the game in under 250 turns.

It is not 8 turns but the sum of of your last 7 turns. At least that is what I use to time my last techs.

 

[joncnunn]

Yea, using a bulb to get to Renaissance faster to make sure you can go Tradition direct into Rationalism makes a lot of sense. But then do I keep bulbing my GS's after that? Right away when they are born, or save for key techs?

Regarding the math problem- when does a x b = c?
a = turns until all science VC needed techs are completed (hard to pin down with RA's and other factors)
b = bonus science from academy (tough to pin down, with university, observatory, research labs, and SPs coming at different times)
c = bonus science from bulbing?

How would you even approach that in a general sense? Seems really complicated.

I'll defer to the math wiz kids for that exact answer; the young are better suited for that than me.
But it looks to me like if your playing a normal civ and get GS via University specialists (its NOT a free one, nor sped up via Great Library or other science Great Wonders and your NOT Babylon) that your first one will always be after the bulb everything for key techs point.

And it's also clear that if by any means you get a Great Scientist while still in the Classical Era (or even Ancient [Babylon]) that its best to settle those.

I'm not sure where within the Midevil to Ren eras the cutoff point is in G&K; other than there being a huge edge into getting into Ren early so can't really help if you manage to get a GS right after you entered that era.

 

[Woodszilla]

That sounds like you started as Babylon (unless you bought some via religion after reaching Industrial era).

It was with Mayans. 1 from UA, 4 from Wonders, 2 from faith, 1 born regularly.


Anyway, So what do you think about this situation: You get a GS in Medieval, BUT you are going to hit Tradition finisher to Rationalism anyway without bulbing. Do you build an academy then?

 

[joncnunn]

It was with Mayans. 1 from UA, 4 from Wonders, 2 from faith, 1 born regularly.

Anyway, So what do you think about this situation: You get a GS in Medieval, BUT you are going to hit Tradition finisher to Rationalism anyway without bulbing. Do you build an academy then?

It sounds like its possible academy may be more beneficial if you can hit Tradition finisher to Rationalism opener without a filler anyway.

 

[Sidor1982]

I usually don't stick to a specific point when to stop using GS as an Academy, but make it strategy/gameplan dependent (although beyond researching Scientific Theory I bulb all of them - with sometimes keeping them for crucial techs).

When going OCC - 2,3 city games the point where I use GS as an academy moves further into Industrial era. When going wide (or a lot of conquers/puppets) I stop turning them into academies in the early rennaissaince.

The reason for that is because going OCC You don't have much of your own science beakers going and it makes sense to boost this parameter. When going with lots of cities You can generate science from the pure amount of science buildings, specialists in them and eventually terrain (jungles, natural wonders etc.) and bulbing GS will have more benefits

I also take into account the map size (and through that the amount of RA's I can sign). The amount of science from a settled GS will then get multiplied by the RA's. Additionally when going for this strategy You should remain friendly to sign RA's and not expand/attack too rapidly (so it also fits into the low city number strategy)

 

[Woodszilla]

Thanks for the responses guys. I don't have math to back it up, but I feel settling before renaissance and then bulbing after that, mostly at the end (maybe 1 early if it'll make the difference in getting tradition straight into rationalism; maybe bulb 1 to get public schools 8 turns sooner)

That just "feels" right to me after thinking about it.

Since another thread with this same topic has been created, maybe I can ask a different sciency question?

Plantations on bananas/oranges vs leaving the jungle for science with universities? What do you guys think about that? Does the extra / make up for the 2 lost?

 

[KGPurrs]

Leave Bananas in Jungle and Trade Post them.

They become 4 Food, 3 Science, 3 Gold (4 if on River)

 

[Woodszilla]

Leave Bananas in Jungle and Trade Post them.

They become 4 Food, 3 Science, 3 Gold (4 if on River)

can't build a TP over a resource, I wish you could.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i never build the banana plantation. if it was considered a lux i would but the +2 sci is always better to me since it isnt.

i also settle academies up to about t150-165 or so, roughly when im about to bulb to Plastics with Oxford. after that I hold onto them until I have had Labs in every city for a minimum of 8 turns for max results (usually only new pop will change that so 'max result might seem deceptive). i also make sure to re-appropriate citizens to sci slots and jungle tiles during those 8 turns (of they werent there already).

 

[beezany]

Sorry to double up your thread, Woodszilla! Apparently, we were thinking alike yesterday.

It is not 8 turns but the sum of of your last 7 turns. At least that is what I use to time my last techs.

I thought bulbs gave you the total beakers from your last 8 turns? That's why you shouldn't use them within 8 turns of a growth spurt.

i never build the banana plantation. if it was considered a lux i would but the +2 sci is always better to me since it isnt.

i also settle academies up to about t150-165 or so, roughly when im about to bulb to Plastics with Oxford. after that I hold onto them until I have had Labs in every city for a minimum of 8 turns for max results (usually only new pop will change that so 'max result might seem deceptive). i also make sure to re-appropriate citizens to sci slots and jungle tiles during those 8 turns (of they werent there already).

I found interesting results when I took a hard look at the numbers. Late bulbs have a much bigger effect than early ones. Even as late as Plastics, using a bulb can cost you a turn or two because of later population growth.

However, I see tons of people remark that they miscalculated how many scientists they needed at the end of the game and ended up wasting some, or never using Oxford. If you use all of your late scientists as you get them, you might waste a few turns, but you can consider that insurance against wasting a whole scientist later because of miscalculation.

 

[Halcyan2]

can't build a TP over a resource, I wish you could.

The only exception is if you build a TP over a strategic resource before it is revealed.

Occasionally, I will be fortunate enough to have jungle TP's and then get a slight production boost when I discover Coal / Aluminum / Oil / Uranium on that tile. If I have other ways to access the resource, I often keep the trading post.

Main pain is that jungle TP's take an awfully long time to build....

 

[Woodszilla]

Sorry to double up your thread, Woodszilla! Apparently, we were thinking alike yesterday.

No worries. As long as there is good discussion, doesn't matter whose thread it's on. That GOTM54 really gave you the space to contemplate how to science most efficiently. No one DOW'd me the whole game, lots of mountains and jungles. Once I finish 55, I'm gonna play it again.

I found interesting results when I took a hard look at the numbers. Late bulbs have a much bigger effect than early ones. Even as late as Plastics, using a bulb can cost you a turn or two because of later population growth.

However, I see tons of people remark that they miscalculated how many scientists they needed at the end of the game and ended up wasting some, or never using Oxford. If you use all of your late scientists as you get them, you might waste a few turns, but you can consider that insurance against wasting a whole scientist later because of miscalculation.

Yea, I ran into that problem in GOTM54... I saved them too long (and even forgot to build oxford) I could have easily shaved 10-15 turns off my time with just that. My initial thought was to start bulbing 8 turns after Atomic Theory, but I didn't bulb all at once.

The main thing that bothered me about this was I had scienctists sleeping in cities for up to 100 turns. Made me question the efficiency of it. Now I hear that keeping a scientist around costs maintenance too. Anyone know how much?

Main pain is that jungle TP's take an awfully long time to build....

What is it, 15 turns without Pyramids or Citizenship? Total pain.

 

[beezany]

Now I hear that keeping a scientist around costs maintenance too. Anyone know how much?

That's correct. As far as I know, all units cost the same: military, workers, great people.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I found interesting results when I took a hard look at the numbers. Late bulbs have a much bigger effect than early ones. Even as late as Plastics, using a bulb can cost you a turn or two because of later population growth.

However, I see tons of people remark that they miscalculated how many scientists they needed at the end of the game and ended up wasting some, or never using Oxford. If you use all of your late scientists as you get them, you might waste a few turns, but you can consider that insurance against wasting a whole scientist later because of miscalculation.

Most of that is how you time your techs. When I get Rocketry it is usually at the apex of my techs and i have several on both sides well behind it so Im waiting on a couple RAs to pop. I often hold some GSs longer than 8 turns but only because I want them for SS techs so i can start building them. Halcyan2 actually prebuilds for Apollo because his techs are more caught up when he gets to Rocketry (something i need to try with earlier RAs) and his bulbs finish the rest of the techs so that when Apollo is done its nothing but SS parts til the end. Ive never gotten that kind of timing. I get Apollo, then a couple RAs, then GE Hubble and hold those 2 for 8 turns for my last couple. I dont have to prebuild APollo cuz it's usually done normally by the time i can build parts anyway. When i finish Apollo I still have another 30-40 turns to i finish the game. I've even had time to sign one more RA as its building. I think for Halcyan2 it's more like 10-20. Since he finishes much faster than me I need try it differently, mostly with the RAs. I find it so difficult to get many of them at Immo/Deity as well as not having them fizzle from dilpo relations eroding (particularly unforeseen crap like fulfilling uncontrollable CS quests that your RA partner now hates you for or DoF'ing their enemy for another RA and they hate you for that).

 

[Manlius]

I thought bulbs gave you the total beakers from your last 8 turns? That's why you shouldn't use them within 8 turns of a growth spurt.

I checked it with a Babylonian GS in the ancient era: 8 turns including the current turn. So you might wanna max out by filling all specialist slots before the bulb.

Then I performed another bulb in the information era: 8 turns amounted to 5437 beakers but I only got 4706. It is not exactly 15% less than expected but I guess the happiness based beakers from rationalism didn't count (rounding errors?).

That would explain why I'm doing better using a 7 turn estimate for my bulb fest.