Beta 12

[3Miro]

Now with that dynamic research cost, GP-bulbing seems far less useful now.
Any comment with this issue?

Do you mean that scientist are less useful? They probably are less useful, but they are still useful. It is not too difficult to get about 20 or so turns ahead of everyone else and with good timing, 20 turns can make a huge difference. How many cities can you get in 20 turns of Knight domination? Scientist are less useful then before and they require more strategic timing, but they are still useful.

 

[Veshta]

For long R&D projects they are useless, but once you get down below 20 turns they have a noticeable impact, especially when racing to critical techs.
Can't count the number of times bulbing the path of a tech like Public Works has saved me from collapsing .. stability buildings are almost as important as wonders some times even more so

GPs are fairly weak though, except the ever dominant engineers. Perhaps adding a few extra bulbs/coins/notes/whatever to them when they are settled would help bridge the gap.

Edit: Don't know if its a bug or not, but seems that I don't inherit the wars my vassals start. Spain started at war with Netherlands on their spawn but I am not at war with them, I did get Isabella's wars against Cordoba/Portugal when they were initially vassalized so must be the "start at war" thing.

 

[rock_star]

Scholars (and especially spies ) annoy the hell out of me when they pop up, but I usually save them for a Golden Age. If I'm Catholic, my first priority is to build a church ASAP and run a priest so I can found a military order (preferably Templars, since they can scout out the map and lead to big profit when it's time to trade mapae mundi, but Teutonics work as a condolence prize). After that, I run merchants for corps & settling, with the odd engineer thrown in.

The scholars do feel nerfed in this mod, but if used to trigger a Golden Age, they're still quite valuable to have around.

 

[Daffy]

Do you mean that scientist are less useful? They probably are less useful, but they are still useful. It is not too difficult to get about 20 or so turns ahead of everyone else and with good timing, 20 turns can make a huge difference. How many cities can you get in 20 turns of Knight domination? Scientist are less useful then before and they require more strategic timing, but they are still useful.

I think general bulbing was meant.
i.e. using a great priest to bulb divine right

the thing is that bulbing only gives about 1000 research points towards the tech
once you're around banking in tech the GP's become useless since pretty much all techs worth bulbing cost a hell of allot more. (like 10000 for divine right)


If I try to bulb banking I usually only get about half of the research from the bulbing, the rest has to be researched normally (saving 3 turns woohoo^^)

so basically the only techs that can be bulbed are techs early on or obsolete techs once you've passed them.

Currently I only use GP's either to found a corp, elsewise I settle them in a city.
Usually Great Priests (Hammers and Gold) or Great Merchants (Food and Gold)
When running Guilds/Apprenticeship Great Scientists can be quite nice too (Hammers and Research)
but they usually don't have much of an impact

p.s. due to the guild house there are also allot more Great Engineers spawning

 

[Daffy]

You cannot prosecute religion in Jerusalem, if you can then it is a bug. You can prosecure Jews form cities after you build the Temple Mount, but you cannot prosecute the city with the Temple Mount itself.

Again, Temple Mount is the Polish wonder representing the Polish tolerance for Jews (i.e. the Synagogue in Krakow or something similarly appropriate).

If you change the name you might also want to change the picture that shows up when you build the Temple Mount. I'm currently under the impression that it shows Jerusalem. (The Golden Dome in the backround)
I think that's another main reason for thinking that it's the Jerusalem Temple Mount..

 

[dale_bu]

I have found myself bulbing techs that can be bulbed instantly or to leave a turn or two.

Once past that point in the tech tree all my GPs go towards Golden Ages except any surplus ones (usually Engineers) who get settled.

Sometimes I find myself running three golden ages back to back when combining GP golden age, 2/3 victory conditions and Versailles all at the same time. 20+ turns of golden age gives a massive research, gold, and production boost.

Just generally from the GP golden ages, the extra benefits of the golden age seem to me to outweigh the benefits of several settle GPs.

 

[Daffy]

I think it depends on the civ played to says which is better
Settling GP's vs GA through GP
and the 20+ turn GA you mentioned was only 1/3 due to the GP's
Since I usually play the smaller civs like Genua, Portugal, Netherlands etc. a GA usually isn't that great concidering the amount of cities. Another factor would be how early you can settle a GP or how long that guy will be giving the bonus in the long run. And the boni from Guilds or wonders like Fontainebleu that affect specialists also affects settled GP's. But anyway I've always like the bonus food from great merchants (2 GM's = 1 bonus citizen/specialst).

But the reason for the posting...
umm I've tried several games with Portugal now and I've noticed that I almost always start at war with Cordoba. Sometimes France is already at war with me too.
I've just started a game with England and they start at war with France... :/
This was something that wasn't intentional iirc? (No bonus troops when cities flip since you're already at war)

and btw. it's nice to see Cordoba build the Alhambra, La Mezquita and Gardens of al Andalus most of the time, but they absolutely dominate Iberia since Spains AI seems even more stupid than usual (Or it's just Cordoba that's become so strong, kick my butt when playing Portugal, well not really but only a stalemate.. I'm not getting anywhere with them, but I don't play aggressive either)
Tried a game with Spain and had Cordoba wrestled down by the spawn of Portugal it wasn't even hard.. so it is possible.. it's just the AI that can't/won't
Have a save from Portugal in 1449 where Spain only has 3 cities in Spain but captured Florence and Genua while Cordoba owns the rest of Iberia

and for the sakes of the settled GP's a save from Genoa (I find Zena to be quite a nice city^^)
but I was extremely lucky in that game concidering what wonders I was able to build (Leaning Tower, La Lanterna etc.)

 

[dragodon64]

It is really nice to see Cordoba build its wonders. I think a few more of the obviously religious wonders should require state religion. This makes it a little bit more likely for the wonder to be built in its homeland or at least a similar society. Imo, the following religions should be necessary for the following wonders:

Catholicism- San Marco Basilica, Sistine Chapel
Orthodoxy- St. Basil's Cathedral
Paganism- Shrine of Uppsala

Muslim wonders are handled pretty well since most of them require Arabic Knowledge. Unfortunately, the Dome of the Rock is the only Muslim wonder that actually requires Islam. I can totally see why realism-wise, but it would be very nice to have the +50% GA length available on an accessible wonder.

 

[Veshta]

Cordoba's performance is very dependent on how hard they are hit by the 3-4 waves of barbarians early on. I have had Spanish starts where they are collapsed and Portuguese starts where the best Cordoban unit is the mighty archer .. others they have flooded the peninsula with Berber's and have Isabella reeling.

Spain usually wins out when the supermodel queen starts buying out crusades and get papal assistance though but can happen quite late..

 

[dale_bu]

In my current Beta 12 game as Austria, Cordoba has destroyed Portugal and has cities controlling 2/3 of the Iberian Peninsular. Spain has the northern 1/3.

Other observations:
- The arctic causeway is gone, meaning that Vikings/Sweden can't march troops to Finland without them getting wet feet (or vice versa). Sweden has proven to have accumulated less cities than Vikings in this game, although are more powerful in terms of their military.

- The gap in the mountains in southern Hungary between Hungary and Bulgaria is now a gaping hole! I don't recall if this was discussed but thought that it was worth a mention. No problem at all in the current game but could be for a Hungarian game vs an active Ottoman Empire.

- France and Burgundy split later French territories.

- Germany was pretty weak when Austria began (but that can be said for many player-neighbours on start).

- France has gained all of Outremer through the Crusades. Arabia seems weak (at least in this run).


- As others have mentioned - England struggles to control the whole of the British Isles due to Scotish rebellions. These mechanics seem to be working well. Have yet to play England on the current version to see how this affects a RL player.

- Vikings take an hour and a half to win with (including the time it takes to leave CIV going whilst cooking & eating dinner). This is funny but good as other civs are very long and painful in comparison (not specifically to this version - basically any of the ones that have late victory conditions).


Thanks for perservering with what is a wonderful MOD!

Last question - some time ago there was something posted that Lithuania was a placeholder and the UHVs were going to be redone for it. I am curious as to when this will happen and if there is any help needed to work out what these are. Lithuania is one civ I have failed repeatedly and would like to complete. I know almost nothing of their history so would have to research them to help with working out UHVs but am willing to do so if it will help!

 

[rock_star]

- Vikings take an hour and a half to win with (including the time it takes to leave CIV going whilst cooking & eating dinner). This is funny but good as other civs are very long and painful in comparison (not specifically to this version - basically any of the ones that have late victory conditions).

I'm torn on how I feel about this one - on one hand, true Civ players love the long games - E/M are the only proper ways to play the game. However, Civ makes real life so much harder to live (loss of sleep, late for work, blowing off more important things, etc. ), so mods with so MANY civs with unique play styles (damn Rhye for inventing UHVs!) make the game even worse. It is nice to have a few quick games here and there, and sometimes I wish a few more civs in the game had their 3rd UHVs occur a bit sooner, but at the same time the Epic/Marathon love makes me not care about long games, either.

The few truly quick games in this mod (Norse, Sweden, Dutch . . . well, as long as you don't include the waiting for the start of the last two, and if your rig is fast enough for the Late Ages turns to process at a reasonable speed) are still extremely fun to play, which is a testament to the work 3Miro, Absinthe Red & co. are doing with this mod - the quick games in regular RFC (like Egypt & Babylon) aren't nearly as fun, and feel too much like they're on rails, leaving you little-to-no breathing room if you're playing for the UHV. Great work lads!

 

[youtien]

Do you mean that scientist are less useful? They probably are less useful, but they are still useful. It is not too difficult to get about 20 or so turns ahead of everyone else and with good timing, 20 turns can make a huge difference. How many cities can you get in 20 turns of Knight domination? Scientist are less useful then before and they require more strategic timing, but they are still useful.

Maybe we can let them not only bulb techs, but also decrease further cost of all associated techs...for example, GS bulbs literature -> +1700 to literature and -5% cost from all techs GS can bulb.

This may be too complicated. But I think GPs could have some buff, like, -1 cost for golden age, free revolution in golden age like regular game...

 

[3Miro]

Maybe we can let them not only bulb techs, but also decrease further cost of all associated techs...for example, GS bulbs literature -> +1700 to literature and -5% cost from all techs GS can bulb.

This may be too complicated. But I think GPs could have some buff, like, -1 cost for golden age, free revolution in golden age like regular game...

I think I will just increase the beakers from the light-bulb, this should solve the issue.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I was also thinking of giving golden ages a little buff
Most cities don't have huge population or big production, so no real boost here.
The science (commerce) boost also worths less because the techs are preferably researched in a certain date.
So I feel GAs are a little weak in RFCE, giving them anarchy free revolutions seems like a good solution to me

 

[HockeySam18]

Just got home the other day and downloaded the new beta (12). You guys are doing an awesome job- so much improvement since the last time I played (beta 9)! Some of the UHVs still need some work, but still make for fun games (I love the German and French ones!)

Some things I have noticed-

-Cordoba is very weak (I beat them twice with starting units as Spain and Portugal, but they build their wonders.

-Byzantium is interesting- they lose east anatolia to arabs and seljuks, and collapse after Venice buys the Crusade, allowing Bulgaria to own all territory south of the danube. However, Venice collapses almost immediately after taking Constantinople.

As Ottomans I won in 1517, due to only having to fight indies, bulgaria, and Vienna (vassalized Hungary).

The scottish revolts work well- England can never hold on to their scottish cities. Also, if they can keep the norman city they flip, they have a tiny chance at getting the 1452 UHV, but that is rare due to the AI not being able to land SoDs.

Lithuania's unique unit is a god. I used a stack of ten of them to repel the mongols and then get the UHV. However, the AI never builds them, and gets steamrolled by keshiks.

Genoa's AI is excellent. The only thing with them is that city they build in corsica should be spelled Ajaccio, not Aiaccio.

Arabs are as good as dead once the crusades start. I recommend trying a mechanic where a "Jihad" occurs if they lose a city to crusaders and they receive units to take the city back.

Viking UHV is too easy. Maybe add the Shrine of Uppsala to the Vinland UHV. Also, if you really try, you can really rack up the viking points. In one game I got 86 (!)

All that said, there has been a tremendous amount of improvement. Civs actually go for at least some of their UHVs (specifically, Moscow always gets the barbarian one, Spain buys crusades and prosecutes to beat cordoba, and bulgaria gets their territorial one. Plague is a pain in the butt as it always comes at the worst time, but it is a nice challenge.

Just wondering, is there a way you can script wars into the game at certain years to mimic history? (You don't have to do every single european war from 500-1800 AD but some major ones, maybe even with some accompanying units would add some more flavor to the mod.

If there are any civs in specific you want playtested, just let me know and I'll cover it.

-HockeySam18

 

[rock_star]

I was also thinking of giving golden ages a little buff
Most cities don't have huge population or big production, so no real boost here.
The science (commerce) boost also worths less because the techs are preferably researched in a certain date.
So I feel GAs are a little weak in RFCE, giving them anarchy free revolutions seems like a good solution to me

Golden Ages erase existing anarchy (IE, switching civics/relgion, then using your great people on that same turn removes the anarchy instantly), however it's not quite the same as being able to change civics on the fly during a golden age like you can in SOI. Even adding this (or single-GP Golden Ages) would be a huge step forward.

 

[Morholt]

The only thing with them is that city they build in corsica should be spelled Ajaccio, not Aiaccio.

From what I've been able to find, Aiaccio is the original Italian spelling of the name, Ajaccio being more recent.

 

[merijn_v1]

Viking UHV is too easy. Maybe add the Shrine of Uppsala to the Vinland UHV. Also, if you really try, you can really rack up the viking points. In one game I got 86 (!)

Good points. I think 50 Viking Points or so is doable. And the Shrine isn't bad either, although it's a wonder in (modern day) Sweden.

 

[Wessel V1]

I was also thinking of giving golden ages a little buff
Most cities don't have huge population or big production, so no real boost here.
The science (commerce) boost also worths less because the techs are preferably researched in a certain date.
So I feel GAs are a little weak in RFCE, giving them anarchy free revolutions seems like a good solution to me

Perhaps something to counter anarchy? Like anarchy gives -3 permanent stability, a golden age could give +3 permanent stability.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Perhaps something to counter anarchy? Like anarchy gives -3 permanent stability, a golden age could give +3 permanent stability.

That's also sound nice, but we shouldn't have both permanent stability boost from GA, and no anarchy (thus no stability loss) under GA

3Miro, does every turn in anarchy gives -3 permanent stability (or number of cities / 3) for the player?

if ( pPlayer.isHuman() ):
     pPlayer.changeStabilityBase( iCathegoryCivics, max( -3, -iNumCities / 3 ) )