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Beta 3: Comments/Suggestions/Bugs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by Dale, Sep 5, 2007.

  1. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Chieftain

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    I am coming to the conclusion that, no matter how improved the AI is, it is no match strategy-wise for a human opponent. Sure, it can stockpile units and throw them at weak spots. And it can focus on certain historical goals. But that's about it.

    Here is my latest experience as Finland using historical mode. That's right, Finland. Finland's only opponent is Russia. First the Winter War: Almost took Murmansk after bracing for an attack that never came, but missed it by one turn because the diplomats intervened. No matter, USSR hadn't even bothered to attack other than to grab a wayward worker. Apparently too busy getting beaten up in Poland.

    Now it is mid-1942 and I have been at war with Russia for a year. Things are going well, despite my erroneously planning to also have to fight with Norway. I've taken all of USSR's northern cities including Leningrad and am now one march away from a lightly-defended Moscow. Also took Talinn and am bombarding Riga into submission. Russia has a huge stack in Riga, 10-15 ground units, on their border with Germany (they have apparently only squabbled over Konigsberg but not echanged cities otherwise), so I may not be able to take it for a while. But no matter, just to the east are several cities with only 2-3 ground units each.

    While Finland is on its way to superpower status, despite largely inferior weaponry (improved bombers are still just a dream on the drawing board, but am getting it done with standard-issue artillery/marines/tanks/paratroopers against superior Russian infantry and heavy tanks), the rest of the war can best be described as a stalemate. Low Countries and central Poland still remain independent, in 1942. Copenhagen and Oslo fell to Germany, Baltics fell to Russia, northern Africa is mostly in Italian hands, the Balkans are fighting amongst themselves. That is about it. No idea what Germany and France and Britain have been up to on the mainland, but apparently am not missing much.

    The AI seems to send only token counterattacks most of the time. 1-2 ground units, a couple of air sorties, token shore bombardment from a navy that has no ports to call home. Leave an injured unit unattended, and the AI pounces. It is also pretty good at pulling off the stealth amphibious assault, from the transport that has been floating around full of units probably since the beginning of the game and maybe since before the DoW -- units that might have been better utilized in nearby city defense. But the AI is not so good at moving ships out of port before a city is taken. The Russians keep throwing units away attacking the square north of Leningrad -- I have a fort there now and they are crossing a river against fortified units, so it has been a slaughter. But they do not attack Leningrad at all and I am cleaning up all of the cities to the east with little resistance.

    In an earlier game as USSR, I was able to take three cities from Finland during the short Winter War while also dealing with Poland in a timely manner. And this was no suicide run, knowing the diplomats would bail me out -- I tend not to throw units away, so I only took what I would be able to hold from a counterattack. So certainly Russia is strong enough to take it to the Finns if they plan accordingly.

    I think ultimately the bottom line is that, as wonderful as this scenario is, anything less than multiplayer isn't going to do it a whole lot of justice strategy-wise.
     
  2. Horizons

    Horizons King of the Ring

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    I'm agreed on that. Maybe if Firaxis had spent less money on making fancy graphics for Afterworld and hired more AI programmers, this scenario would have benefited. In my latest game as the Soviet Union, starting in 1936, Nazi Germany built up a huge force by 1939 but ignored all of Poland except Danzig and launched an amphibious assault on Inverness instead. :lol:
     
  3. nemt

    nemt Chieftain

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    That actually wouldn't have been a terrible idea, Horizons - wouldn't have given Britain and France casus belli to enter the war.

    Anyway, great work on beta 3.
     
  4. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Chieftain

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    Having tried the beta-3 now with several different countries, and having the AI make decisions to take the war directly to me for the most part, I think that that is a feature either of the AI or the scenario. The latest example though got me wondering whether a modified-third or new fourth 'mode' option is in order.

    Playing as France using historical mode, I advanced to 1941 with little incident. I decided to lay low and build up my defenses, letting UK/GE fight it out around Bremen (exchanging amphib invasions and naval pleasantries). However, Germany did throw 19 units away in an attack on the Maginot fortifications in just one turn -- the defenders weren't even scratched. Germany brought the war to my borders when they invaded the Low Countries, but it was easily handled. When Italy entered the war I was able to concentrate on their navy and eventually taking cities in northern Italy, before having enough units built up to work on the North African cities.

    But the critical choice-point came just before the hard-coded DoW between Germany and Russia. I had retaken the Low Countries without heavy resistance and was massing to move into Germany-proper. Italy was on the verge of collapse in NA, their navy was all but eliminated, and had already lost two mainland cities and one of their islands. Certainly we know from history that the decision to invade Russia was an unwise one, but in that case the Germans had already defeated France, Italy was still a viable ally, and there was no threat at all to the homeland from Norway, the Low Countries, or Poland. In the game in question, Germany had taken Oslo but was facing a large stack of Norwegian troops near occupied Copenhagen, Poland still held on to one city, and Italy was on the verge of collapse -- hardly a good time to attack the USSR.

    So, as a modification of the semi-random events mode or a new mode in itself, why not have the AI somehow assess the later DoWs based on the current war situation? Some factor where for Germany it sums up the number of objectives in-hand (e.g. from earlier DoWs such as Poland, LowCountries, etc.), number of original cities lost, and decides then whether to make a new DoW. Perhaps it should also assess military strength of current allies and current opponents, such as the historical decision to invade Russia being based on a 'defeated' UK after the Battle of Britain. There could be a random element to it also. The additionally-tricky thing would be Italy's DoW (does Germany need to be 'strong enough' to warrant Italy joining in?), whether the USA DoW is always automatic or could it be delayed by how the war is going, and whether the USSR would DoW on Germany if somehow enticed by the Allies? I know, I know, too many questions.

    Obviously this not an option for the true-historical mode, but something maybe to think about. This came to mind for me, knowing that the DoW with USSR was imminent, to bide my time a bit and watch as German troops were siphoned off to the new eastern front. I would need a slightly different overall strategy if I wasn't certain that Germany would DoW with USSR. But, unlike open-play, it preserves the historical alliances.
     
  5. obliterate

    obliterate Warrior Monk

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    When does Germany invade the West Balkans? It's the start of 1941 and still no DOW.

    Also, I think the AI invests too heavily in fighters. At the end of 1940 the only enemy I have left is British Canada of which I have a large stack over there conquering thier cities. I occupy all of England, Ireland, Norway, Low Countries, Denmark, Poland, Northern France, Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt and Libya I have enough forces on the border of West Balkans and Russia to be able to not create another unit in the game and still win. I've done all this and barely lost a unit. The maximum units defending cities is 4-5 but in every city there is 5+ fighters. When I invaded England I unleashed the entire luftwaffe angainst them but I lost 75% of my bombers. Every time I go on bombing raids I lose at least half of the planes. Because of this I have given up creating an airforce. The AI hardly ever build bomber either.

    Nevertheless, it's a great scenario.
     
  6. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Chieftain

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    Germany DoWs West Balkans sometime in spring of 1941, before the DoW with Russia in June.

    I routinely encounter stacks of 4 fighters in almost every enemy AI city I attack. If they are shooting down bombers, then that is what they are supposed to be doing. However, does every city need 4 interceptors? I would think that 2 would be enough, unless units are healing and/or the air assault is heavy. Shouldn't some of the excess fighters be attacking units or cities or improvements? I see some of this, but perhaps not enough. Perhaps it is also an issue of not always knowing what the AI is up to when it is fighting amongst itself while I am waiting for my turn. I can see what it tries to do against me, but don't necessarily know what it does against my allies or its other enemies. It would seem to be a waste of resources if there are unutilized air units when a couple of extra ground units in the same city might be more useful. I am always pleased to topple a city that has a bunch of air or naval units in it with only a couple of ground units for defense, even after 1-2 turns of bombardment they are usually still there.

    Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think this is a difficulty level issue. I have been playing on noble or prince, and feel that as the levels increase the AI has more units but doesn't necessarily use them any differently?
     
  7. nemt

    nemt Chieftain

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    Ioannis Metaxas Greece = democracy?
     
  8. Dazz_G

    Dazz_G Chieftain

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    I know Beta 3 was written for 3.03 and probably isn't fully compatible with 3.13 but I thought i'd post this anyway.

    Following updating to patch 3.13 , when I try to load any saves for Europe '36 (Hitler) , the game goes CTD.

    Also, if I try to launch a new game using Europe '36 (Hitler) there isn't any option whatsoever for playing Germany.
     
  9. mattse73

    mattse73 Chieftain

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    Same Problem with the pacific 36, after you try to load a saved game under 3.13 the game crashes ...

    Edit: clean installation, no mods, patch3.13
     
  10. wotan321

    wotan321 Chieftain

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    Same here, clean install of the new patch. Civ is 3.13, RtW is the current patch. I can load the scenario but saved games ctd.

    The app.log says: ERR: Error during inflate.
     
  11. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Load the patch for the release version. :)
     
  12. wotan321

    wotan321 Chieftain

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    Just to make sure I am clear on this....

    I am using BtS 313.
    The RtW version I am using is from the file RtW_AOP1_Full.exe from Oct. 7, 2007.

    I get a CTD whenever I try to load a saved game.

    Should I load an earlier version? Beta3? The one that came with the original BtS DVD?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  13. wotan321

    wotan321 Chieftain

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    I went back and re-installed 3.13, then re-installed RtW release 1, still getting a CTD.

    What is the zlib.dll file and does it factor in to the problem?
     
  14. Jaythekiller

    Jaythekiller Chieftain

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  15. wotan321

    wotan321 Chieftain

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    Thanks. I will check it out.

    Yep, that did the trick. Thanks. Its a patch 1.1 over at Apolyton.
     
  16. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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  17. descar

    descar Chieftain

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    Awsome Mod Dale btw. just a few things i noticed when playin with the lastest additions patch. Only from My USSR point of view doh.

    Im currently playin open 36' Europe, emperor difficulty with USSR. Been in war with Germany for most of the time since 38', with counties like GB, France, Finland, Sweden, East Balkan also Declaring war on me. so far, i have taken the MiddleEast up to italy, a Front to Germany through east Europe, and Skandinavia is mine.

    I see alot of flaws and things i cant seem to understand, like how "the low counties" can survive against France and Germany until 1942 and been in war for like 3 years... Doesnt the AI use it superior forces?? it seems like a stalemate. and Germany with superior Air and Tanks Forces, dont do much against my Infantry based army.

    ATM i got an Army Consiting of only 200 Advanced Infantry, 60+ Artillary, and 50+ Figthers, and thats it.. what about the other units you say? i just found no use for them...

    Land
    -I dont see the use for T34 Tanks (unlike the German one) cause of their Weak power of 25 and Slow Production , or the Heavy with 30str with its slow speed.. both needs a Boosts somehow, either to power or speed or something else.
    - Improved and Advanced Infantry for USSR makes tanks useless, especially the move of 3 on Advanced, making them the prefered Blitz unit. there's also no counter against Infantry. Infantry is the I-Win unit, with Artillery support.
    - Artillery is sweet :), One of the Best Unit in the Mod, without a Doubt.
    - AT Gun needs to be -alot- Cheaper to build, and perhaps needs a boost, like 125% against tanks, I never build one, i can get 2-3 infantry for its costs.
    - why use Tank Destroyers when Artillery does the Same Job with Collertal DMG and Bombarment as bonus. Artillery dont need bonus against Tanks, and if it does, only 25%

    Air :
    -All my Bombers dies after leaving the factory, want range bombardment? use figthers, they survive.
    -I havnt seen the AA gun doing anything yet. seems like figthers are superior to them also.

    Sea:
    Submarines needs to be able to take down Landing Crafts without having a 50-60% chance of dieing in the process.
    otherwise, the Sea war has turned alot more interesting with the improved Subs and Destoryers.

    Other :
    -Disable Upgrading if Possible, 20 gold to upgrade your Units is a bargain, and whole armies can be upgraded when you get a new tech, totaly unreal, turn it off. it ruins the feel that you should get when gettin a new superior unit with a new tech. since you dont need to build it, just upgrade your old for 20 gold.. insane... and can be a game winner/breaker.
    - Let us build old versions of some units, especially the tank. the t34 is superior to KV-1 because of its speed.. only reason to discover heavy tanks is because you need it for other techs.the heavy tanks have no role whatsoever.

    anyway, i'll see if i can try a USSR vs Germany with me and a buddy, would be a change vs the stuiped AI.
     

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