Beta Gauntlet VII

Excellent idea trying multiple victories. Too bad they don't have a cultural OCC.

When making the average win date, maybe you want to drop the lowest half. They can throw off a fair average. Example: someone submits a 2040AD conquest.

I want the formula to work, but I don't think it will. Conquest games are in the early BC range. I'm not sure the formula can balance that with a space race. Applause for you effort on this though. Let's see what happens.
 
WastinTime said:
Too bad they don't have a cultural OCC.
I haven't actually tried this yet, but I thought the requirements for cultural victory are different when OCC is checked so that it *is* possible. Has anyone out there actually done this?
 
Dianthus said:
I haven't actually tried this yet, but I thought the requirements for cultural victory are different when OCC is checked so that it *is* possible. Has anyone out there actually done this?

I'm pretty sure it's not 50,000 points. Maybe no one ever bothered to try, and this victory condition will trigger at 75,000 or 100,000. Can we get an answer from Firaxis?
 
I just finished a 1922 AD diplomatic, #1325. Not as good as you guys are, I'm sure, but its better than my 2038 AD in the last gauntlet. :)

It was fun all around, I had the UN in 1855ish but had to "convince" others to vote for me. Won the vote by the bare minimum 227 needed 227 gotten. 18 Civs, balanced map, seas = high (less land)
 
WastinTime said:
I'm pretty sure it's not 50,000 points. Maybe no one ever bothered to try, and this victory condition will trigger at 75,000 or 100,000. Can we get an answer from Firaxis?

I had legendary culture in my game at 25,000.. Its because the game speed was Quick.

Getting legendary culture for one city is easy.

Getting legendary culture for three cities is not so easy.

Getting legendary culture for one city, and two ally cities would be downright impressive. I will try to do that in the next game.
 
You cannot win a cultural victory with a single city, OCC or no. It has been tried. Hopefully this will change in a patch, but untill then Perm alliances are the only way to go. On that note, the AI is HORRIBLE at generating cluture. >.<
 
Tried a few more conquest games. The best so far is 1100 BC.
 
More bad news.
According to the high score table on Noble, conquest:

standard 3560 BC
small 1630 BC
Tiny 3480 BC
Duel 3780 BC

I assume Small map will get a ~3500 BC finish too. This means that Conquest will blow away any other victory condition unless the formula is changed.

This supports my idea of dropping the bottom half of the scores. Example:
If 10 of the 20 entries for conquest are ~3500BC, no one in this group deserves to win. If you average the top ten scores, they won't win because the average will be around 3400 BC. But if you average all entries (even the 1000 AD ones), Conquest wins easily and this gauntlet is over before it starts.

I assume they just turn on Barbarians and hope the civs all die.

Maybe if you forced Barbs OFF, and also consider Island maps or something to delay conquest a bit.
 
WastinTime said:
More bad news.
According to the high score table on Noble, conquest:

standard 3560 BC
small 1630 BC
Tiny 3480 BC
Duel 3780 BC

I assume Small map will get a ~3500 BC finish too. This means that Conquest will blow away any other victory condition unless the formula is changed.

Monty starts with scout, so no assoult of one neighbour right away. It takes two techs to get to BW and it is quick speed, so I estimate the best conquest time around 1500 BC
 
Trying to go for a domination victory.

I've tried two games so far and am not having much luck. The first game I didn't realize you had to check Permanent Alliances. The second game I've done everything in my power to get my "ally" to sign a PA and it just isn't working. He's (Mansa) always saying he doesn't need me. I've tried gifting his opponent (Hatty) tons of techs to give her an advantage, while at the same time using spies to sabotage his resources. And it still isn't working. Not for sure what I'm doing wrong.

:hmm: Maybe I'll try a setting that nerfs the AI's, see if that works.

Any suggestions from those of you who have used PA's before? This is my first time and I haven't found much info on it with the forum search.
 
the 3560bc finish on standard is due to a map-generation bug. seems like a few hours of fun regenerating on lakes is the way to go to win this gauntlet :P

regardkess, conquest does seem like the obvious vc to go for since it should by far require the smallest difference in turns compared to average.

*edit* conquest is annoying :P. i couldnt get bronze if my life depended on it, and waiting for ironworking to use the UU doesnt seem viable. i thought you were supposed to get bronze within four squares of your starting location on balanced, not four screens.
 
superslug said:
The #1 of that VC [in which there is only one submission] would obviously equal the VC average. It would automatically fail to beat any #1 from a VC that has more than one submission.

Oh, now this I have to rabidly disagree with.

Among any gauntlet settings, there are Easy Wins and there are Hard Wins. Conquest and Diplomatic are among the harder wins, with Domination and the Space Race being the easist.

On very specific gauntlet settings, some victory conditions are very, very hard to achieve, such as a Cultural or Domination victory with an OCC. They represent a supreme effort that, under this system, would be totally ignored as there is no one to measure it against. Bad idea, here.

Basically, this defines a system where attempting harder victories is actively discouraged -- more difficult conditions will attract fewer games, and fewer games means (generally speaking) a smaller finish-time-spread and thusly a closer average and a lower score.

It seems that the best way to win this gauntlet is to identify the victory type favored most by the lesser-skilled players (Montezuma OCC on a Small map? That'd be Conquest) and focus on that to exclusion of all else. This game type will have the most number of submissions, meaning the most sub-par games (on average). This maximizes the finish time spread, which in turn boosts your composite score.

Beating the tar out of players of lesser skill does not a good player make.

Of course, you could use the idea of dropping the lower 50% of the games... but that just adds another layer of complexity into a system that's already a bit awkward. I think a new scoring metric is needed here.

I'd favor a system where you just declare a multiplier to be applied to the ending turn number of each game for each victory type, then judge the winner by the result. You'd be just guessing to begin with, but you could refine the multipliers as time goes on. As it is, players are already very good at guessing the end dates of the best finishes.

Example*:

Domination Modifer = 10
Conquest Modifer = 7
Cultural Modifer = 1.5
Diplomatic Modifier = 1.3
Space Race Modifier = 1
Time = N/A

* very little thought put into these figures

And you'd judge the winner by picking the best time for each of the victory types, then applying the multipliers.

[ending turn number] * [modifier]

You could even play around with the modifiers based on singular map types. For instance, setting barbarians off reduces all modifiers by 20%. On archipelago, Domination is +10%. Special Bonus: Diplomatic vs Isabella, Alexander and Tokugawa, +40%. And so on. You can encourage any combination of settings to give each gauntlet its own flavor.

- Bill
 
I don't think the suggested scoring formula is good enough, since the final score depends on the average finish turn, and the earlier average finish has an advantage.

Suppose, we have 5 Conquest wins at turns 50 (1500BC), 57, 70, 82, and 90 (200AD). The average turn is 69.8, and the winner score is 50/69.8 = 0.72.

Now suppose, we have 5 Space Race wins at turns 150 (1675AD), 157, 170, 182, and 190 (1875AD). The average turn is 169.8, and the winner score is 150/169.8 = 0.83.

You see what I mean? An equally good game receives worse score just because the average turn is higher.

So, I would suggest a little different scoring formula, to get rid of this effect. Instead of comparing (dividing by) absolute turns, let's compare the deviates.

That is, we compute the average Ta and the standard deviation D from the average. Then take the difference between the best (lowest) winning turn Tw and the average, and divide that difference by the standard deviation, (Ta-Tw)/D.

In the above examples, the standard deviations are

sqrt( ((50-69.8)^2 + (57-69.8)^2 + (70-69.8)^2 + (82-69.8)^2 + (90-69.8)^2)/5 ) = 14.92
(identical in both cases)

The highest scores are (69.8-50)/14.92 = 1.33. (Unlike the original formula, in this case the higher the score, the better the game, wins the highest score.)

This way, I believe, we can get comparable scores for different Victory Conditions.
 
good post bill, even if i cant believe you gave diplomatic a smaller multiplier than cultural :P

if anything other than conquest wins this gauntlet i shall eat my nonexistant hat.

OOC conquest sucks!!! :P
 
Andrei makes a good point about standard deviations being a more accurate measure of most outstanding finish time.

Bah, we're focusing too hard on being declared the arbitraty "winner" of this guantlet. Its still beta, we're all learning about the game, etc. Go try some games, see what we can learn from them, and reflect on the scoring system after the guantlet ends.
 
Since this is an OCC, the earliest finish will not be nearly as zippy as the high scores on the table. I doubt it is possible to walk across a small map, let alone take everything, before 2000 BC if you're recruiting out of only one city.

Ronald, I assume you just went to IW and churned jags, correct?

cheers,

Marc
 
ohioastronomy said:
Ronald, I assume you just went to IW and churned jags, correct?
Marc

Yes, that's what I did.
Research: mining, BW, IW, wheel
Build: worker, barracks, worker, warrior, jags, jags, jags,.....
 
you do have a point, fluffy. although i love to compete, even if i dont win, i guess the best thing about these gauntlets is to see the different approach everyone takes. Im convinced this speeds up the learning process considerably and force you to find the flaws in your strategy if you want to be able to compete.

but im sure ill get over my initial disappointment and get going with the playing once some non conquest results are posted :). perm alliance thing seems fun to try, cultural seems impossible though, so i guess id have to go for domination win then.
 
Just finished another conquest victory.
Same strategy as mentioned above, my opponents were closer this time.
Finishing date: 1600 BC
 
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