Beta UHV discussion

[Issos]

1. Control Sweden, Finland and two Baltic cities in 1600AD
2. Control the Baltic Sea by 1650AD
3. Conquer Moscow and Warsaw by 1700AD

I would replace 2nd (it's too unclear for me) with that:

"have a unit with 50 (or whatever) experience" to represent an elite army

It seems to be quite original too

Also, Warsaw is rarely ever founded in game. Mb something like "don't allow any Russian/Polish ports by baltic sea in 1700"?

 

[Cetrix]

A UVH with one or more experienced unit is quite fun I agree, and what about a UVH to have the most modern army of the world ? With a condition of having at least XX units.

 

[Wessel V1]

The experienced unit is cool, players can choose whether they decide to reload or not when they lose their most experienced unit. Warschau is not often founded, because Poznan is now the Polish capitol. The area however needs some work however, since there is a general lack of food in Germany and Poland, except for the Rostock area. It's very clear with globe view: zoom out as far as possible and toggle show resources on. Then compare the results with for example Spain, Italy England and the Balkans. France is not so dense too, but the base land is much better.

 

[Jusos2108]

The experienced unit is cool, players can choose whether they decide to reload or not when they lose their most experienced unit. Warschau is not often founded, because Poznan is now the Polish capitol. The area however needs some work however, since there is a general lack of food in Germany and Poland, except for the Rostock area. It's very clear with globe view: zoom out as far as possible and toggle show resources on. Then compare the results with for example Spain, Italy England and the Balkans. France is not so dense too, but the base land is much better.

Sorry I meant Poznan. The experienced unit thing might be cool, but then again it would be easy and probably hard to code.

The lack of food is a serious problem around there. They went too far, when the food resources were taken away from Poland. I actually took a screenie of Poland, since it was so crappy. (The map is fresh too) And I know this is the wrong thread.

 

[sedna17]

I think the food is okay in Poland and Germany -- though I did add one food resource for Poznan since it is now the capitol.

I'm more interested in bringing the rest of the map down to a similar level.

Look, virtually all this land is grassland with rivers. That's an abundance of food by itself! In a real BTS game you'd cottage it all, and the cities would still grow into huge sprawling behemoths.

Medieval Europe should be small cities and a lot of farmland. You don't need or want to build farms if you have big food resources. By limiting early health I want to make it more difficult to grow mega cities.

 

[Jusos2108]

Well, you are right that medieval cities were smaller, but on the other hand most of the people lived outside the cities. How is that presented in civ? I don't consider the population of a city to represent only the people that live in the city, rather the people who are influenced by the regions biggest city. These people, inside the BFC, are farmers that work on their fields and sell their food to the city and there are also smaller villages and towns that are greatly influenced by the city. Therefore, big cities only mean that there lot of people living under the influence of this city.

So having big cities in RFCE is only realistic.

EDIT: if the population count bothers you just edit the indicators. Also having small cities only makes the AI turtle up even more.

 

[sedna17]

To reply to the Swedish ideas:

Losing no more than XX% of battles is possibly slow to code (need to have a python call after every battle) and I think hard for a player to track (this isn't recorded anywhere on the info screen is it?)

I like the idea that one of the goals be experience-related. Here are the python functions I can see which would be easy to call for actually coding this UHV:

getGreatGeneralsCreated
getHighestUnitLevel
getCombatExperience ()
int () - Combat experience used to produce Warlords

So, we could certainly require that you have a unit of at least level X (this is promotion level like for Heroic Epic/West Point). Could be fun. Nice to force people to attach great generals to (at least one) units.

What would be appropriate? I think the levels go like 2, 5, 10, 17, 26, 37, 50. Level 5 (26 exp) is easy (a single great general is worth 20 points). Level 6 is harder... can you give experience to a great-general-attached unit with another one? If not, they you need to get a unit to 17 experience "naturally" and get a great general. If you can use multiple great generals on one unit the calculation changes and Level 7 might be do-able. Anyone know what the answer is?

The other option is to just go for "spawn Y Great Generals". But... this is probably dull in comparison.

 

[LuKo]

Still, population was really small back then. Is it possible to make 1pop=2unhealthiness?

 

[Jusos2108]

Yes, you can first attach one GG (+20exp) to the unit and then you can stack it with another unit and attach the GG to the other unit, which then gives half of the experience (+10) to the first GG unit. Of course this can be done indefinetly. So getting a 50exp unit would be quite easy with three GGs. (starting exp+20exp+10exp+10exp+win 3-5 battles)

EDIT: Of course the tactic would be that those battles should won before attaching the GGs. So when you get a veteran Karolin with 20exp, which is easy, you only have attach one and a half GGs into to get the 50exp unit and keep it safe.

 

[sedna17]

On population:

I agree with LuKo. Whatever you think the population represents, and however you scale the size of cities into "real" units, to be at all accurate it needs to be low for quite some time and then get much larger toward the end of our mod. Strangely, I don't think there is an easy (XML) way to increase the health penalty for each population.

On GG:

Okay, good to know about the sharing of experience. So I think someone should play and see if 50 (level 7) is good. 65 (the next level) would require 4 great generals or a base guy with 25 experience.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

On population:

I agree with LuKo. Whatever you think the population represents, and however you scale the size of cities into "real" units, to be at all accurate it needs to be low for quite some time and then get much larger toward the end of our mod. Strangely, I don't think there is an easy (XML) way to increase the health penalty for each population.

Two points on population.

First, the population of Europe at around 1300 and around 1500 was the nearly the same. It was in the middle that it dropped (due to the bubonic plague). So really it would be more like a slow incline with a steep drop for about 100 years, followed by a somewhat steeper incline.

Second, there are two ways I see to simulate the slow increase over time. You could either start out with higher health penalties and then create more health-related city improvements that are unlocked through technology or you could just attach food-related improvements to technology change unrelated to special resources. For example, at the beginning a farm gives you +1 food. Around 700 AD you research something that gives it +2 and all other improvements +1. Around 1000 AD you research something that gives it +3 and all other +1. Around 1300 AD you research something that gives it +4 and all others +2. Around 1600 AD you research something that makes it +5. This would probably screw up a lot of the game mechanics the way they are now, but it would do a much better job simulating the huge difference in urbanization at 700 AD and 1500 AD which is currently not reflected in the mod.

 

[LuKo]

I agree with LuKo. Whatever you think the population represents, and however you scale the size of cities into "real" units, to be at all accurate it needs to be low for quite some time and then get much larger toward the end of our mod. Strangely, I don't think there is an easy (XML) way to increase the health penalty for each population.

Isn't there any easy (as for Python) way to do that?

Second, there are two ways I see to simulate the slow increase over time. You could either start out with higher health penalties and then create more health-related city improvements that are unlocked through technology or you could just attach food-related improvements to technology change unrelated to special resources. For example, at the beginning a farm gives you +1 food. Around 700 AD you research something that gives it +2 and all other improvements +1. Around 1000 AD you research something that gives it +3 and all other +1. Around 1300 AD you research something that gives it +4 and all others +2. Around 1600 AD you research something that makes it +5. This would probably screw up a lot of the game mechanics the way they are now, but it would do a much better job simulating the huge difference in urbanization at 700 AD and 1500 AD which is currently not reflected in the mod.

Second option would definitely need to increase amount of food "eaten" per citizen.

 

[merijn_v1]

For the XP UHV for Sweden you still need to get those GGs. You get about 2 or 3 XP for each battle won. I don't know for sure, but for the first general you need about 50 XP (or even more, I never checked it). The amount of XP needed for each GG grows everytime you get one. So to get that amount of GGs to attach to a unit, you'll need to have about 200 XP. (or more, still not sure). That means you still need a lot of battles won to get them. This gives you the choice, win a lot of battles to get GG points to attach to 1 unit, or win those battles with that single units and also get that unit to 50XP. The last one will be the easiest. (or cheat and give yourself some GGs with the WB)

 

[Barratt_87]

Hey, this is my first post but I've been following RFC europe and play testing for some time now but never bothered to post till now. I just want to throw out there that the charlemange UHV for france is a really good idea and really puts their UP to good use early in the game..

 

[Steb]

Let me share my thoughts about Córdoba:

Since the actual Caliphate of Córdoba lasted from 756 to 1031 and was the golden age of Muslim presence in Europe (later desintegrating into taifas and becoming part of other empires), I think Córdoba qualifies as one of those civs that should concentrate on winning quickly rather than trying to build a long lasting empire. As such, I would like to see the last UHV, Control 4 cities in Iberia and 4 cities in NW Africa in 1490, changed, especially since it is so easy.

I suggest: Control Iberia and Southern France in 900. This means that the player will have to take military action quickly to conquer independant Pamplona, Barcelona, Toulouse, Burdigala and Marseille. 900 is right before Spain's spawn, therefore there is no need for a conflict with them (there will inevitably be war after anyway). This is historical, as the Muslims quickly took hold of the Iberian Peninsula (except the NW, but there aren't any independants there anyway) and parts of France, although the UHV would require to win battles that were lost by the actual Andalusians (Charles Martel...).

I tried to achieve this and I am positive it is quite possible. It requires early military focus and the hiring of mercenaries, but at the same time making sure the capital grows to be the largest city. Although by lack of ambition I stopped at Toulouse, I was still far from 900 and could probably have taken Burdigala and Marseille had I wanted to. However, my economy was in ruins and I needed to prepare for the arrival of León (and did not want to risk a war with the Franks or the Burgundians). I believe it would be a great challenge, far greater than just sitting there with no real goal except growing a city.

The other 2 UHV are okay, although building the wonders is perhaps too easy.

 

[sedna17]

Hey, this is my first post but I've been following RFC europe and play testing for some time now but never bothered to post till now. I just want to throw out there that the charlemange UHV for france is a really good idea and really puts their UP to good use early in the game..

Welcome to the boards. Glad you like the Charlemange UHV idea for France.

 

[AdrienIer]

You all agree on changing the Colonial projects UHV's, but they were very important in the late eras for the colonial powers. I agree that now they are too easy and boring, but this could be corrected if the UHV was more specific on which project should be built, just like it is generally specific on which wonders should be built. For example, France could have "build Louisiana, Quebec, an Indian trading post, Indochina, Madagascar and Ivory coast" as a UHV. Some could also overlap each other like England and France going for the Hudson bay or India. This would make it more challenging, just like building wonders.

 

[thwump]

just tried out a charlemagne's empire game. Didn't have too much trouble, the most annoying thing was having to make settlers to take the german lands since you can conquer for the rest. Very little time to do anything but make units. I had all the barb/independent cities in france, barcelona, and milan. Built 2 cities inland towards germany (not sure exactly where they were but it all depends on how the box is drawn in the end) and amsterdam. I think amserdam was a mistake.

The tough thing will be dealing with the aftermath. Burgundy spawns; I had dijon and it looked like the best bet was just to let it flip. Can conquer them in the future sometime if you need to control france again. Viking raiders start to how up and they're pretty tough. Was just starting to get crossbows going which helps but they can still pillage.

Haven't continued to play but with germany spawning in less than 100 years its definitely looking tough to survive.

 

[sedna17]

You all agree on changing the Colonial projects UHV's...

Do we? For a while they were too easy because the AI wasn't building colonies properly. I confess I haven't played trying to get colonies as one of the "big" colonizers, so it might be too easy, we'll have to see.

I agree with your suggestion in principle though -- we could make things harder by requiring specific colonies.

 

[Wessel V1]

I must say that the colonizers were doing a pretty good job, also corporations are used by the AI. I'm playing as Kiev (normally not such a weak civ) and even Germany is building colonies. This is Alpha 12, Germany survived because I used a scouting Horse Archer to defend Frankfurt.