Beta UHV discussion
- Thread starter sedna17
- Start date
Cetrix
Merovingian
Lol, that's fun =)
I guess that "???" is to conquer the world ! True evil Pope.
I guess that "???" is to conquer the world ! True evil Pope.
AbsintheRed
Deity
This also sounds very nice
If you are changing the French UHV, you should also implement something like this in the next version
fdgsgds
Mustard Enthusiast
LMAO at The Pope's UHV condition:
Step 1 : Smite the Infidels
Step 2 : ???
Step 3 : Prophet (Profit!!)
How did you do that?? We should make it so that you can play the Papal States for a change. In the normal game, I think they should be stronger, have more cities, often be vassalized by Byzantium/Germany/Spain/France. It would also be nice if you could declare war and take over Rome. I don't understand why you can't (athough, there would be a problem with Crusades and whatnot).
I took a stab at some early Cordoba conquering as was mentioned in a post above. I was able to take all the independent/barb cities in iberia and southern france (barcelona, pamplona, toulouse, marseille, bordeaux) by 900. I got the last one on exactly that turn.
I actually didn't feel like I needed mercenaries although that would have sped things up probably. My economy was also doing fine; I just had to drop to about 30% research. And since Spain isn't very aggressive (like the other AIs) I only needed a couple of cavalry to defeat the lancer they wanted to run around in my borders.
During this time Cordoba did nothing but work food tiles and build things to help get a larger population (I hit 15 pop right at 1000). Also managed to get the wonders UHV by 1110.
So I think its a good idea to have some sort of fast conquer game for cordoba. In general its something this mod needs as way too many of the civs UHVs are long, slow affairs.
I actually didn't feel like I needed mercenaries although that would have sped things up probably. My economy was also doing fine; I just had to drop to about 30% research. And since Spain isn't very aggressive (like the other AIs) I only needed a couple of cavalry to defeat the lancer they wanted to run around in my borders.
During this time Cordoba did nothing but work food tiles and build things to help get a larger population (I hit 15 pop right at 1000). Also managed to get the wonders UHV by 1110.
So I think its a good idea to have some sort of fast conquer game for cordoba. In general its something this mod needs as way too many of the civs UHVs are long, slow affairs.
I tried a couple games last night as Venice trying to get ideas for what can be done for their UHVs. Right now its really, really easy. The redeeming factor is you don't have to wait for the dates listed since they count as soon as you complete them.
One game I tried to win as fast as possible. I got the 8 luxury resources condition in 1017. Besides tech trading the only things I researched were blast furnace and plate armor to be able to chop woods. That left lots of gold for mercenaries. I basically produced nothing but units, boats, workers, and settlers.
I'm a little confused, though, about how the luxuries works. In the other game I played I got credit for it when I thought I only had 6 different ones. Can anyone explain this?
For the current UHVs, I think conquering Rhodes is just way too simple. Its usually a poorly fortified independent city. No problem building a couple units or hiring a couple mercenaries and taking it at almost any point. I'm not sure I've ever seen another civ take it. It wouldn't be too much to just merge this with the other control UHV.
One idea with a little more ambition would be to require the capture of Constantinople. This could be done by buying a crusade, but its also not too difficult to make an invasion force on your own.
It might also be nice to have a little more tension between genoa and venice. I would suggest something like 'allow no genoan cities east of Italy' or something but I don't think AI genoa does that very often anyway.
If the luxury focused condition is to be kept, I think it could be increased above 8 without raising the difficulty too much. If you found Durazzo and complete the other conditions you already have wine, sheep, silver, olives, and dye. Its not too difficult to add on honey, ivory, incense, whale, and gold. That's 10 already without even having to conquer anything but independents and without leaving the Med.
Anyway, this is getting long but I just wanted to bring up a few points. The main problem is that Venice's UHV is just way too easy and in the end sort of boring. It should be possible to add difficulty and make it more interesting without taking away too much of the flavor of the Civ.
One game I tried to win as fast as possible. I got the 8 luxury resources condition in 1017. Besides tech trading the only things I researched were blast furnace and plate armor to be able to chop woods. That left lots of gold for mercenaries. I basically produced nothing but units, boats, workers, and settlers.
I'm a little confused, though, about how the luxuries works. In the other game I played I got credit for it when I thought I only had 6 different ones. Can anyone explain this?
For the current UHVs, I think conquering Rhodes is just way too simple. Its usually a poorly fortified independent city. No problem building a couple units or hiring a couple mercenaries and taking it at almost any point. I'm not sure I've ever seen another civ take it. It wouldn't be too much to just merge this with the other control UHV.
One idea with a little more ambition would be to require the capture of Constantinople. This could be done by buying a crusade, but its also not too difficult to make an invasion force on your own.
It might also be nice to have a little more tension between genoa and venice. I would suggest something like 'allow no genoan cities east of Italy' or something but I don't think AI genoa does that very often anyway.
If the luxury focused condition is to be kept, I think it could be increased above 8 without raising the difficulty too much. If you found Durazzo and complete the other conditions you already have wine, sheep, silver, olives, and dye. Its not too difficult to add on honey, ivory, incense, whale, and gold. That's 10 already without even having to conquer anything but independents and without leaving the Med.
Anyway, this is getting long but I just wanted to bring up a few points. The main problem is that Venice's UHV is just way too easy and in the end sort of boring. It should be possible to add difficulty and make it more interesting without taking away too much of the flavor of the Civ.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Constantinople is a hard question (whether it will be useful for the overall gameplay or not), but maybe it will help the Ottomans to capture it eventually. So I'm not sure of that yet
Besides that I agree on every points you made on the venezian UHVs
I hope we can convince everyone else to make changes both for them and for the Cordobans ,)
Besides that I agree on every points you made on the venezian UHVs
I hope we can convince everyone else to make changes both for them and for the Cordobans ,)
wolfigor
Emperor
Yes, and it's also one of the few that the AI can actually win.
I remember some discussions on this topic, but no conclusion.
Good idea to take it up again.
Did you get anything via trade or Marco Polo embassy (2 silk)?
This would be interesting and historically accurate.
It will also help the Ottomans to conquer Constantinople (they rarely do it if the town is not weakened by crusades/plague).
It will be nice but complicated to archive, especially because Genoa never venture east of Italy (to Malta only).
It will be great for both Genoa and Venice to have some kind of early colonial projects, something to represent early commerce with India and far East (.e.g silk road).
This may need to create a new type of special resources similar to Atlantic Access for them.
Having a very few of them in the Black Sea (Crimea), near Constantinople, in Lebanon, near Alexandria.
One of the UHV for both Genoa and Venice would be then to control ALL of them (directly or by trade).
This could be enough, even if I would prefer that you'll have the build colonial projects for which such resources are a condition.
[ideally I would like to see 2 colonial projects, one for a north route (needing the resources in Constantinople+Crimea ) and one for a south route (needing the resources in Lebanon and Alexandria).
This may push competition between Genoa and Venice and reproduce the development of their territory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_Republics).
It will also force the player to acquire territories in difficult and far locations, control them all at the same time, and keep them long enough to build those projects.
It will also force the maritime republics to try to control Constantinople and very likely to have a conflict with the Arabs or the Ottoman (or somehow convince them to trade those special resources).
On the negative side, this solution will mean to: add one new resource type, add two new colonial projects, update civilopedia, update map, update settler map, update war map
Not complicated work but lot of it.
I also found the old discussion (blizzrd, jessiecat, and I):
The three main posts:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8767229&postcount=2658
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8767289&postcount=2659
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8767313&postcount=2660
the last post, from blizzrd, identify a much more challenging and still historical UHV set.
It does not require to much work to implement (only changes to victory.py and probably war map for Venice)
AbsintheRed
Deity
Yep, I checked the previous conversation too, and for me something along these lines sounds best:
1. UHV: need to control more territory - either by having more cities in the current UHV areas, or adding new UHV areas (Constantinople, Crimea) in 1280 AD - a few turns before the Ottoman spawn
2. UHV: acquire all luxury resources on the map (directly or by trade) in 1500 AD - note that the resources from the colonial projects are not neccessary
3. UHV: Control northern Italy by 1700 AD (vassalize or conquer) - Milan, Genoa and Firenze area
1. UHV: need to control more territory - either by having more cities in the current UHV areas, or adding new UHV areas (Constantinople, Crimea) in 1280 AD - a few turns before the Ottoman spawn
2. UHV: acquire all luxury resources on the map (directly or by trade) in 1500 AD - note that the resources from the colonial projects are not neccessary
3. UHV: Control northern Italy by 1700 AD (vassalize or conquer) - Milan, Genoa and Firenze area
wolfigor
Emperor
I proposed new resources and new colonial projects to make the challenge more interesting: it will force both territorial expansion as well as using production for a project.
It will also make territorial expansion justified by commerce and not by forced expansion itself... but I see that just forcing to conquer some areas is much easier to implement.
Venice UHVs should end in 15th century, when it started to decline. UHVs that end around 1700AD don't suit Venice at all.
Nearly all of the current UHVs take very long to achieve, so this mods needs some civs that can fulfill their UHVs quickly, like in regular RFC, just like Sedna said in the first post of this thread.
Therefore, this my suggestion, though IMO the timescale is still a bit long:
Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Crimea and conquer Rhodes by 1350AD
2. Capture Constantinople and hold it for 60 years between 1200 and 1350AD
3. Control one of every luxury resource/or unite Italy under your rule (excluding Rome) by 1450AD *
Nearly all of the current UHVs take very long to achieve, so this mods needs some civs that can fulfill their UHVs quickly, like in regular RFC, just like Sedna said in the first post of this thread.
Therefore, this my suggestion, though IMO the timescale is still a bit long:
Venetia (800AD)
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Crimea and conquer Rhodes by 1350AD
2. Capture Constantinople and hold it for 60 years between 1200 and 1350AD
3. Control one of every luxury resource/or unite Italy under your rule (excluding Rome) by 1450AD *
I can expand about the question how luxury resources work. I think I kept a save I can check when I'm at home sometime. But what I remember is that I had 6 resources in the third(luxury) column on my capital city screen. I don't think I had honey but I thought I had sheep when I conquered jerusalem after being voted to a crusade. That city wasn't yet hooked up to trade network since it was inland and surrounded by arabia. Does it count resources controlled in all cities combined? Its possible I didn't have sheep either and just forgot.
Having one of every luxury on the map would be interesting to test. Is coffee a luxury? That one might be a pain. There's also that random spice way down in africa in the SW corner of the map. Its definitely a better idea than just 8, though.
Having one of every luxury on the map would be interesting to test. Is coffee a luxury? That one might be a pain. There's also that random spice way down in africa in the SW corner of the map. Its definitely a better idea than just 8, though.
1450?! I even think the current 1500+ is a bit too early. Historically, 1450 isnt even enough for Venice to fight the Battle of Lepanto, or go through the Renaissance. In truth Venice's decline only truly began in 1714.
I understand some civs need early UHVs, but Venice should really not be one of those.
I think its fine if the UHV focuses on the expansion of Venetian power and not the latter wars with Ottomans and such. The sack of Constantinople was, what, 1206? That was around the same period when they had many islands and cities that you'll be using for the UHV ( ragusa, durazzo, crete). Yeah they didn't have cyprus then, but I for one don't mind pushing up the date for that if it improves gameplay (you can think of it as the part of the UHV that's *better* than what the civ did historically).
Lepanto is a famous battle, but it came at a time when Venice was starting to lose territory. And I think it's ok to end before the Renaissance is in full swing. Every civ has many facets to it, and you have to pick and choose which to highlight with the UHV. In my opinion, highlighting the expansion of Venetian power before the Renaissance will make for more interesting gameplay.
I think the vast majority of the current UHVs are designed with too long a timeframe in mind. Its good to have some like that ( I think the Byzantines with their struggle to survive and remain powerful under constant attack is a good example), but most need to be made quicker. Especially when you can usually fulfill the requirements hundreds of years in advance and you end up just sitting around or randomly conquering to pass the time.
Lepanto is a famous battle, but it came at a time when Venice was starting to lose territory. And I think it's ok to end before the Renaissance is in full swing. Every civ has many facets to it, and you have to pick and choose which to highlight with the UHV. In my opinion, highlighting the expansion of Venetian power before the Renaissance will make for more interesting gameplay.
I think the vast majority of the current UHVs are designed with too long a timeframe in mind. Its good to have some like that ( I think the Byzantines with their struggle to survive and remain powerful under constant attack is a good example), but most need to be made quicker. Especially when you can usually fulfill the requirements hundreds of years in advance and you end up just sitting around or randomly conquering to pass the time.
wolfigor
Emperor
In first lets remember that UHV have 2 historical conditions (target archived in real history) and one never archived historically but part of the historical mindset/condition.
This is almost a divine decree from his lordship Rjye.
Anyway this means that the control of certain territories for Venice should be set in its real time-line:
About the controlling territory in Italy, Venice position was (mostly) defensive.
Venice needed a secure hinterland for food and wood, and their aspiration never been to wide.
There have been plenty of wars with Milan, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, and Papal states, but never in its history Venice did think about unifying Italy, it was completely beyond the scope of the mindset at the time.
However we can say the target of Venice was to defeat her neighbors to ensure prosperity (especially against Genoa).
In conclusion I still consider blizzrd suggestion the most "appropriate":
This is almost a divine decree from his lordship Rjye.
Anyway this means that the control of certain territories for Venice should be set in its real time-line:
Spoiler :
About the controlling territory in Italy, Venice position was (mostly) defensive.
Venice needed a secure hinterland for food and wood, and their aspiration never been to wide.
There have been plenty of wars with Milan, Genoa, Florence, Pisa, and Papal states, but never in its history Venice did think about unifying Italy, it was completely beyond the scope of the mindset at the time.
However we can say the target of Venice was to defeat her neighbors to ensure prosperity (especially against Genoa).
In conclusion I still consider blizzrd suggestion the most "appropriate":
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I suggest this UHV for Venice:
Have x (about 8) Mediterannean coastal cities in y AD. Including 1 city on Creta and Cyprus. (maybe also Constantinople.) This gives more freedom to build your cities. (you're even allowed to build those cities in Spain) It also is a little restiction, because Beograd etc. don't count. (Maybe the Medeterannean part is to much, so the Island in the west count too, although they aren't very usefull)
If you compare this with the things to keep in mind on the first post, it is:
- Historical. The Venetians did have many cities at the coast. The cities that aren't historical, can count as alternative ones. Than you'll have the part of UHVs that aren't completely historical, but plausible in it to.
- Difficulty. The number of cities isn't a problem. Neither that you are restricted to the Mediterannean. But conquering Constantinople can be very though. So it has both easy and difficult parts in it.
- Variety.
- Time pressure. (If you need to build those cities in a very short period)
- Sinc with UP/UB/UU. All unique features of Venice are dealing with trade. This UHV is no exception.
EDIT:
For the 2nd UHVs I think a X Gold in Y AD or richest of all civs is good.
or
Something with luxury resources.
For the 3rd UHV:
I don't know if this is fun to play, doable, codeable etc. , but I think have most Trade Routes of all civs can be very interresting. Certainly, it is an unique one.
Have x (about 8) Mediterannean coastal cities in y AD. Including 1 city on Creta and Cyprus. (maybe also Constantinople.) This gives more freedom to build your cities. (you're even allowed to build those cities in Spain) It also is a little restiction, because Beograd etc. don't count. (Maybe the Medeterannean part is to much, so the Island in the west count too, although they aren't very usefull)
If you compare this with the things to keep in mind on the first post, it is:
- Historical. The Venetians did have many cities at the coast. The cities that aren't historical, can count as alternative ones. Than you'll have the part of UHVs that aren't completely historical, but plausible in it to.
- Difficulty. The number of cities isn't a problem. Neither that you are restricted to the Mediterannean. But conquering Constantinople can be very though. So it has both easy and difficult parts in it.
- Variety.
- Time pressure. (If you need to build those cities in a very short period)
- Sinc with UP/UB/UU. All unique features of Venice are dealing with trade. This UHV is no exception.
EDIT:
For the 2nd UHVs I think a X Gold in Y AD or richest of all civs is good.
or
Something with luxury resources.
For the 3rd UHV:
I don't know if this is fun to play, doable, codeable etc. , but I think have most Trade Routes of all civs can be very interresting. Certainly, it is an unique one.
wolfigor
Emperor
The main problem for this is that the human player has no way to know how well or bad is progressing.
Af far as I know there is no way to know how many trade routes other civs have.
You also have limited influence on creating trade routes (mostly open borders, civics, and number of towns)
micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
Fix: Have 8 cities in Eastern Mediterranean in y AD, 1200<y<1400, including Constantinople.
merijn_v1
Black Belt
I said Mediterrannean on purpose so you have more freedom. It is the same as the UHV for Portugal that it has to settle on 5 different landmasses. (not very historical, but I has something historical in it) This makes it an alternative UHV. If you only allow it to the eastern Mediterannean, we only get completely historical UHV. (I think some Civs need an UHV what they never reached. An UHV that some civs tried to get but failed. Something they could have reached, if they made some other dicisions.)
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