os79
Deity
I believe they are in AND 1.74 alpha, found in Beta Thread. It is stickied in this forum
.
Better RoM: Improvement Balancing
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
I believe they are in AND 1.74 alpha, found in Beta Thread. It is stickied in this forum
.Lord Brooks
Big Noob
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2009
- Messages
- 83
I believe they are in AND 1.74 alpha, found in Beta Thread. It is stickied in this forum
Thanks.
Afforess
The White Wizard
The Alpha has been taken down, due to some bad bugs and CTD's, but I expect an alpha 2 this weekend.
phunny_pharmer
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2002
- Messages
- 31
Afforess, been lurking a fair bit and playing some of the 1.74 betas. Given the fact that i have a thesis proposal coming up, it's probably best that I refrain from modding the code. However, given the discussion I saw in the beta thread, I couldn't resist posting. Skip to the end if you're the type that sees a ten-paragraph post and thinks TL;DR.
I have a suggestion for you which may help with balancing improvements. I really, really like the idea of dedicated specialists from cottages. I think it's a cool concept a la colonization, and it has a lot of potential to break up the monotony of cottage-cottage-cottage. I've seen the math in the beta thread, and done my own, so I know that cottages still win out even if the specialists are taken away.
(I suggest people read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=344528&page=157 for background, if you're interested in the cottage vs farm/industry/commerce debate. Basically, to quote fourth grade, cottages rule everything else drools.)
In my mind, the biggest problem with the cottage line isn't the added production, it's the free specialist to boot. That's what really makes cottages cool. But what if we add _specific_ specialists to other maxed-out improvements in such a way that rivaled the cottage? Meaning, what would happen if certain types of improvements gave a large number of tailored specialists?
For instance, what if each improvement at the end of the industry chain gave +1 free engineer specialist (and only engineer specialists), regardless of the number of engineer specialists your buildings allow you to have? Maybe even boost this to +1.5 engineer specialists per improvement, if you allow fractional GP from tiles? That's a HUGE bonus, considering how hard it tends to be to get engineers in a polluted GP pool. Seven or so of these industry improvements, in an area surrounded by farms, means that you might have a legitimate shot at creating your own mini-GP farm for engineers.
Similarly, what if each improvement at the end of the trade chain were to give +1 or +1.5 free merchants or citizens (and only merchants or citizens)? Citizens are underused anyway -- though they might be a useful way of eking out more production from the improvement in a pinch. This city, however, should be so commerce specialized that the major focus should be on getting as many of those merchants up and running as possible.
On the other hand, what if each town were to give +1 GP, but it could only be a citizen or scientist? Note that this is a lower number, since in my mined scientists are overpowered vis a vis other specialists (with the exception of engineers, but it's really rare that you get too many engineers). You can still turn the specialist into a citizen if the production is absolutely necessary, but the focus of the town improvement should be on improving science in the city.
The idea is to force a specialization of the GP pool (and by extension, focus city commerce and production) into a particular specialty based on the surrounding improvements. You're building your industrial heartland? Great! You'd expect that this would lead to the emergence of engineers. You're building your massive commerce area? Yup, you'd expect your great people from there to be merchants. And so on and so forth.
In this situation, your improvements help to focus your cities as much as any building do. Yes, it may still be mathematically possible to create an industrial heartland using cottages...but you'll miss out on those engineers and great engineers. If you're not building the science buildings to take advantage of the scientists. Sure, you could use those citizens, but is that really (really?) what you wanted to do? This would encourage us to think strategically about the improvements around their cities in much the way we now have to consider which buildings to put in them.
This approach would have a couple of additional advantages
-- Great people would be generated much more rapidly in the late game. It might even become worthwhile to burn them on techs again.
-- Great people will spawn in appropriate areas. If your civ is going to produce a great merchant, it makes sense that it should spawn in a trade-heavy area. Ditto for GEs and production, and GS and high-density areas where universities would be located.
-- Even though great people would be generated more rapidly, it would not be possible to have massive numbers of golden ages. Since you need great people of multiple types to spawn GAs, you're going to need to generate other types of great people (say spies and priests) too. Good luck with that....
-- The production value of industry and commerce improvements has been increased. It may be necessary to decrease such values to compensate for the value of the specialist.
-- It may be worthwhile to require a building that gives the specialist. This would allow one to jack up the maintenance cost of the city. It would also make it less worth while to build a single industry in a city that otherwise is commerce based; it wouldn't be worth the maintenance to keep the industry-specific building around to get the specialists.
Ok, for the TL;DR crowd.
+ give specific specialists to more improvements
+ industry now gives engineers, and allow you to specialize land for industry
+ trade centers now give merchants or citizens, and allow you to specialize land for income
+ cottages now give scientists or citizens, and allow you to specialize land for science
+ while cities with the "wrong" type of improvement can still produce production/income/science, they will do so less efficiently and may pollute the GP pool
(Note: I'm resurrecting a thread that is now quite old. If you prefer that I start a new topic, tell a moderator to move this post)
I have a suggestion for you which may help with balancing improvements. I really, really like the idea of dedicated specialists from cottages. I think it's a cool concept a la colonization, and it has a lot of potential to break up the monotony of cottage-cottage-cottage. I've seen the math in the beta thread, and done my own, so I know that cottages still win out even if the specialists are taken away.
(I suggest people read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=344528&page=157 for background, if you're interested in the cottage vs farm/industry/commerce debate. Basically, to quote fourth grade, cottages rule everything else drools.)
In my mind, the biggest problem with the cottage line isn't the added production, it's the free specialist to boot. That's what really makes cottages cool. But what if we add _specific_ specialists to other maxed-out improvements in such a way that rivaled the cottage? Meaning, what would happen if certain types of improvements gave a large number of tailored specialists?
For instance, what if each improvement at the end of the industry chain gave +1 free engineer specialist (and only engineer specialists), regardless of the number of engineer specialists your buildings allow you to have? Maybe even boost this to +1.5 engineer specialists per improvement, if you allow fractional GP from tiles? That's a HUGE bonus, considering how hard it tends to be to get engineers in a polluted GP pool. Seven or so of these industry improvements, in an area surrounded by farms, means that you might have a legitimate shot at creating your own mini-GP farm for engineers.
Similarly, what if each improvement at the end of the trade chain were to give +1 or +1.5 free merchants or citizens (and only merchants or citizens)? Citizens are underused anyway -- though they might be a useful way of eking out more production from the improvement in a pinch. This city, however, should be so commerce specialized that the major focus should be on getting as many of those merchants up and running as possible.
On the other hand, what if each town were to give +1 GP, but it could only be a citizen or scientist? Note that this is a lower number, since in my mined scientists are overpowered vis a vis other specialists (with the exception of engineers, but it's really rare that you get too many engineers). You can still turn the specialist into a citizen if the production is absolutely necessary, but the focus of the town improvement should be on improving science in the city.
The idea is to force a specialization of the GP pool (and by extension, focus city commerce and production) into a particular specialty based on the surrounding improvements. You're building your industrial heartland? Great! You'd expect that this would lead to the emergence of engineers. You're building your massive commerce area? Yup, you'd expect your great people from there to be merchants. And so on and so forth.
In this situation, your improvements help to focus your cities as much as any building do. Yes, it may still be mathematically possible to create an industrial heartland using cottages...but you'll miss out on those engineers and great engineers. If you're not building the science buildings to take advantage of the scientists. Sure, you could use those citizens, but is that really (really?) what you wanted to do? This would encourage us to think strategically about the improvements around their cities in much the way we now have to consider which buildings to put in them.
This approach would have a couple of additional advantages
-- Great people would be generated much more rapidly in the late game. It might even become worthwhile to burn them on techs again.
-- Great people will spawn in appropriate areas. If your civ is going to produce a great merchant, it makes sense that it should spawn in a trade-heavy area. Ditto for GEs and production, and GS and high-density areas where universities would be located.
-- Even though great people would be generated more rapidly, it would not be possible to have massive numbers of golden ages. Since you need great people of multiple types to spawn GAs, you're going to need to generate other types of great people (say spies and priests) too. Good luck with that....
-- The production value of industry and commerce improvements has been increased. It may be necessary to decrease such values to compensate for the value of the specialist.
-- It may be worthwhile to require a building that gives the specialist. This would allow one to jack up the maintenance cost of the city. It would also make it less worth while to build a single industry in a city that otherwise is commerce based; it wouldn't be worth the maintenance to keep the industry-specific building around to get the specialists.
Ok, for the TL;DR crowd.
+ give specific specialists to more improvements
+ industry now gives engineers, and allow you to specialize land for industry
+ trade centers now give merchants or citizens, and allow you to specialize land for income
+ cottages now give scientists or citizens, and allow you to specialize land for science
+ while cities with the "wrong" type of improvement can still produce production/income/science, they will do so less efficiently and may pollute the GP pool
(Note: I'm resurrecting a thread that is now quite old. If you prefer that I start a new topic, tell a moderator to move this post)
Afforess
The White Wizard
The more and more I think about it; the less and less I like the idea of using specialists to balance improvements. We are going to end up unbalancing specialists, and making them too powerful and common, and not really solve the improvement problem.
If towns give a free specialist, and require social contract, then the ideal strategy would be to avoid towns until close to Social Contract, then spam them on less useful tiles, build them up, and use the specialists. That isn't strategy, it's an exploit.
I'm also discovering how less is more; so instead, my improvement changes are largely a revert to what RoM 2.71 had (the last real version where improvements were balanced). I have removed the Trade Center improvements, as they were a bit superfluous. The factory, workshop chain remains largely unchanged, and the town becomes the producer of commerce again. We don't need to create new features to balance the game, but just look backwards enough to see how we used to do it.
If towns give a free specialist, and require social contract, then the ideal strategy would be to avoid towns until close to Social Contract, then spam them on less useful tiles, build them up, and use the specialists. That isn't strategy, it's an exploit.
I'm also discovering how less is more; so instead, my improvement changes are largely a revert to what RoM 2.71 had (the last real version where improvements were balanced). I have removed the Trade Center improvements, as they were a bit superfluous. The factory, workshop chain remains largely unchanged, and the town becomes the producer of commerce again. We don't need to create new features to balance the game, but just look backwards enough to see how we used to do it.
The trade centers are still in beta 9 I thought? I think we don't really need to add any more improvements.
If town become the commerce chain, then I suppose no they don't need specialists. because towns were not the commerce provider was the reason for considering them as giving something else.
However I don't see the consolidation of the orchards. I'll like to see that back.
However I don't see the consolidation of the orchards. I'll like to see that back.
Killtech
Discutator
i wonder if (early) mines shouldn't change their graphics to those of quarries. they look too advanced for the stone age with the rails and the wagon (at least iron age like). the current mine graphics fit better to shaft mines and later me thinks.
this said, why are quarries and mines two distinct improvements? makes setting yield boni from civics very nasty if you have so many different improvements of which most are resource specific. can't mines on stone resources just be called quarries and farms on apples orchards instead?
this said, why are quarries and mines two distinct improvements? makes setting yield boni from civics very nasty if you have so many different improvements of which most are resource specific. can't mines on stone resources just be called quarries and farms on apples orchards instead?
