Better RoM: Units

[Afforess]

What if ranged bombardment was the only way to bombard things. That, and I figure out why ranged bombard fails so often, and make the odds reasonable.

 

[Killtech]

What if ranged bombardment was the only way to bombard things. That, and I figure out why ranged bombard fails so often, and make the odds reasonable.

the simple attack has the benefit that it can be done by a simple drag with the right mouse button while a bombard requires two clicks. other then that it makes no difference to me.

hmm... though can't bombardment be turned off within bug options?

 

[Iceciro]

What if ranged bombardment was the only way to bombard things. That, and I figure out why ranged bombard fails so often, and make the odds reasonable.

Add to that "and ranged bombard can be done from 2 squares away or more (modern/transhuman era)" for us limited UPT players (and honestly, I'd like some feasable way to protect my squishy artillery units)

 

[Sonereal]

Add to that "and ranged bombard can be done from 2 squares away or more (modern/transhuman era)" for us limited UPT players (and honestly, I'd like some feasable way to protect my squishy artillery units)

I'm looking at you catapult, cannon, and trebuchet but then again, they do make great Attack Support units.

 

[Iceciro]

I'm looking at you catapult, cannon, and trebuchet but then again, they do make great Attack Support units.

Ehhh, I like the fact that RoM is a sort of quasi-stepping stone to some of the concepts in Civ V, and taking away Stack Attack related jobs for units seems like a good idea to me, considering there are no stacks in Civ V.

 

[Killtech]

the most balanced behavior for siege weapons would be the following IMHO:

• cannot do more then 20% damage per attack on one unit. (artillery damage should be about the same magnitude as the healing between turns).
• artillery damage depends on artillery strength only. starting with a catapult with 5% (it's anti buildings and not anti unit) ending with modern artillery dealing up to 20%.
• actual damage is random between max damage and 1/2 of it.
• artillery/collateral damage cannot damage any unit more then 50% health. (alternatively, if a units has <=50% health it is immune to further collateral damage)
• fortification defense bonus is subtracted from max artillery damage (e.g. +25% fortified unit will keep at least 75% health under artillery fire)
• anti-collateral damage promotions can reduce max artillery damage further.
• bombardment reduces automatically tile defenses - no distinction between unit bombard and city defense bombard anymore.
• artillery can be both captured (no defender on the tile) and destroyed through flanking attacks (so it still needs hitpoints)
• cannot defend itself.
• cannot attack, only bombard. if possible the movement on an enemy should be interpreted as an bombard order.
• artillery deals collateral damage to all units on a tile
• reduced-collateral damage is applied to several other promotions (city defense a.o.)

the very same mechanics could be used for plane bombardments against units.

EDIT: i've made my suggestion a bit of the view of the UPT limit. so i guess the "artillery deals collateral damage to all units on a tile" statement isn't all that good. however the amount of units getting collateral damage should be greatly increased due to the damage reduction (max 20% damage isn't that much after all).

 

[os79]

the most balanced behavior for siege weapons would be the following IMHO:

• cannot do more then 20% damage per attack on one unit. (artillery damage should be about the same magnitude as the healing between turns).
• artillery damage depends on artillery strength only. starting with a catapult with 5% ending with modern artillery dealing up to 20%.
• actual damage is random between max damage and 1/2 of it.
• artillery/collateral damage cannot damage any unit more then 50% health.
• fortification defense bonus is subtracted from max artillery damage (e.g. +25% fortified unit will keep at least 75% health under artillery fire)
• anti-collateral damage promotions can reduce max artillery damage further.
• bombardment reduces automatically tile defenses - no distinction between unit bombard and city defense bombard anymore.
• artillery can be both captured (no defender on the tile) and destroyed through flanking attacks (so it still needs hitpoints)
• cannot defend itself.
• cannot attack, only bombard. if possible the movement on an enemy should be interpreted as an bombard order.
• artillery deals collateral damage to all units on a tile
• reduced-collateral damage is applied to several other promotions (city defense a.o.)

This looks like it will be out of my skill sets. I will let Afforess or you do this (like I asked Iceicro to do detailed changes of UUs and Vincentz to do detailed changes of tracked and wheeled units).

Plus Ninja2 just released newest Merged mod. He has this thing called Accuracy. Afforess, can you investigate this and then analyze it if you like it? Then fill in blanks where needed and upload latest changes?

Btw, Iceicro and Vincentz, please go ahead and do these things and upload your changes. If Afforess, Killtech and I like these changes, I will just ask Afforess to merge in. Reason: this modmod in the post is the same as the one in Better RoM in 1.74 now.

That should work until 1.74 becomes an official version, then I will be back to doing new versions by myself until next new version.

 

[Sonereal]

Ehhh, I like the fact that RoM is a sort of quasi-stepping stone to some of the concepts in Civ V, and taking away Stack Attack related jobs for units seems like a good idea to me, considering there are no stacks in Civ V.

Yes, but I can't help like they Attack Support ability. It makes it so I don't have to send them suicidally at a city to do damage. I can send other units instead. =)

 

[os79]

I think that Privateer (navy unit) is overpowered without National limit. So I would like ot set National limit of 3 for Privateer. Afforess, if you agree with that, please add that in the next revision to my Better RoM: Units.

Reason: they are hidden nationality units and that would be unfair to other players. Plus, it would ease upgrade process to just three Chinese junks (normally caravels) to upgrade.

 

[vincentz]

or how about making the privateer to civic unit (mercantilism f.ex.)

 

[strategyonly]

I need a unit (from RoM of course) that was like a Civ III unit, (I think it was the Ashikaga shogunate), ie:

It was invisible for others (like a spy)
It could travel though other civs without any problems (like a spy)
But the best thing about it was that you could attach anyone at anytime and they could NOT do anything about it (something like the Privateer but it can be seen and then destroyed which i dont want), i just want it to kill a few units then move on, WITHOUT causing any war status or something like that, any ideas?

 

[Iceciro]

I've got notes for my changes, but I'm currently beta-testing 1.74 and I don't want to unleash anything on the unsuspecting populace until the beta period for it is over. XML changes, like I'm looking at, can always be patched in. Posting the current things here, for community poking/discussion, though.

American Navy SEAL - Add "Targets any machine gun, artillery units first in combat."

Aztec Jaguar - The Aztec military would employ the use of the atlatl dart before an attack. - I would give them a first strike. Another interesting thing would be to give them ranged bombard (An atlatl can readily achieve ranges of greater than 100 meters and speeds of over 100 km/h) but since that's an optional setting, the first strike is probably the better choice.

(Celtia) Gallic Warrior: The Gauls were the first known civlization to develop mail armor - grant them immunity to first strikes. They can keep Guerilla but it's really a non-issue due to the Dun.

French Musketeer - Base movment down to one, starts with Morale and Patrol I.

Hittie Chariot - +100% damage versus melee units, instead of just axemen.

Holy Roman Landschnecht - Gets 6 str again.

Maya Holkan - I still have no idea what to do here. Not a clue.

 

[os79]

I've got notes for my changes, but I'm currently beta-testing 1.74 and I don't want to unleash anything on the unsuspecting populace until the beta period for it is over. XML changes, like I'm looking at, can always be patched in. Posting the current things here, for community poking/discussion, though.

American Navy SEAL - Add "Targets any machine gun, artillery units first in combat."

Aztec Jaguar - The Aztec military would employ the use of the atlatl dart before an attack. - I would give them a first strike. Another interesting thing would be to give them ranged bombard (An atlatl can readily achieve ranges of greater than 100 meters and speeds of over 100 km/h) but since that's an optional setting, the first strike is probably the better choice.

(Celtia) Gallic Warrior: The Gauls were the first known civlization to develop mail armor - grant them immunity to first strikes. They can keep Guerilla but it's really a non-issue due to the Dun.

French Musketeer - Base movment down to one, starts with Morale and Patrol I.

Hittie Chariot - +100% damage versus melee units, instead of just axemen.

Holy Roman Landschnecht - Gets 6 str again.

Maya Holkan - I still have no idea what to do here. Not a clue.

I'm playing 1.74 beta too. So your changes will go into BR:U because I agree with the changes above. Only one obstacle left is Afforess' approval.

So in addition to my request to have National limit of 3 for Privateers, Afforess, add Iceicro's recommendations, please. Only if you agree. Please comment here if you disagree with my National limit or Iceicro's changes so we can tweak further to fit your Better RoM: Units preferences .

 

[Afforess]

I'm playing 1.74 beta too. So your changes will go into BR:U because I agree with the changes above. Only one obstacle left is Afforess' approval.

So in addition to my request to have National limit of 3 for Privateers, Afforess, add Iceicro's recommendations, please. Only if you agree. Please comment here if you disagree with my National limit or Iceicro's changes so we can tweak further to fit your Better RoM: Units preferences .

I approve; except of the limit for Privateers. I think that locking them to the Mercantile Civic is good enough as a barrier.

 

[os79]

I approve; except of the limit for Privateers. I think that locking them to the Mercantile Civic is good enough as a barrier.

OK, good enough .

 

[os79]

Opening up for discussion first:

How about undeleting Flamethrowers and dogs and instead change them into Classical until late Industrial "special forces" units? Have them upgrade each other (first dog [forgot its name]-->second dog-->flamethrower-->Special Forces. And have them be limited either by civic or something. Have them specialize at hidden nationality fast pillaging skills scaled to each eras, of course. Well what do you think of these ideas? Refine it? Tweak my ideas? Forget it and leave them deleted as they are now?

 

[Iceciro]

Honestly? I friggin hated the dog units. Always did, always will, and am glad to see them gone.

The flamethrower units, my comments on have been seen throughout the thread.

Honestly, I dislike restricting privateers to mercantilism. The reason people have problems with them is that they haven't built an effective shore-defense navy - I don't see this as a problem. Perhaps they have too high strength that allows them to be problems for low-tech civs, but that's not the same problem.

Hell, I'm still hoping for Afforess to get the code in to allow a hidden nationality promotion for ships in general.

 

[Afforess]

Opening up for discussion first:

How about undeleting Flamethrowers and dogs and instead change them into Classical until late Industrial "special forces" units? Have them upgrade each other (first dog [forgot its name]-->second dog-->flamethrower-->Special Forces. And have them be limited either by civic or something. Have them specialize at hidden nationality fast pillaging skills scaled to each eras, of course. Well what do you think of these ideas? Refine it? Tweak my ideas? Forget it and leave them deleted as they are now?

Honestly? I friggin hated the dog units. Always did, always will, and am glad to see them gone.

Agreed. The dogs were silly, and the AI suffered as a result. I vote we let them rest in peace. Same with the flamethrower. As cool as it is, it's not historically, or realistically, a powerful weapon.

Honestly, I dislike restricting privateers to mercantilism. The reason people have problems with them is that they haven't built an effective shore-defense navy - I don't see this as a problem. Perhaps they have too high strength that allows them to be problems for low-tech civs, but that's not the same problem.

An alternate idea for privateers is to scrap the Privateer unit, and give all ships a new action button, much like the existing Great Commander button, that turns them into privateers. Basically, a "Letter of Marque" kind of thing. Then the unit would become a pirate ship, with hidden nationality. The downside being, that there would be a chance of the unit going rogue. Further, if the unit died, there might be a chance of being exposed, and getting negative relations with others. I think some civics should disallow the use of pirates though, like maybe Free Market.

 

[Iceciro]

An alternate idea for privateers is to scrap the Privateer unit, and give all ships a new action button, much like the existing Great Commander button, that turns them into privateers. Basically, a "Letter of Marque" kind of thing. Then the unit would become a pirate ship, with hidden nationality. The downside being, that there would be a chance of the unit going rogue. Further, if the unit died, there might be a chance of being exposed, and getting negative relations with others. I think some civics should disallow the use of pirates though, like maybe Free Market.

This. This. This this this this. I want it now. Letter of Marque would be great, especially if you can teach the AI to use it, but not use it on every boat ever.

 

[os79]

This. This. This this this this. I want it now. Letter of Marque would be great, especially if you can teach the AI to use it, but not use it on every boat ever.

Seconded!

I'm very glad I opened up this thread because, with all due respect to people who weighed Zappara down with these added units, I think this issupposed to be a game, even if it attempt to be as close to feeling of history as possible. So I'm glad we get these ideas out there and discussed . In my games ever since alpha version, I had been blown away by new changes that actually work! Chhers for Afforess and us .

EDIT: Speaking of deletion: Afforess, do you mind if you can figure out how to force Delete units because it is slightly annoying to still see these units we deleted out in Civilopedia . Not urgent but would be a nice cosmetic change .