Bible talk

[Birdjaguar]

Thank you, Core Impostor. I do not see any reference to a rapture in that passage. I think one has to have been coached to believe in such a thing in order to read "gathering together unto" as "rapture." But it's good to have the source of "falling away" identified, though it's interesting that RSV has that as "rebellion" instead. I'll go look at the Greek.

Edit: Ok, I'm back. The Greek word is apostacy, which means "standing away from." I totally understand why translators avoid the English "apostacy," because that word has become religiously-charged with a different meaning. In other words, the "away" is good, for "apo," but the "falling" isn't terribly good for stasia.

Maybe it doesn't feel to you as though there's much difference between a "falling away" and a "standing apart from." But if we're supposed to be looking for signs of it, as markers of an end time, those two actions seem significantly different to me.

So now I'm interested in this:



The passage from 2 Thessalonians seems so vague that I don't see how one could see a definite sign of its occurring. By definite, I mean applying to it and to only it.

Here is a link to multiple bible versions of any text.

2 Thessalonians: The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians

biblehub.com

 

[Core Imposter]

Coached?

• 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which describes how the dead in Christ will rise first and then the living believers will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, which explains how the mortal bodies of the believers will be changed into immortal and incorruptible bodies at the last trumpet.
• John 14:3, which records Jesus' promise to come back and take his followers to his Father's house.
• Matthew 24:30-31, which depicts the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and glory and sending his angels to gather his elect from the four winds.

The day of the Lord is mentioned in the scriptures in a number of places and is specifically the day of judgement and wrath, from which the elect shall be protected. The doctrine of the rapture is far from being common to all Protestants.

 

[Gori the Grey]

"Rapture" as term for it is historically very recent.

But arpazdo in the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does have a meaning very much like that.

It still remains a little weird, to this reader, to convert a verb describing one action that will occur during the end times into a noun centrally describing the end times. It would be kind of like picking the word "punted" out of a description of a football game and saying, The Punt was televised on TV last night when you mean that the football game was.

That's what I mean by "coached." These various scriptures assembled and interpretively processed to give a more definite picture than the verses themselves directly convey.

 

[Core Imposter]

Here is a link to multiple bible versions of any text.

2 Thessalonians: The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians

biblehub.com

And another:

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - King James Version

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Angst]

Funny how prophecies are never falsifiable and are always pointed at after they have occured.

aye. so there's tone here (which i get, i don't mind it; i don't believe in prophecy), but let me be a bit more excited about it: prophetic time is fatalist but doesn't distinguish from the temporal. there's overlap with determinism, but i really enjoy the fatalistic part of it. so if i say (prophecize) i'm going to touch my glass of water, and then do it, then there is no distinction between my statement being true in retrospect, being true as a future supposition, or being true in the moment. the prophet does not distinguish between the three, it's the same as touching the glass in the moment. now none of this is particularly novel as i put it, but it can do some fun stuff if you're into fatalist logic and like just doing abstractions for the heck of it. like if you like to play with math idk, it can do some interesting stuff in structures of formal fatalistic logic.

it's indeed funny though, since the nature of prophecy is the nature of fatalism, but without the power of actual prediction (as fatalism doesn't concern itself with either!). it's not really tied to temporality or causality. because the nature of prophecy is to note how things are/will be, now actually how things concretely do cause and effect. this is how it differs from, well, science, which seeks to explain why a ball bumbling into another moves the other ball. prophecy just states what happens and is true if it's true. it can't really "predict" as to expectations of outcome, at least as to its attempts of describing cause and effect, it has traditionally failed; and even in modern times, diviners are just usually wrong. so it's literally in the realm of fatalism

 

[Birdjaguar]

"Rapture" as term for it is historically very recent.

But arpazdo in the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does have a meaning very much like that.

It still remains a little weird, to this reader, to convert a verb describing one action that will occur during the end times into a noun centrally describing the end times. It would be kind of like picking the word "punt" out of a description of a football game and saying, The Punt was televised on TV last night when you mean that the football game was.

Perhaps it can be blamed on all the false prophets of the 19th and 20th centuries who preached about the imminent coming end of days.

 

[Core Imposter]

I should probably make clear that when I speak of being in the end times I am speaking of being in the time of apostasy (falling away) rather than the tribulation. My doctrine holds that the Church will not be present during the tribulation, that the anti-christ will not be revealed while the Church is present.

So, the end times, by this way of understanding, includes the period of falling away but the Church is raptured kicking off the seven years of tribulation. There are mid-trib interpretations as well. I don't want to say one is wrong or another. It will be revealed. The falling away includes the apostasy of the Church and the churches as institutions and the normalization of proscribed behaviors throughout the culture.

Timothy says: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Well documented teaching in my view.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Perhaps it can be blamed on all the false prophets of the 19th and 20th centuries who preached about the imminent coming end of days.

That's kind of what I'm getting at, Bird, though "false prophets" is a tad stronger than I would say. All I mean is that when you say "The Rapture," the the in that phrase gives an impression of something fixed and known and known by that name and best-to-be-known by that name, like "The World Series," let's say. But the Bible doesn't speak of "The Rapture." It speaks of End Times. It makes very definite claims about End Times (Core Impostor laid out several of them). But in only one of those is any word remotely resembling "Rapture" used, and there it is a verb and not a noun.

Just strikes me as giving a strong misimpression of how we are to pre-imagine that event.

But now to get back to the matter that most interests me:

when I speak of being in the end times I am speaking of being in the time of apostasy

What strike you as the signs that we are in this phase of the end times? Just that Christianity been supplanted by secularism in Western nations that were previously predominantly Christian?

It's just that, by it self, "stand away from" is so vague an action that I can scarcely imagine anything that couldn't be described in that way.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Doctrines are built on the fulfillment of prophesies and of course we see opposing doctrines. The bible says that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Christ said, " For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.". God will reveal the fulfillment and there will be no doubt. It should not be difficult for both the believer and the non-believer to draw a clear line between false doctrines and false teachers concerning the return of Christ, which I referred to.

That's kind of what I'm getting at, Bird, though "false prophets" is a tad stronger than I would say. All I mean is that when you say "The Rapture," the the in that phrase gives an impression of something fixed and known and known by that name and best-to-be-known by that name, like "The World Series," let's say. But the Bible doesn't speak of "The Rapture." It speaks of End Times. It makes very definite claims about End Times (Core Impostor laid out several of them). But in only one of those is any word remotely resembling "Rapture" used, and there it is a verb and not a noun.

Just strikes me as giving a strong misimpression of how we are to pre-imagine that event.

I was using false prophets where CI was using false teachers. There may even be an earlier reference to False prophets further back.

All about the Rapture:

What is the rapture? And what does the Bible say about it? Many are familiar with the term. But all too often their understanding of the rapture is based more on popular writings like the Left Behind series than Scripture itself. The intent of this article is to look at what the Bible has to say about the rapture.

Where Does the Bible Talk about the Rapture?
Rapture is not a word that is found in Scripture. But it is used to describe a very biblical doctrine; the return of Christ and the gathering up of his elect. This doctrine is central to the hope that we have as believers.

There are many scenarios of the end times that have been drawn from Jesus’ Revelation to John. But I do not find that there are any unambiguous references to the rapture contained in Revelation. Much of how one interprets Revelation is based upon their eschatological perspective. So, for that reason, I have chosen not to include anything from Revelation in this discussion. But there are three passages in the New Testament that do provide us with explicit information about this event.

Matthew 24:30-31 is a portion of Jesus’ teaching about his return. In this passage he says that all the peoples of the earth will see him coming in the clouds. And that with a trumpet call, he will send his angels to gather his elect from throughout the earth.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul defends the future resurrection of believers. And in verses 50-55 he describes what that will be like. It will happen in a moment, at the last trumpet. When the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, and the living believers will be changed.

The third passage is also from Paul and is in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. In this passage Paul is seeking to encourage the believers in Thessalonica concerning some of their members who had died. He assures them that the Lord will return from heaven, along with a trumpet call. And when that happens, the dead in Christ will be raised, and those still alive will be caught up together with them.

These three passages do not share all the same details. But they do have enough in common to point to a common event. They affirm that Christ will return visibly for all to see and the last trumpet points to this event being at the end. It will involve the resurrection of believers who have died and the transformation of those who are still living at his return.

When Does the Bible Say the Rapture Will Happen?​

When will this second coming of Christ and our being gathered to him occur? The best answer we can give with any certainty is that it will be at the end of this age. In Matthew 24:3 Jesus’ disciples ask about Jesus coming and the end of the age. Jesus’ response to their question culminates with the passage mentioned above with Jesus’ return and our being gathered to him.

But exactly when “the end of the age” will be is a big unknown. In Matthew 24:36, Jesus tells his disciples that no one, other than the Father, knows when that end will occur. Not even the angels in heaven, or even the Son. And, in Acts 1:7, in response to his disciple’s question about the establishment of the kingdom, Jesus says that it is not for them to know the when. The end will come in the Father’s time, and he has not chosen to share that with us.

Another passage that deals with the when of the rapture is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. In this passage, Paul cautions the Thessalonian believers not to become concerned that the Lord’s return and our being gathered had already occurred. He assured them that it will not come before a great apostasy first takes place and the antichrist is revealed.

But, while we may not know when the rapture will occur, it should not take us by surprise. In Matthew 24:42-51 Jesus tells us to keep prepared for his coming. While we do not know the when of the event, we should expect it at any time. In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8, Paul expresses that the Lord’s return will be like a thief in the night. But we are not in darkness, so that day should not be a surprise to us. So always be ready, living in the light, and wearing the hope of salvation as a helmet.

What Is the Rapture and Is it Biblical?

What is the rapture? And what does the Bible say about it? Many are familiar with the term. But all too often their understanding of the rapture is based more on popular writings like the Left Behind series than Scripture itself. The intent of this article is to look at what the Bible has to...

www.biblestudytools.com

What Is the Rapture?

Will Christians be raptured before the tribulation? Or will we rise to meet the Lord only at his final coming?

www.desiringgod.org

 

[Core Imposter]

The rapture, then, is not a concept that suddenly appeared when dispensationalism came along. The word was used in English and Latin long prior. However, it was understood differently, so we need to examine what the church fathers wrote regarding this rapio or raptus: a) what is it, b) when does it occur and c) is it secIt i

What is the rapture?​

Church fathers widely understand the rapture to be a future physical meeting of Christ and Christians in the air.

Origen gives no indication of a hidden meaning in Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. He simply writes that both the dead and alive in Christ will rise:

Those whom we spoke of as dead have special need of the resurrection, since not even those who are alive can be taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air before the dead in Christ first rise. (Commentary on John, 20.233)

Rufinus of Aquileia clearly indicates a physical reunion with Christ in the sky:

And do not marvel that the flesh of the saints is to be changed into such a glorious condition at the resurrection as to be caught up to meet God, suspended in the clouds and borne in the air. (Commentary on the Apostles' Creed, 46)

Augustine says that living Christians will "both die and rise again at once while caught up into the air":

And why should it seem to us incredible that that multitude of bodies should be, as it were, sown in the air, and should in the air forthwith revive immortal and incorruptible, when we believe, on the testimony of the same apostle, that the resurrection shall take place in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dust of bodies long dead shall return with incomprehensible facility and swiftness to those members that are now to live endlessly? (City of God, 20.20)

What did the early church believe about the "rapture"?

There are a lot of differing opinions on when the rapture will take place (pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, or mid-tribulation). From my own attempts to research the topic and look at Scripture f...

christianity.stackexchange.com

 

[Core Imposter]

There is room to push back on the idea that the rapture is simply a recent teaching, but it is strongly linked with dispensationalism.

 

[Gori the Grey]

The problem is not the word "rapture," Core Impostor. Of course that's been used since forever. The problem is the word "the." None of the Church fathers you cited use a noun. They use verbs--taken up, caught up--as a set of actions that will occur during a process.

Look at the noun all three of them use for the event. It's the same noun in each case. And it's not rapture, let alone "the rapture."

And your starting sentence breaks off midway through part c.

 

[Core Imposter]

Okay, so let's get into this a little. The Church is identified as the bride of Christ. We are in the Church age which will end with the beginning of the period of tribulation. Christ will gather the Church at the end of the age, both dead and living and the marriage of the Lamb will take place in Heaven. Then the day of the Lord will come at the end of the tribulation, the Church will return with Him.

Others hold to mid and post tribulation views.

 

[Gori the Grey]

On the premise that there are interesting things in the Bible between Noah's Ark and the End Times, I'll give a codicil to an earlier post.

This evening I'm finishing up the gospel of Luke and 24:41, he asks for something to eat. Remember that he was mindful that the young girl he raised from the dead would be hungry and in addition to, you know, raising her from the dead, instructed her parents to give her something to eat. Now that seems like a foreshadowing of this little detail. Now this detail is meaningful to Christian theology because it establishes that he wasn't just a ghost, but was resurrected bodily. Of course that's its core meaning. But it also resonates with that detail I highlighted in my earlier post.

 

[Core Imposter]

There are many scriptures like that which I have read through and not understood, some have been revealed to me and others not. Thank you for the insight.

 

[Snowygerry]

On the premise that there are interesting things in the Bible between Noah's Ark and the End Times, I'll give a codicil to an earlier post.

This evening I'm finishing up the gospel of Luke and 24:41, he asks for something to eat. Remember that he was mindful that the young girl he raised from the dead would be hungry and in addition to, you know, raising her from the dead, instructed her parents to give her something to eat. Now that seems like a foreshadowing of this little detail. Now this detail is meaningful to Christian theology because it establishes that he wasn't just a ghost, but was resurrected bodily. Of course that's its core meaning. But it also resonates with that detail I highlighted in my earlier post.

He asked for meat, didn't he ? He got fish and bread iirc, that's where it all went wrong.

 

[Gori the Grey]

He asked for something to eat. What they gave him was a piece of broiled fish.

 

[Snowygerry]

In your King James bible he asks for meat.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?


42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.


43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 24:41-43 - King James Version

And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.

www.biblegateway.com

Admittedly in all other languages, it's "something to eat..."

Statenvertaling. 41 En toen zij het van blijdschap nog niet geloofden, en zich verwonderden, zeide Hij tot hen: Hebt gij hier iets om te eten?
King James Bible. [41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luther-Bibel. 41 Als sie aber noch nicht glaubten vor Freude und sich verwunderten, sprach er zu ihnen: Habt ihr hier etwas zu essen?
- 3de (derde) paaszondag B. Toen ze het van vreugde en verbazing niet konden geloven zei Hij tot hen: "Hebt ge hier iets te eten?"

Must be the medieval love of meat then

24:41 eti de apistountôn autôn apo tès charas kai thaumazontôn eipen autois echete ti brôsimon enthade

http://www.interlevensbeschouwelijk.be/lucasc24.html#Lc244

 

[Gori the Grey]

In the seventeenth century, "meat" could just mean "food." If they wanted to say what we now mean by "meat," they generally said "flesh."

The Greek word being translated just means "food."

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Up until recently I thought the falling away meant the multitudes who claim to believe in Christ suddenly rejecting Him. I think I may be wrong about that though and I'll explain why in my reply to Gori.

You see the rapture, the revealing of the anti-christ, the falling away, and the day of the Lord. Not in chronological order necessarily.

That day (the day of the Lord) will not come until there is the falling away first. In other words after the rapture the man of sin will be revealed and transformed into the man of lawlessness.

I do not see any reference to a rapture in that passage.

In 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 the Greek word used in the original text is arpazo (αρπάξω) which means to snatch away violently or quickly. To suddenly remove as if from saving from danger. Rapturo is the Latin word used for αρπάξω in the early texts. We get the English rapture from rapturo.

The Greek word is apostacy, which means "standing away from."

Gori whether you realize it or not you confirmed what I just recently discovered. I originally thought αποστασία or apostasy meant a falling away as in people leaving the faith in great numbers. I believe, in light of recent events, that the real definition to use in this passage is indeed "standing away from". As in the world will stand away from Israel. Furthermore when they stand away from Israel they will say peace and safety has arrived at last. That is when sudden destruction, or the rapture, will come upon them as suddenly as a woman in travail. When the rapture does occur, and it will, there will be such chaos that it will be sudden destruction.

Maybe it doesn't feel to you as though there's much difference between a "falling away" and a "standing apart from." But if we're supposed to be looking for signs of it, as markers of an end time, those two actions seem significantly different to me.

There is a huge difference definitely. See my reply to you above.

It's just that, by it self, "stand away from" is so vague an action that I can scarcely imagine anything that couldn't be described in that way.

Have you ever been to a social gathering and noticed that there is sometimes a person standing all alone because everyone else seems to be "standing away from" him? When the world collectively stands away from Israel that will be the beginning of sorrows. Today many, not all, nations are condemning Israel for it's actions. Soon and very soon I think all the nations will stand away from Israel.


So in conclusion I believe as events in the world unfold certain bible passages will become clear that they will jump right off the pages into reality. The Lord told Daniel, a prophet from the old testament, to shut the words up until the appointed time comes. You all can read the signs of the earth, the weather, and the winds. Pay close attention to the signs of the times as well and compare it to scripture.

We are living in very biblical times as foretold in the bible. I believe that with all my heart, soul, and mind.