Biggest complaint

[MagnusIlluminus]

To build on what WimpyTheWarrior, civfan613, and I have said above, perhaps Cultures could be changed into being another form of Religion? That is to say that they could be spread like Religions are, they could have 'holy city' like wonders, etc. As was mentioned above, historically cities have often contained more than just one culture, especially ones with heavy trading with other nations. For that matter America, while being heavily European, has influences from everywhere. Yes, this would add a level of micromanagement comparable to Religions, but it would add many possibilities as well.

Requiring multiple resources to be able to build a Culture would probably have to have the number scale by map size, but could be interesting.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@civfan613
You should look up the "Progenitor" topic.

@WimpyTheWarrior

Early on it was succeeded we might try it like the religious do where you had cathedrals and temple equivalents of buildings. But it got so complex and unrealistic that once unlimited resources were made then it seemed the more easy choice. Ideally we would need something in between Corporations and Religions, but did not interact with either. Also properties would be too complex.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't believe using properties would be too complex and have been long considering such a project to be something I'd eventually wish to implement.

 

[dusckr87]

The leader (and it's traits) can be a part of the civ, but they really aren't, as one can select 'unrestricted leaders' and use any leader with any civ. This can lead to some ... interesting combinations.

I'll be honest and say it is pretty silly to use unrestricted leaders considering what little else the starting civ brings to the table.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Why not make your civ's name choosable based on the current cultures you already have???
Maybe not automatic, but a special command

But you can already change your civ name to whatever you want, vanilla Civ IV feature.

 

[Sgtslick]

Is it possible to create an option which guarantees that the player will get an event that would place his/her original countries' resources near their capital sometime during ancient era?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Is it possible to create an option which guarantees that the player will get an event that would place his/her original countries' resources near their capital sometime during ancient era?

You would have to make an event for every playable civ. Not to mention some require terrain as well. It might be very odd if you played as the Polynesian (which require fish) but you started in the center of a landmass nowhere near water. Is the fish supose to spawn on land?

 

[WimpyTheWarrior]

I can see the realism in making the unique cultures a property or spread like a religion, but I wonder if abstracting the Embassy to a National Wonder is good enough for game terms? It's so darn easy to edit Embassy_CIV4BuildingClassInfos.xml that I'm going to have a play with the Cultural Embassies as National Wonders. I just had a quick play and Yep I built a second Culture (Zulu) and I can build Impi's but the Ikhanda is already gone. I'm going to roll back a few 100 turns and see how it plays out.

I can already see one game advantage of this as there was a previous discussion of OP unique units. Well your Koas aren't so bad now that I have some Koas of my own!

Another twist could be to have the UU only buildable in the city with the embassy, not just the culture. The RL logic here is that the city where the culture was founded has the most followers of that culture which is necessary to build the UU, but other cities only need a few citizens of that culture to direct the building of the Wonder. A few Zulus can manage the construction of the Ikhanda anywhere, but the Impi unit needs lots of Zulus, whom are only found near the elephants and savanahs.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@WimpyTheWarrior

The problem with the units needing the Wonder is that some people complained that they could not build the culture units in their "military city". Which is one reason culture was made into a resource. You should check with the old topic on this and see the process. It will help answer why it has evolved into the form it has currently. While not ideal it is the best implementation so far.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You would have to make an event for every playable civ. Not to mention some require terrain as well. It might be very odd if you played as the Polynesian (which require fish) but you started in the center of a landmass nowhere near water. Is the fish supose to spawn on land?

True, and that's always been our logic in the way the system works. However, there are always going to be a lot of players upset by this structure (among which I am NOT one of them) so I'm wondering why you'd be against a game option that makes it so that you get the WW culture of your civ's type for free in your capital? It'd quiet these arguments and allow the rest of us to play it as designed (which I do like.)

This would involve just one simple tag (AutoCulture) and game option (Vanilla Culture) that lets us establish the culture building so its attached to the Civilization definition, and only on the game option would it give it for free to the civ's capital. Would not take long in the civilizationinfos xml to add those tags in once set up. I could do that myself if you're not vehemently against the concept as a whole.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I am not sure if was you who mentioned the custom palace idea before but the main problem is there are a lot of buildings that depend upon the Palace. Such as Myths, Palace Gardens, Pseudo-Wonders, etc.

The way you would have to do it is in the "Native Culture" building or even a new Unique building done modularity. However I if this was done then another culture could still build the culture wonder. I am not sure how to make it so if you have the setting on that only some of the culture wonders turn off. Especially when its dependent upon what civs were in your world.

Would also no other civs be possible? Such as if you picked to the English civ you would get the English culture, but would non-playable civ cultures like Welsh or Scottish be disabled? And even if it was a playable one like the French, what if there was no French civ? Or none in the beginning of the game and then from a revolution there was one generated?

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Is it possible to create an option which guarantees that the player will get an event that would place his/her original countries' resources near their capital sometime during ancient era?

Why go about it in such a roundabout way instead of just automatically building the culture in your capital at the start of the game?

 

[Flinx]

Why go about it in such a roundabout way instead of just automatically building the culture in your capital at the start of the game?

Maybe for some people like me which enjoy the current culture system.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd

I am not sure if was you who mentioned the custom palace idea before but the main problem is there are a lot of buildings that depend upon the Palace. Such as Myths, Palace Gardens, Pseudo-Wonders, etc.

No. I would not go about it with a custom palace for that very reason.

The way you would have to do it is in the "Native Culture" building or even a new Unique building done modularity. However I if this was done then another culture could still build the culture wonder. I am not sure how to make it so if you have the setting on that only some of the culture wonders turn off. Especially when its dependent upon what civs were in your world.

I don't have to change the Native Culture building itself but use it as the definition of the building that would be free under the CivilizationInfos with a new tag. As a WW, no other civ would be able to build that culture once its been claimed the first time so it'd be a bit rough to interface just right with Assimilation but that'd be an acceptable trade off for those who want this I think.

No other Culture wonders would turn off or be unable to be built - the system would allow for cultural diversity to grow throughout the game (leading to some getting an understanding of our mechanism if they don't understand it yet in an environment that doesn't require they do.) So all the unclaimed cultures are still up for grabs - only the civilization's core culture is not.

However, some few civs might get the shaft by arriving in late on the scene when another civ has taken their culture - I'll have to remember to check to make sure if any other civ has already before autobuilding (note to self). And some few might even be overlapping duplicates - the second versions of the same named civ would be going without the Cultural Wonder. This is acceptable because its always going to be an AI except in the VERY rare scenario where we have a huge multiplayer game AND they happen to have selected the same civ somehow.

Would also no other civs be possible? Such as if you picked to the English civ you would get the English culture, but would non-playable civ cultures like Welsh or Scottish be disabled? And even if it was a playable one like the French, what if there was no French civ? Or none in the beginning of the game and then from a revolution there was one generated?

Don't see why we'd disable any of the rest and if there was no french civ, anyone could grab that available culture - if already grabbed, the revolting nation probably shouldn't have chosen France (poor guys). As they'd be AIs, I wouldn't feel too bad for this coincidence.

What I WOULD need to do is figure out how to get those buildings to fully ignore being shut down due to loss of prerequisite resource access - they need to be able to work with or without that access. That's possible from the XML now though isn't it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

What I WOULD need to do is figure out how to get those buildings to fully ignore being shut down due to loss of prerequisite resource access - they need to be able to work with or without that access. That's possible from the XML now though isn't it?

Yeah I don't know if its even possible to remove it unless you use "force override". You would have to have I think 3 things set up.

1. A new game setting that can turn the mod on and off.

2. A mod that gives the wonder for free to that civ. I am guessing as its 2nd UB.

3. An override mod that overrides only the culture wonders that are playable and removes their requirements.

However for number 3 I have no idea how to make it so it can be on when they are in action and off when they are not. What you might want to do is separate them into Major and Minor cultures.

Major Culture = Can only be played by your civ and us automatically given. If a civ is not generated on your world then you cannot get that culture. (Ex. China, Rome, Zulu, Aztec, etc).

Minor Civ = These work like we have now. (ex. Welsh, Basque, Chumash, Quechua, Zapotec, etc)

Note you could still get the UB of other civs through assimilation and capturing the city with that culture wonder.

If you want to attempt this be my guest. I have enough on my plate.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd



Yeah I don't know if its even possible to remove it unless you use "force override". You would have to have I think 3 things set up.

1. A new game setting that can turn the mod on and off.

2. A mod that gives the wonder for free to that civ. I am guessing as its 2nd UB.

3. An override mod that overrides only the culture wonders that are playable and removes their requirements.

However for number 3 I have no idea how to make it so it can be on when they are in action and off when they are not. What you might want to do is separate them into Major and Minor cultures.

Major Culture = Can only be played by your civ and us automatically given. If a civ is not generated on your world then you cannot get that culture. (Ex. China, Rome, Zulu, Aztec, etc).

Minor Civ = These work like we have now. (ex. Welsh, Basque, Chumash, Quechua, Zapotec, etc)

Note you could still get the UB of other civs through assimilation and capturing the city with that culture wonder.

If you want to attempt this be my guest. I have enough on my plate.

Yeah, I know. I would like to help here to smooth this issue out since its just created so much controversy and this would be a rather easy way to resolve it. I only have one thing I'd request of you (if its even necessary) and I'll mention that below.

To respond to your comments:

1) Setting up the game option itself is so easy its silly.

2) As I said, just a tag to define the Culture wonder building that gets delivered for free to the capital of a given civilization in the civilization infos would be sufficient there - might take a little time to go through all the civilizations and set them up that way but not difficult by any means. However, we do have to make sure we have a defined culture for every current civilization in the game. Pirates? THAT would need to be done to make sure one civilization doesn't get the shaft under this option. I know we have all the necessities to flesh it out (UUs basically).

3) I don't find there's any reason to disconnect the ability to earn more cultures or to earn cultures other civs COULD have but with the option programming, I could restructure the WW prereq of only 1 to find this free assignment to be an exception to the rule that limits the WWs to only one. I'd also want to make sure these auto-assigned wonders don't count against the wonder limit if they do now.

So it does appear I'll have to make it possible for those buildings to either be duplicated thanks to being handed for free despite being WWs (not problematic when assigning as I can route the assignment to ignore all building prereqs, more problematic when it comes to the bug messages that will tend to throw around when running the debug dll saying that a wonder has somehow ended up in the game twice!- will need to isolate these as a unique case as a result)

OR I could just allow civilizations to go without when their civilization has already been included in the game somehow. This inability to have your own culture would never happen to a human player except in a few very rare possible circumstances so it should be an acceptable degree of 'flaw' for an option that represents little more than a patch for those that really don't like our design in the first place. I think, though, that I'm leaning more towards the above paragraph's method instead.

Honestly, all in all, this project sounds like less than a full weekend's worth of work. I might be able to get it done over the Christmas break along with some other projects. And I think its been needed long enough here that it could be worked on while the concept is fresh. Shouldn't take any work from you UNLESS there's a culture that needs to be rush included like the aforementioned Pirates. You know all the ins and outs of setting up a culture so I'd ask if you'd meet me that far. But we already have UUs for those (more than necessary actually) somewhere so that shouldn't be a big task should it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

There are actually a few more civs besides Pirate that do not have culture wonder yet. They are on my todo list but I was trying to fill in the ones we have before making a new set of culture wonders.

 

[Taxman66]

Having gone through this myself, I will say that it is a relatively hard concept for newbies to 'let go' and grasp the idea that starting country/flag != starting or automatic access to its associated culture.

Given that it would be easier to grasp if it was clearer in the starting options, giving the player a choice of only the base native cultures (i.e. European/African/Middle Eastern/etc...). Of course that would mean generic flags (and what about the unit's audio response?). Then with the ability to pick up multiple specific cultures as play goes on how would you assign which was the player's identifying one (so that the flag & unit audio response switch to). I guess you could make it like some sort of state religion choice.

*Shrug*
Maybe the best thing is just to do a better job informing the player as this is the first and one of the biggest changes from Vanilla Civ4/BTS play/assumptions. Perhaps a little extra verbage in the 'have fun' pop-up at the start of the game along the lines of:
"In this mod you can discover or capture multiple unique cultures and thus have access to their units, but also note you are not guaranteed to get the culture related with your choosen starting 'country'."

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are actually a few more civs besides Pirate that do not have culture wonder yet. They are on my todo list but I was trying to fill in the ones we have before making a new set of culture wonders.

Maybe they should be taken out then until we can get the corresponding cultures filled in. I know how 'the list' goes. Was hoping it was only the Pirates cuz we have a lot of material for them. Are the others any more difficult or do they all have corresponding UUs that simply need to be put in place?


Also... was thinking. About the Base Cultures (African/European etc...) you build in the beginning... Seems to me it would work better for our ideal here that if you aren't playing on this Vanilla option, then those should be tweaked a bit.

The suggestion would be to take them away from the Civ definition as a UB and base their build conditions on the following:
1) They may only be built in a city defined as a Capital (and if there isn't a tag for this then we could use OR prereqs to establish all the Capital and Secondary Capital buildings as being effective prereqs - needs one of them.)

2) They may only be built according to coordinate definitions similar to the definitions we used to set up animal spawns. This means if you start in an African region, you can build an African base culture, in a South American biome, a South American base culture etc...


On the upside, this would make the culture yet more a result of its environment and add support to the ability for many cultures to emerge. Getting African base culture kinda sucks when you're in the polar regions due to the unlikelihood of qualifying for a more specific culture building etc...

On the downside, it'd take a little effort so its not something I'm suggesting for a right away thing. Furthermore, this would pretty much undo all benefit from the Assimilation option without some additional extensive programming, but would provide a more peaceful means of attaining more base cultures by inviting one to plant a sub-capital wonder in a region they want the base culture from.

I suppose Assimilation could be made to make the culture wonders undestroyable in invasions and without it they automatically get removed from invaded cities (or disabled unless the city returns to its original owner...)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is a building flag that says it can only be built in a governmental centre eg capital, city with Forbidden Palace, city with Versilles etc. I can't remember at the moment but I have used it before for just this sort of purpose.