Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[Bartleby]

Congrats!

 

[Calis]

My apologies for bumping you down.
When I play my games, I am always going for #1 spot. But never intentionally to bump down a specific player.

 

[BlackBetsy]

My apologies for bumping you down.
When I play my games, I am always going for #1 spot. But never intentionally to bump down a specific player.

LOL no apologies necessary! I just had moved on from Warlord. But as noted above, it inspired me to try Warlord again and I got a #1 spot!

 

[BlackBetsy]

I think I'm going to move up the ladder to Monarch Diplo. Number of born content citizens is the same as Regent, which is a huge positive. Monarch AI might be a bit more helpful on research and they should have more gpt to trade. Downside is that they might fence me in a bit more. On Regent, the Persians never expanded beyond 3 cities, and I found that my own aggressive settlement can wall a civ off and claim huge territories.

On the other side, techs are more expensive at Monarch and having played Regent and gotten a 680 AD finish that could have been 630AD with perfect luck on the Big Picture, the 620 AD score that @bluejay put up is looking very, very impressive.

My *guess* is that a 500's score here is possible with: (1) AI doing at least 1 ancient age tech that I can trade for (Iron Working most likely); (2) Popped settler / SGL with CB or Mysticism; (3) good hut luck on techs; (3) perfect Big Picture luck (Theology); (4) AI doing 2 Medieval Age techs (Invention? Banking?); (5) SGL for Cope's; (6) 4 reachable luxes; (7) not surrounded by horrendous marshes/jungles.

Maybe I'll try to turn an early as possible (right after Education?) Medieval Golden Age with Colossus / Maus.

I'm also considering changing my worker building strategy. Right now, I am doing 1 worker build per city with random additional worker builds. I am now considering doing 1.5 per city by doing 2 worker initial builds in even-numbered cities. So 002 builds 2, then settler, 003 builds 1 then settler, 004 builds 2 then settler, etc. In practice, 003 is almost always my Colossus city so it's worker / Colossus. I tend to do better with these kind of heuristics; I never remember to set up a worker pump.

 

[tenny]

I'm also considering changing my worker building strategy. Right now, I am doing 1 worker build per city with random additional worker builds. I am now considering doing 1.5 per city by doing 2 worker initial builds in even-numbered cities. So 002 builds 2, then settler, 003 builds 1 then settler, 004 builds 2 then settler, etc. In practice, 003 is almost always my Colossus city so it's worker / Colossus. I tend to do better with these kind of heuristics; I never remember to set up a worker pump.

If I may add my two cents, I used to build a worker first, but then switched to using my food production and expansion rate as determinant of how many workers I build. Say if I get 1 citizen every 10 turns and 1 worker can get one tile worked in 10 turns, I get one worker. Considering that I am building mostly settlers in the beginning and every city center cannot be improved/is improved reduces the amount of workers I need in the beginning, and using that extra citizen to build early cities instead and increase food production really helps in the expansion phase. Basically founding a delayed city is the same as not building that city at all in the expansion phase. So it might be just 0.5 workers per city in the beginning. However, if my cities are just there to pop settlers, I might need even less since there might be no need for additional mines, and I focus only on roads to increase commerce, but this means that even less workers are needed.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Say if I get 1 citizen every 10 turns and 1 worker can get one tile worked in 10 turns, I get one worker.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this. Let's say there is a new town with 2 excess food that produces a worker every 10 turns with 1 shield per turn and grows in 10 turns. I typically would build a worker, and when the worker finishes, it would be size 1. The worker could then irrigate & road a tile in 8 turns...assuming 1 turn to move to the tile, 3 turns to road and 4 turns to irrigate. As a result, the city is going to be +3 food and grow every 7 turns (or every 4 turns with a granary/Pyramids). I can then irrigate / road another tile in another 8 turns and the city will be +4, growing every 5 turns (or 3 with granary/Pyramids). This assumes 2 available grasslands & being out of despotism.

In my example, the city is going to create 1 new citizen every 3 turns with the Pyramids after the worker irrigates / roads 2 tiles, what do you do with worker creation then?

 

[tenny]

In my example, the city is going to create 1 new citizen every 3 turns with the Pyramids after the worker irrigates / roads 2 tiles, what do you do with worker creation then?

If the city would grow 1 citizen within 3 turns, I would get so many workers that I would have worked 1 tile evey 3 turns.
So when we assume all tiles would be grassland and non-industrial civ, each tile would need about 10 (move+road+mine) worker turns to be worked, so that would be about 3-4 workers to do it in 3 turns.

 

[BlackBetsy]

It took a long time to get a game going for Large Monarch Diplo. A lot of times, I wasn't getting an early settler/city. And getting an SGL obviously was rare as well. Finally, on attempt 15, got an SGL on the *third* tech I researched. I kept going because the map is as wide open as I've ever had - I think I could get to 120 cities in the expansion phase before even filling out the space I have. 5 luxes as well.

Entered Medieval Age in 1300 BC when I popped Construction from a hut. Had to hold back Philo for something like 8 turns to pop Code of Laws. Didn't get another SGL until Magnetism, by which time Newton's was basically already done; I'll save it for Sci Tech.

I triggered Golden Age midway through the Middle Ages. It helped build Cope but I didn't get 4 turns until later in the Golden Age.

Good luck at Big Picture with Invention, but Theology was 26 turns to start the Medieval Age. Grrrr.

I'm going to hit the Industrial Age in 280 AD. If I can do 4 turns and get good Big Picture luck (40% chance), I can finish @680AD, which would be #2. But there is a lot of luck between now and then, and I'm not sure I will be able to 4 turn the early Industrial techs. I'm 715 beakers with 10 scientists @90% science. I need to pump that up to 1067 per turn to 4 turn Industrialization. Hooking up the 5th lux should allow me to bring myself up to 100% science; I should be able to find maybe 60 scientists, so I'm hopeful that gets me there.

I think an SGL with Mysticism would have helped a few turns; better hut luck around Philo saves me another 5-6 turns. I did pop a lot of warriors instead of techs. So @bluejay's 630 AD #1 is possible to be beaten, but it requires quite a bit of luck.

I only have 3 turns to play with here, so Nationalism, Ironclads or Sanitation basically sinks me regardless of my research speed.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Piece of luck #1 complete - pulled Industrialization.
Piece of hard work #1 complete - reduced the Corporation to 4 turns. Newton's will finish in the next 2 turns, further juicing my research. Getting the 5th luxury will be important; getting 100% research should allow 4 turn on Electricity.

Update: I couldn't 4 turn Electricity - I can barely 5 turn it. So I'll lose a turn right there. I'll do SciMeth in 4 turns next but I've got 9 turns to figure out how to get to 100% on science and get another 150 beakers.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Got Replaceable Parts down to 4 turns, which means that Steel, Mass Prod, and Motorized Transportation are all 4 turns as well. That leaves me with Combustion, Refining & Flight to conquer.

Right now, I'm at 1281 beakers per turn at 100%. Steel, Rep Parts, Steel, Mass Prod and Motorized are 4977 beakers. Those are covered.

Combustion is 5,688, Refining is 5,688 and Flight is 6400. So I need to generate another 141 beakers per turn to take care of Combustion/Refining. I am really stretched out right now, and getting those beakers up in 4 turns isn't going to be easy.

I'm now best case 690 AD, so I've only got 1 turn to give - that is the 5th turn for Flight. If I tie at 710, I have to win on points. But based on bluejay's win save population (556) to my pop (439), I lose any ties.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Got Refining / Combustion down to 4 turns and only had to go through 58 of my 88 cities to tweak science to get there. Flight is so big - 1,600 beakers per turn 1,422 - that it makes me think it'll really be difficult to squeeze it out but at least I have 16 turns of irrigating everything in the hinterlands to get there.

But even if I get Flight in 5 turns, that's the turn I have to spare.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Got Flight down to 4 turns, it actually wasn't difficult - huge railroad and irrigation boom in population drove a lot of beakers per turn. Now just need to pull off successful Big Picture; Palace pre-build is perfectly set up.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Whew....Big Picture did NOT go well. Only Koreans got Fission and they wouldn't give it up for anything. Wound up navigating to city screens to create taxmen for trading gpt, but *I don't know how to get back to the foreign advisor screen from the city screens during the Big Picture break ins!!!* I didn't go to the Science Advisor screen during my first break-in, so I got a second chance to break in when I was picking my new tech to research. Luckily, I pulled Fission and was still able to flip the Palace to the UN.

.....but I hadn't declared war against the #2. In fact, I wasn't sure who the #2 was (I played this really badly). The build sequence completed and the UN Vote still went heavily in my favor - two votes for Theodora (I didn't realize she was in second place) and the rest for me. Whew.

If accepted, #2 on the Large Monarch Diplo charts. Moves my best Monarch up from 3 to 2. Emperor is my worst placement, #4.

I thought the Monarch AI would do more research for me, and I left Banking up to them after giving them Education. They never did save me the 4 turns on Banking though. Gilgamesh declared war and took my silks city in one turn maybe 15 turns before the end of the game, but the war happiness helped prevent me from having to turn the lux slider back on and I took the city back in 1 turn and held it the rest of the game.

All other things being equal, this didn't play out much different than the Regent game, other than the techs were much more expensive and I had a much harder time 4 turning in the Medieval Age.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Crazy great Pangaea for me....I basically had no competition for a wide portion of it with the AI grouped together in two different upper barbells. My core was nearly dead center in the bottom part of my empire - meaning I had very good distant corruption effects. I blocked expansion by the AI as early as I could with sending out settlers very far to build frontier walled / well defended towns.

 

[Spoonwood]

Wound up navigating to city screens to create taxmen for trading gpt, but *I don't know how to get back to the foreign advisor screen from the city screens during the Big Picture break ins!!!*

I don't think it possible to switch back to the foreign advisor screen after getting to a city screen.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I don't think it possible to switch back to the foreign advisor screen after getting to a city screen.

Thanks. I have been driving myself crazy every time it happens thinking that I'm missing some piece of basic navigation at that point. What I DID learn is that if you DO NOT go to the Science Advisor screen, you will get a second shot at "Big Picture" when you select your next tech. So the sequence is "Big Picture" - Foreign Advisor trading - city screens to change people to taxmen - "X" out when you have enough taxmen, and then break back in to the Big Picture / Foreign Advisor when your Science Advisor asks you what to research next, which happens before production.

If you go to the Science Advisor screen during the first Big Picture, it will force you to select a tech and you won't get a second chance to break in.

 

[Spoonwood]

So the sequence is "Big Picture" - Foreign Advisor trading - city screens to change people to taxmen - "X" out when you have enough taxmen, and then break back in to the Big Picture / Foreign Advisor when your Science Advisor asks you what to research next, which happens before production.

@superslug is what BlackBetsy proposes legal?

I almost spoke up in my previous message about lifting citizens off of tiles. Thinking on this more:

You got science from citizens working the tiles when you researched the technology. Now those same citizens turn into tax collectors. Your empire won't get tax credit from them on the same turn your empire finished researching that technology. You won't gain more gold. But, the citizens will get used in two different ways for science production and then for trading gold per turn for technology.

The rules say:

"Breaking into the build sequence using 'Big Picture' ...

During this time, you may also pull citizens off of tiles, but you may not rearrange them. Any citizens pulled off tiles may be made Scientists and Taxmen, or Entertainers (if needed). This may only be done to prevent rioting (luxury deal ends suddenly, etc) or to prevent a prebuild from completing early."

Maybe though, I just remember details like this from the rules.

I feel sure that if you learn a technology, then use the Big Picture, and then change the science slider to 0% and tax slider to 0%, thus having 100% taxes, then doing any deals ends up legal. Because the rules don't say anything about changing the sliders when using the "What's the Big Picture?".

 

[BlackBetsy]

@superslug is what BlackBetsy proposes legal?

I almost spoke up in my previous message about lifting citizens off of tiles. Thinking on this more:

You got science from citizens working the tiles when you researched the technology. Now those same citizens turn into tax collectors. Your empire won't get tax credit from them on the same turn your empire finished researching that technology. You won't gain more gold. But, the citizens will get used in two different ways for science production and then for trading gold per turn for technology.

The rules say:

"Breaking into the build sequence using 'Big Picture' ...

During this time, you may also pull citizens off of tiles, but you may not rearrange them. Any citizens pulled off tiles may be made Scientists and Taxmen, or Entertainers (if needed). This may only be done to prevent rioting (luxury deal ends suddenly, etc) or to prevent a prebuild from completing early."

Maybe though, I just remember details like this from the rules.

I feel sure that if you learn a technology, then use the Big Picture, and then change the science slider to 0% and tax slider to 0%, thus having 100% taxes, then doing any deals ends up legal. Because the rules don't say anything about changing the sliders when using the "What's the Big Picture?".

I had thought about that. In my case it was irrelevant because as I noted, I got Fission, the taxmen never got used either for trade or income. The game was won.

But I think the rule is intended to prevent you from getting science + production / taxes (or happy faces) on the inter-turn. In other words, double-dipping to get beakers and tax/production/happiness. In the specific case of breaking into the Big Picture for trading for a tech, if you did use the tax men to raise the *ability* to trade for a tech, and then re-set them to work tiles, you would not be violating the rules (unless you were doing deficit trading). It's no different than using the slider to make a trade because the AI won't take 50 gpt when you have a -18 gpt income at 90% science but they will take 50 gpt when you have +300 gpt income at 100% [fixed typo in this sentence].

When you set up the pillage trade, you probably, during your turn, switch citizens to taxmen to create temporary + gpt and switch them back to tile after you complete the pillage trade. It's the same thing.

If you broke into the Big Picture and used the taxmen / increased production, that is the violation, is how I read it.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Also, note that in the screenshot above, I've got +974 gold per turn but 0 gold in my account because the game ended and no tax revenue from the collection of taxes was deposited into my account after I broke into the Big Picture. I had, I believe, something like 2000 gold in my account going into the Big Picture, which I traded away in the Big Picture for Rocketry, which I then tried to trade for Fission. If switching to a 100% tax rate or hiring tax men actually affected the inter-turn, I would have had +974 gold in my account at the time of victory. Which I think proves that it doesn't actually change the game.

 

[Spoonwood]

In the specific case of breaking into the Big Picture for trading for a tech, if you did use the tax men to raise the *ability* to trade for a tech, and then re-set them to work tiles, you would not be violating the rules (unless you were doing deficit trading).

I don't know. I end up thinking about lifting a citizen off of a tile who was unhappy, and then becoming a content specialist (specialists count towards score the same amount as content citizens working tiles). Do we have a score difference between the two? When is score calculated? If there exists a difference in score, there exists some difference here, even for non-histographic games, since score serves as the tie-breaker if two entries have the same finish date. But, maybe it's not big enough to disqualify any entries from getting on the tables (*crosses fingers*).

When you set up the pillage trade, you probably, during your turn, switch citizens to taxmen to create temporary + gpt and switch them back to tile after you complete the pillage trade.

I think most turns when I've used pillage trade, I haven't switched citizens to taxmen. So, I think I have grounds to deny this 'probably' statement. Because I have enough gpt flowing from the AIs (or believe I soon will or can get gpt) that I've often found that I don't need to do that. However, I definitely have used temporary taxmen in despotism many times. Also, I've used them later sometimes when in Republic.

But, you did say when I set up the pillage trade. Actually, the first turn of a game where pillage trade has gotten setup, such a probably statement does seem likely to hold true.

Yes, both involve rearrangement of citizens on tiles to specialists. However, lifting citizens off of tiles and changing them to taxmen and then putting all of them back on tiles does not change your score, unless you change them to higher commerce tiles sufficient to change some citizen from unhappy to happy. But either way, all changes of citizens during your turn qualify as legal. Or at least I've always understood them as legal.

Testing the score with inter-turn changes.

2950 BC - Score of 147. The Maya will learn Warrior Code on the next turn. They only have 1 city with a happy citizen, unhappy citizen, and 1 tax collector. Without changing anything in the inter-turn:

2900 BC A - Score of 149.

Changing the unhappy citizen to a scientist, well... now the city will shrink also:

2900 BC B - Score of 149.

Going back to a previous save and so the city has more food in the box when Warrior Code gets learned. The arrangement of citizens has a happy, content, and unhappy citizen.

2950 BC - 147.

2900 BC A - 149 (no use of interturn mechanics).

2900 BC B - Changing the unhappy citizen to a content specialist using "what's the big picture?". Score of 150! Here, the citizen has gotten counted for commerce as an unhappy citizen, then got counted for score as a taxman.

So, score gets calculated after commerce.