Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[BlackBetsy]

Played a deep game w/o a settler or early SGL on Tiny Emperor and research pace isn't what I needed. AI will do some Ancient Age techs, but only got me Invention 1 turn before I was going to complete it, and Banking 2 turns before I was going to complete it....and I held off researching it because I thought the AI would. 3 AI Industrial Age Big Picture a little bit of a mess since one got Nationalism and the one I trade 200 gpt for Steam Power immediately retraded the GPT for Nationalism, so I couldn't get it back. Industrial Age wasn't until 460 AD, which meant best case for Modern Age was 860. I was in Golden Age, with a Colossus / Cope / Newton city close to cap, but Electricity was still 7 turns.

Thinking about whether conquest of nearest neighbor might be a better strategy....

 

[BlackBetsy]

Now that I think about it, I do wonder if the second big picture break in is *only* possible if you are forced to pick a tech in the original break-in, and then you get that tech as a free tech. So it might be the case that I got a second Big Picture opportunity because I originally set my researched tech as Fission, then got it. Which would be a level of luck that I hadn't even thought about.

I have determined how this can be done on a repeatable basis without lucking out that you get the free tech you wanted. Again, if you re-set taxmen to their original tiles, there is no effect on your game score and I believe it is within the HOF rules.

(1) When you go to the Big Picture, you are going to be asked to set a tech. It doesn't matter what you pick, but pick a starting tech you will trade for.

(2) Go to the Foreign Advisor Screen, trade for the tech you selected (if you can't get the one you selected, but can get another, before you close the deal, go to the Science Advisor and select the one you can trade for then go back to Foreign Advisor and then acquire the tech). E.g., set your tech to Medicine at first, then acquire Medicine without going back to the Science Advisor.

(3) Go to the Domestic Advisor and go to a city. Use the next city arrows to get to the cities, change citizens to taxmen to raise gpt for the tech you want to acquire.

(4) Close out of a city. Since you've acquired your target tech, the Science Advisor is going to ask you what to research, and you can use the Big Picture again.

(5) Go to the Foreign Advisor screen, trade for the tech you want using the new gpt from the temporary taxmen.

(6) Navigate to the Domestic Advisor screen, and then switch the citizens back to working tiles (or scientists or entertainers if you would like).

Once you close out, only then do you move to the production phase and score is calculated.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Had a great map with 2 close luxes, great rivers, good Colossus city location and 3 close goody huts and all three had maps. Sigh.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Played 54 Tiny Emperor SS maps with the Russians through determination of whether I popped a settler or not. The results were 16 popped settlers and 9 popped cities, which based on my math above, was probably about the right luck ... but I think I popped 3 huts several times and the third one was a settler or city, maybe making my luck a little bit poorer.

Now I've got 25 shots at an SGL, basically, to see if I want to play deeper.

I've got 250 Sumerian maps ready where I don't have Barb huts and it's SGL hunting only.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Made it through 10 of the 25 Popped Settler maps before I got an SGL with Mysticism. The map, however, is pretty bad, too many plains and not enough grasslands, only 3 luxes. The map pretty much requires a war with the Ottomans to clear out territory and build up my civ. The Germans have a chokehold on a peninsula; I could go east and try to beat them. The Persians took a couple of good food spots on my side of the Pangaea, disconnected from their (east) side of the Pangaea. My cap is on the north western edge of the Pangaea and I have bad distance corruption - my 4th, 5th, and 6th cities are what would be on the second ring of cities on a normal map since the north and west of the cap is ocean.

Right now, in the middle of a Golden Age and am 4-turning late Medieval techs @70 bc. My Golden Age will finish right before the end of the Medieval Age, so I won't be able to 4 turn at the beginning of the Industrial Age. Still, I have 119 turns to finish the 4 medieval techs and the Industrial Age and Modern Age. At Emperor, using the ToE for Modern Age techs is a little dicey but I can try. With only 3 AI, chances of min-researching the Industrial Age is low and impossible in the Modern Age.

All other things being equal, the food bonus of the Sumerians plus an early SGL is going to be superior, I think, at the Tiny Emperor map since the extra units of Emperor AI pop too many huts. Emperor AI did some Ancient Age research for me, but only cut 1 turn off of Invention.

Lucky SGL with Chemistry that allowed me to rush Cope in Colossus city right as I was about to start it. But plains around it means its a slow grower and I don't have any reasonable worker pumps because of bad core territory + distance corruption to the flood plains in my far south.

 

[Spoonwood]

Note that @Lord_Emsworth has the top Deity tiny SS spot with a 1270 AD finish. But, Jarred's Demigod game launched in 1090 AD, suggesting that his finish isn't all that strong. Ignas's Sid launch date is also a turn faster than Lord_Emsworth's.

We actually had a tiny SS gauntlet on Deity a while back, and I left notes to having tried it five times (without using trade route pillaging) and got attacked each time (I didn't get completely conquered as I recall, I just gave up on the maps).

Note also that the Tiny Emperor SS finish is with Persia, not Sumeria. Commercial could also possibly work as a strong enough trait for this, so Greece maybe.

Currently, your best Deity entry is a #3, Tiny maps it's a #2, and spaceship you have a #3.

#3 on standard Demigod SS is a finish of 1295 AD by Tone. It doesn't have a Pyramids SGL. I think I got a Pyramids SGL for the faster finish Standard Demigod SS game on Writing, by prioritizing Alphabet, maybe trading for some of it, and then getting to Writing first (no huts).

Oh, I see now why you picked Emperor. Your best position is a #4. Huge Emperor 20k has a 1525 AD by @AutomatedTeller, while the Monarch Huge table has 5 entries at or below 1455. Small 100k has a finish of 1130 AD, while Monarch's best is 780 AD. Standard Emperor 100k also has a similar gap. Anyways, good luck!

 

[BlackBetsy]

Oh, I see now why you picked Emperor. Your best position is a #4. Huge Emperor 20k has a 1525 AD by @AutomatedTeller, while the Monarch Huge table has 5 entries at or below 1455. Small 100k has a finish of 1130 AD, while Monarch's best is 780 AD. Standard Emperor 100k also has a similar gap. Anyways, good luck!

I also need a better 20k, so that's going to be a target as well.

I'm curious about the Huge Diplo maps; I could use a #1 Huge. I *think* the 670 AD on Huge Chieftain Diplo can be beaten but not 100% sure. Huts don't mean much after you've gotten all the Ancient Age techs. I did Large Warlord Diplo @ 580 AD; tech costs 25% more on Huge even though there are 50% more tiles, and Chieftain is what, 20:12 to Warlord in costs...so that is 67% cheaper?

I think with the Pyramids, Huge Chieftain Diplo at 670 AD is very beatable.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Persian sneak attack did me in; I HAVE to remember not to do 20 turn alliances. 1010 AD and I haven't even hit the Modern Age. Had decent momentum into the Industrial Age and was improving science enough to be able to hit 1270 at 90% science. But Persian war and a lot of war weariness (they took 2 cities 1st turn, and 1 city got traded back and forth 3 times) did me in. May play it out just to play the space race, but sheesh.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Persians sneak attacked, then Ottomans sneak attacked, and then the Germans. Beat the crap out of them in response (the Ottomans did not survive), but it tanked my date and....because I settled some German lands I accidently triggered Domination victory. Oh well.

Emperor AI are much more willing to take you on even with defended border cities and even when they are Gracious. It's a real step change from Monarch that I need to figure out. AI are set to Least Aggressive

 

[BlackBetsy]

Very deep into a game that will be no better than #4, finishing in the mid-1300's presumably (1340 AD likely), nearly 20 turns slower than I wanted.

Here's the thing. I don't know where I went wrong this game. The Ancient Age went very well and I had 3 luxes connected very quickly since 2 were within a few tiles of my capital and 1 just another 5-6 tiles away. Eventually I had 5 native luxes. Ran 10% lux slider most of the game, sometimes 20% early. Cap was a 4 turn settler pump with 2 irrigated grassland cows on river tiles.

Republic in the mid-1000's BC, that went well. We got Colossus a little slower than I would like in the 700's BC and the city wasn't on a river and a bit corrupt. Not optimal. The AI researched or popped The Wheel, Iron Working, Map Making and Construction for us (not Poly, though, very surprising). I popped Alphabet which was great for trading early. SGL with Writing as 3rd tech in mid 2000's bc. Medieval Age right around 1000 BC, which wasn't bad at all. I got very early culture flips from the Ottomans that boosted me nicely. I wound up flipping 4 Ottoman cities on culture, and 1 Persian. One of my border towns squeezed in between German cities flipped in the Industrial Age, but then flipped back in the Modern Age. Overall, I think 43 cities with hand built + flips. That's a pretty good number for a Tiny Emperor map and I did have concerns about the domination limit.

Big Picture got us Engineering and Monotheism and luckily pulled Theology. AI researched Feudalism for me while I went Education / Astronomy. Burdened by unit costs (had to defend against Emperor AI along a very long front), Education was 15 turns. Astronomy was still 10, this was slow. Eventually I built Maus in the cap to trigger the Golden Age which helped but not much. Most of the late Medieval Age techs were still taking 5 turns.

Still, I got tech down to 4 turns at the end of the Medieval Age and had 117 turns for the last 4 Medieval techs + Industrial Age + Modern Age. Big Picture Industrial Age was expensive, wound up -75 gpt trading for Steam Power and Medicine, because I couldn't get my gpt back with Industrialization because 1 of the AI pulled Nationalism and the other two bought it. That held me back at the beginning of the Industrial Age (war wasn't an realistic option to get my gpt back). Electricity was 8 turns at a huge loss, Corporation was still 6 turns. Those numbers, unfortunately, held most of the Industrial Age - it took me 6 turns most of the Industrial Age, chewing up turns I wouldn't be able to afford in the Modern Age. In the Modern Age, I didn't have enough capital to trade for anything (they all had Nationalism already), so I pulled Fission, which was a duplicate of an AI, and only was able to trade for Ecology once I researched Computers over 8 (!) turns. Built the Internet quickly enough, but still 6 turning Modern techs afterwards, and only got that down to 5 turns with some micromanaging + SETI in cap.

15 turns short is a LOT of turns in a game where I got most things to go right. No surprise AI wars against me because I defended the borders pretty well and kept them happy through trades.

Maybe the Colossus coming late cost me 3-4 turns of research. Had I gotten an SGL for Cope, that might have pushed me up 2-3 turns. Had the AI researched Poly like I expected, that would have been 4. Jungle around my cap left me working unimproved (but river) tiles, probably cost me a bit. I really don't know how I could have improved more other than micromanaging specialists a bit earlier, I guess. More irrigation, less mining. More workers, as always. I was able to buy a worker early, but that's it.

Starting to think it's just going to be a switch to Sumeria or Persia (for earlier, faster roads) that will make the difference. But really, 1270 AD for Tiny Emperor SS is MUCH better of a date than I originally thought. I really expect 1 deep play would get me the #2 spot.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Another deep attempt with Russia (very next map got another SGL right around 2400 BC with Writing) going about the same, maybe a bit slower. This map I've only got 30 cities in the early Industrial Age @500 AD or so with 6 turn research. Only 2 native luxes - had to steal territory for 2 more, and conquered a German city for the 5th. The map is really awful - a few choke points and just not a lot of room for me to get to 45 cities. I'm actually surprised that I didn't do better on the previous map with more cities and room.

Republic at 1300 BC, Medieval Age right about 1000 BC. Got good research from the AI - Iron Working (reliable), Polytheism, Map Making, HBR. Big Picture Medieval was lucky inasmuch as I traded for Mono and Engineering (Emperor AI want much more - Republic isn't enough) and pulled Theology and then traded back for Feudalism later. Education was a reasonable 12 turns to start the Medieval Age and I triggered a Golden Age with Maus maybe halfway through.

Colossus was a bit earlier this time - maybe 850 BC? City was good with a river, but light on food and a little corrupt for my tastes. I wound up building Cope and Newton in cap (Newton with SGL). Spent some resources building a 6 treb 4 swordsman army, which was enough to take 3 border German towns including Leipzig and Berlin, and was able to take the German lux.

I had to build quite a few Aqueducts, and the few rivers around my core probably are a big reason for the slower research. Not sure I will finish this or just move on. About 1/2 way through my Russian popped settler/city maps.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I'm trying to develop "waypoints" to determine how well a science game is going. There are some obvious ones, such as date you enter eras, but I also think there are some other non-obvious ones.

(1) turn on which you hit 20 cities. I feel like this date is a pretty good indication of how well your expansion is going. I very much want to hit 20 cities by 1000 bc; I rarely do.

(2) number of turns to complete first Medieval tech (based on maximum sustainable research rate). Under 10 turns means you have very good research momentum.

(3) number of turns to finish Electricity (based on maximum sustainable research rate). 6 turns seems to be a dividing line. If you can 6 turn it, you are probably doing very well since you are going to get a whole bunch of beakers from citizen expansion due to Steam Power. 7+ turns means you are behind/ have a lot of work to do.

(4) When do you hit 500, 1000 beakers per turn? Based on map size, these can be critical waypoints for key techs.

I'm going to try to start tracking these a little more closely.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Second submission was 1390, so ultimately it will drop off when I can hit a #2. But the time of the Russians is ending; just a couple of maps left before I flip to Sumeria.

 

[BlackBetsy]

First deep play with the Sumerians and .... its interesting. I had a SGL with Writing. And then something else, and then something else, and then something else. Rushed Pyramids, Cope, Maus, Newton's so far, with 1 SGL waiting for SETI or the Internet.

In terms of 20 cities, was only there in 665. But Colossus was done in 1225.

Industrial Age in 90 AD, which is many turns ahead of previous attempts. Electricity at 6 turns at 90%...so that meets my estimate of "not bad" from a way point standpoint. Theology was 7 turns for the Medieval Age.

I've got 111 turns for the Industrial Age and Modern Age to finish @ 1260, I pulled Industrialization after having traded only for Steam Power, so I'll need to research Medicine since 2 of the 3 AI got Nationalism. Had to trade 180 gpt away for Steam but immediately got 170 gpt back for Industrialization, which was very good especially since it came from a different AI that had traded Nationalism for Steam + gpt.

5th native lux is about to be hooked and I've got a real chance at culture-stealing a 6th. Could easily get my lux down to 0% with that; if the dumb AI will get Music Theory for me I'll sure be at 0%.

AI are small enough that I might be able to old ToE for the Modern Age even at Emperor. That would be tremendous.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Going to do Industrial Age in 62 turns and hit the Modern Age in 790 AD, leaving me 49 turns for the Modern Age. 62 is normally pretty slow for a science game, but with Tiny, I didn't get Medicine and needed to research it, and hand-researching Atomic Theory and Electronics added 15 turns, so I was probably only 7 turns off of optimal. I think that's pretty good. We have ToE teed up, and an SGL for Computers as soon as we hit the Modern Age. Best case scenario is that we enter the Modern Age with 6 free required techs, worst case 3. If it's 6 free techs, then I have a pretty good shot at a 1100 or so finish; if it's 3 free techs, probably mid 1100's.

@Calis 900 AD finish is pretty much untouchable. This game has gone very well for me; maybe a slightly more food-heavy core would have helped but not 20 turns better to beat Calis. Surely the Industrious trait has a lot to do with that.

Update: got 5 of 6 possible free techs. Traded for Computers, pulled Miniaturization as free tech (lucky), then got Rocketry and Space Flight from ToE and traded Rocketry for Ecology. So #2 spot is looking really good at this point.

 

[Spoonwood]

Calis had about 35% of the territory on the map countable towards the domination limit by just settling territory and cultural expansions. The Pyramids completed in 2850 BC with an SGL appearing in 3000 BC (maybe he had a settler timed to finish first and didn't want to waste shields on a sooner Pyramids build?). The golden age doesn't come until 50 AD with the completion of Newton's, which to me sounds less optimal than an early Republic golden age triggered by immortals... unless the war leads to an AI learning something on the lower part of the tech tree too late (after Banking and Astronomy get finished). Anyways, I don't think I'll try and top 900 AD spaceship on Emperor, and arguably I'm armchair theorizing here.

I'm now starting to wonder also if industrious + scientific might be a better combination than agricultural + scientific on upper levels. Well, if we only get one map at random, I think agricultural has the advantage. But, if we're looking at the maps with the more optimal starting positions, though initially slower, industrious catches up quicker and then can have better roaded paths towards earlier city founding dates (I haven't compared city founding dates between say a Persia and Sumeria entry). Agricultural can use more scientists eventually, but industrious can get the rail boost in effect more quickly.

Perhaps also, Sumeria as an AI research helper ends up a little better than Persia or The Ottomans.

Also, I like seeing non-agricultural tribes at the top of tables where it makes sense. I mean, there exist many people who say agricultural is the best trait. But then it's like "no, if you are playing for spaceship, 20k, or diplomatic not necessarily. The only clear cases where agricultural outshines everything else is 100k and histographic, and you aren't playing those victory conditions anyways." Also... 100k is wrong there, when I remember Babylonian finish dates... especially that Tiny Chieftain one by ignas.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I am right around 1000 AD and going to save and do some Saturday stuff but I *think* 1130AD or 1140AD is going to be our date. 23-24 turns behind @Calis' #1, which I am more convinced is a remarkable achievement. 16-17 turns in front of the current #2, which is still substantial.

Edit - If its 1130 AD, then its 34 turns for the Modern Age, which I consider pretty good @ Tiny/Emperor, less than 5 turns per tech (I got 5 free techs). 96 turns from start of Industrial Age to Launch. Slightly better luck on Big Picture throughout saves me 9 turns.

My goal is to have a #1 or #2 in all categories, and I've got a #3 in Standard, Deity and 20k. @Spoonwood owns the #1 and #2 Standard Deity 20k spots with outstanding dates, so I don't think I'll touch that.

A #1 or #2 spot for Standard Regent and Monarch Diplo seem possible. There are good Deity options for a #2 spot.

Cultural 20k #2 spot, well, that's going to be the Mount Everest of the Quartermaster climb.

Eventually, I'm going to have to do another Histographic game at a higher level to get a good score. I would probably need a 40k+ score which is going to require a Huge map. *Possibly* I go for Demigod level. I only pulled 22k out of Deity level several months ago on a Large map.

 

[Bartleby]

I want to do another Histo game too. I gave up on a couple of deity runs years ago, one became a conquest and one ended as domination.

 

[Spoonwood]

@Spoonwood owns the #1 and #2 Standard Deity 20k spots with outstanding dates, so I don't think I'll touch that.

Those were not my first games on Standard Deity 20k I think. I believe I had high position on some of those Deity or Demigod tables before the current entries that you see. At the very least, I'm sure that I had some upper level 20k games of my own which I took off the tables, after looking a little more, and refining my approach. I also got more confident about spawning a leader, since I learned/developed the capital landing strategy on an archipelago 80% map.

But still, after that I remember some attempts on Sid which looked like great starts. Then one of my deliberately weaker research opponents decided to land on my shores early, and I quit. We even tried a Sid succession 20k game on an archipelago map and tried again on another map, but again got invaded.

Perhaps most surprising on those tables is that the #2 Sid 20k game is only 17 turns behind the #1 map, but got the #2 game got played on a 60% pangea map instead of an 80% archipelago map. I did not expect to end up that close to Kuningas for my pangea game (I also didn't build one wonder).

Huge Deity 20k might be the weakest of tables, but I think it's kind of different. I don't think I prebuilt with Carthage. I don't recall that game at all. I do remember though that after say a curragh and settler, or soon after, with a strong enough map, it ended up possible to not run out of builds in the capital. But, that seemed more difficult if not impossible on a Huge map during the ancient age, due to increased tech cost. Trying for The Republic slingshot also struck me as more risky. And 8 opponents as the minimum implies someone as scientific, commercial, seafaring, or industrious I believe. That said, I don't think an optimum map would need to use the 2nd city with palace prebuilding on a Huge Deity map, though such is the more sounder strategy for sure even if slower in some exceptional cases.

Most of the Sid games didn't have the full, self-researched Republic slingshot, though the 1750 Large map did, if I recall correctly. I had extra commerce somehow, and it worked. I think maybe one other time I pulled off the Philosophy, trade for Code of Laws shot, take Republic slingshot, but I also recall just taking Monarchy as a free tech, and then later revolting another time to Republic.

Also, I would hope that you feel free to just submit any game that will chart instead of giving up on a map for some reason.

I remember watching Soren Johnson's talk and him saying that their vision was that the human player win the game on the last few turns. With that in mind perhaps the greatest 20k game is Elear's 2045 AD finish on Tiny Sid with The Byzantines. I haven't looked at it, but as great as number 1 positions may feel, I believe that players who finish later on weaker food and production maps near their starting tiles may be the stronger players.

Anyways, mapfinder generated starts may be the most fun to play for you, so do as you will in the end.

 

[BlackBetsy]

1130 AD it was....minimap on victory screen:

My core is in the Northeast quadrant; it is not on a separate island, there were just three connective pieces meaning there was a pretty big freshwater coast on both sides. Another chokepoint separated me from the Ottomans, and I aggressively too the middle of the pangaea, blocking the Persians and Russians early and grabbing 3 luxes. I even flipped Pasagardae from the Persians in the Industrial Age, although that annoying Ottoman city on my far eastern peninsula never did flip.

My cap was in the north of the Northeast quadrant, just above the black dot that was another freshwater source. Colossus/Cope/Newton/SETI city was the city on the northern coast at the top of that triangle. There was a lot of desert in the core that made early development / settler creation slow. The middle territory was tons of swamps and marshes but enough grassland to be food rich.

At the end, I counted 7 SGLs, which rushed Pyramids, Cope, Maus, Newton, JS Bach, SETI, and the Internet. Only really the Pyramids and Cope SGLs were important; had builds going on all the others so maybe saved a few turns. Built Shakes in the science city (002) and absolutely maxxed it out. It didn't have any luxes w/in its borders so was just shy of 500 beakers per turn on max. That was itself about 45% of my science from commerce.

Almost all "natural expansion" (no wars, just the Pasagardae flip), we held 46% of the territory.

Things went pretty close to optimally, especially with the SGL. Medieval Age Big Picture yielded all three techs for the AI, Theology for me. Industrial Age got me Industrialization after I only could trade for Steam Power - AI did not get Medicine, so that wasn't optimal. 5 of 6 free techs possible in the Modern Age, including pulling Miniaturization as free tech. So I missed only 2 techs from 3 AI on Tiny plus got perfect luck on getting unique / second level techs. Perfect perfect luck on Big Picture saves 9 turns, so maybe 1040 AD. Even that is a colossal 14 turns behind Calis. I won't be taking a run at #1.