Blind leading the blind *Sponsered by: Bad decisions and generally bad planning*

[soul_warrior]

lurker's comment:
just clarifing that im very vigilantly lurking this.
my lack of comment is due to the most excellent advice of the honourable Whomp and the distiguised eldar, not forgeting our most learned bede.

 

[Daghdha]

did you spot any horses nearby?

yes, NE of Daghdavorsk.
@Whomp
Don't know what HBR means .
1) Can I afford it? Thought I could but knowing would've been better. Was thinking wrong that I was going to get a rare tech which others would be willing to pay for. Thing is they don't have much money or other techs so when deal was done I realized no one had anything good to offer for it. Bad planning! I also accepted 10gpt without counting for my changed slider. When it was readjusted I saw research had to go down to get even net.
2) Do I need it? Well knowing where horses are is good when it's time to settle but it wasn't really so I guess not. In my mind I thought like "if I can get this before Mongols, China & Rome I'll be ahead and that's good, and dealing with Ragnar makes him happy and gpt's makes him not declaring for 20 turns" so that's my reason for doing it.
3) Can it be traded with profit? I thought so, and maybe it will, but I see it was sloppy/stupid planning.

A hard part in trading is "knowing" what a tech will be worth after a deal is done because it changes in value when traded.
Should I always try to get some G's thrown in when selling a tech?

Anyways, thanks for feedback. I'll work on your advice

edit: Yes, I often forget to place new citizen on best tile when city grows. I check that when city produces something but will change that lazy habit asap. Keep asking me about this every now and then or just send a mailbomb if I do it again

 

[Tatran]

I don't like the Mongol company near our main cities.
If they want war they have to march through our
territory.So some better defenders or attackers
will be needed.My experience from the German
Emperor game,the Mongols were constant at war
with their neighbours.

 

[soul_warrior]

yes, NE of Daghdavorsk.
@Whomp
Don't know what HBR means .

3 words - Horse, Back and Riding

and

Spoiler :

i do think you need HBR right now. those horsemen will fight like hell, and also be Cossacks some day.
keep minding to build only in Rax'd cities

 

[BlackJAC]

Tatran, you're up next and I'm sure no one would mind if you took 2 or 3 extra turns.

Somehow i've got my doubts whether Shadow-Walker will show for this, if not, i'm sure we'll manage with just the 3 of us until someone else pops their head in.

Do the rest of the team wish to have further discussions before Tatran begins? I think it would be better if Tatran had his turns before we go into any more detailed discussions, that way we all have a first hand account of this game. What do you think Tatran?

One thing i would say before you start, hold back on the troops unless our cities can sustain them because our economy is running on fumes at the moment.

 

[Tatran]

What should be settled first,the wines in the south-east,the
horses in the north or the good lands between Moscow and Bergen.
Should we stay with the cxxc or put cities near rivers (no aquaducts
needed).There are enough rivers.

It is desireble the game progresses every day.

 

[Whomp]

Sorry I meant The Wheel. HBR is next.
The decision making process:
1. Can I afford it? Well I would say no for the gpt that was dished out. By moving down the research dial to 0% you could tell how much positive gpt the economy was producing.
2. Do I need it? No not really. Even if you know where the horses you're building a granary then a settler so it would not have been necessary at least until a couple other cities were settled. If you are first to Math more trades would become possible.
3. Can it be traded profitably? No one had money or more importantly techs to trade us. If they had techs to trade then it becomes a consideration.

OK let's try to be on the look out for some other techs to pop up to make this profitable. Remember Ragnar may not know everyone so there's still brokering opportunities.

 

[BlackJAC]

What should be settled first,the wines in the south-east,the
horses in the north or the good lands between Moscow and Bergen.
Should we stay with the cxxc or put cities near rivers (no aquaducts
needed).There are enough rivers.

It is desireble the game progresses every day.

Go with rivers where possible.

It's a tough one to answer, but i'd go for the horses and we could always get the wines at a later date with our horsemen if that turns out to be the case. I would rather fight for the wines than fight a civ that would have horsemen when we don't.

CxxC or CxxxC is fine by me.

 

[BlackJAC]

Whomp, did you get my PM?

 

[Tatran]

2510 BC
Changed worker to warrior in Daghdovorsk.
Warrior will go to Moscow for MP.

2470 BC
Daghdovorsk starts building a worker.
Scouts tell us,the Mongols are nearby
and have horses.

2430 BC
The Vikings and Mongols know Iron Working.
Luxury slider to 20%,research at 0%.

2390 BC
They all know Iron Working.
Worker to sugar plains to build a road.
(Ivory needs to be connected.)
Buy Iron Working from the Chinese for CB + 8 gold.
Good news there is Iron in neighbourhood.
Bad news the Mongols claim one source.
The next settler should secure Iron.

2350 BC
More scouting.
Moscow finishes granary,starts building a settler.

2310 BC
Daghdovorsk starts building a spearman.
St. Petersburg starts building a worker.

2270 BC
More scouting.

2230 BC
Worker starts mining sugar plains.

2190 BC
Luxury slider 0%.90% tax.
Moscow finishes a settler.
Settler + warrior go south to the Iron hill.

2150 BC
Rome has also horses.(Saw it a little late.)
Ivory is connected,worker starts irrigating.

 

[Whomp]

Nice turns Tatran.
The trade was pretty straight forward with the Chinese. It seems they all know each other. You need it and you could afford it. Be aware of the pressure on the Vikings border with the placement on the iron hill. With the gpt they may not make much of it now. A dotmap would be helpful.

 

[BlackJAC]

Well done tatran

One dot map:

Don't take any notice of the other dots as I'll go into that another time

 

[BlackJAC]

As not to antagonise the Vikings any time soon, we may have to opt for the yellow dot. The green dot would allow us to grab some game.

Both options will mess our CxxC or CxxxC system. It's imperative we secure the iron so i accept we will have to abandon the city layout on this occasion.

 

[Tatran]

I think Kazan (Mongols) was a goody hut.
Too bad our scout went to the west.

Yellow and white dot means an aquaduct.
The river along the green dot would give 2 very
productive cities.With all the grassland I wouldn't
mind to have some hills and mountains in the future
cities radii.
It's up to the next player where to found the Iron city.

Since we know where the horses and iron are on the map
it is good to keep on scouting,so we know who has which resource.
With a little luck there is no more iron near China and Rome,so they
can't build their UU.

 

[Daghdha]

Well I'm back from rehersal with my alt.country outfit . I agree we roll this on three blind mice for now.Good work Tatran! The Russian Empire is growing nicely. City planning must be flexible so I suggest settling priority 1 Iron 2 Horse 3 Wines.
Irrigating Ivory and mining sugar is the reverse to what I had done without further checking the outcome. I guess that Tatran's is the best call but have to look up Crackers list on outcome of improvments to see why.
I'm thinking about our expansion in the future and figure as follows:

If we can expand to the brown borders we could be in a spot where we cut off neighbours from each other. If so, how could we use that to our profit? Am I right that if, say, mongols and scandis trade they must be at peace with us to keep trading (until harbours are built at least)?
edit: I'd pick green spot for same reasons Tatran gave.

 

[Bede]

Buys Wheel from Ragnar for Pot+10gpt+4g's. He's the first to know it and paying gpt might keep him calm
Horses NE of Daghdovorsk

Ragnar seen you coming

All I can add is he sure did!

Some rules if thumb on how to to keep from being skinned:

1) Behavioral
AI are very likely to research a technology which reveals a resource and allows a unit or wonder. So typically you can afford to wait as this kind if knowledge becomes cheaper very quickly as demonstrated by Tartran's trade for IW in his log.
2) Pricing
You can determine a rough beaker cost for a technology by setting the science budget at something faster then the min 50 and then mulitplying the delta gpt from 0 research by the turns required to learn it. In this instance ~110g. (3gpt*37). (Or you can use Ainwood's CivAssist utiltity to get a more accurate number. It is not really necessary, however.)
3) Game mechanics
The next factor to consider is what is known as the Trade Rate. The AI gets a discount and the human pays a premium in any technology deal. At Emperor level I think it is 30% but I'm not sure, and you just need to know that it exists. So you will always pay a premium over beaker cost. But I can guarantee you it is not 200% which is what was paid in this instance.

A note on technique:
When I opened the 3000BC save it took me a turn or so to figure out what was going on. As a courtesy to the next player, and also as a help to yourself, the "Always wait at end of turn" and "Ask for build orders after unit construction" preferences should be toggled on, and the "Always build previously built unit" preference toggled off.

I personally don't select the "Cancel orders...." preferences as they force my workers to restart their tasks and wastes the preceding worker turns.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

lurker's comment: Bede is now getting out the holy water and calling for an exorcist, but I feel the need to comment. I've read the thread, albeit, a little quickly. Nobody has commented about the cost of early wonders. In variant games, early wonders are many times necessary. In a straight emperor game, as you have here, get out all the fingers and toes and prepare to count. Ask yourselves, if we build wonder X, how many shields will it cost (it's there in the civilopedia) and then check how many units or city improvements could be built with the same amount of shields. Is the wonder effect worth losing those units or improvements early in the game? Hope this is general enough for ya. I resisted commenting on what early wonders I feel are useful. Have fun!

 

[Daghdha]

AI are very likely to research a technology which reveals a resource and allows a unit or wonder. So typically you can afford to wait as this kind if knowledge becomes cheaper very quickly as demonstrated by Tartran's trade for IW in his log.

Yes, but then we have the decision wether to wait and buy cheap as suggested here, or to run for it and sell with profit. I understand that this decision has to be made for every new situation and that one way is not "better" than the other. Just noting that the Blind now has the opportunity to learn how to choose wisely and being very grateful for that
Regarding GW´s and AK's comment, yes, I'm always reluctant to build wonders because I'm slow at expansion as it is. That is no real issue on <Mon levels, you "just" let AI build GW's 4 you then conquer them. On emp. I'm not sure we, at least me, are able to do that so I'm pro building SoZ. It's one heck of a powerful wonder.

 

[Daghdha]

I did trade for Masonry even though I was close to learning it as it added to the tradeable inventory at relatively low cost

So the AI "knows" how much you've put into one tech and will lower the price according to that?

Then a point on eldars "far away not good for nothing goody hut"-tactic. If I build a warrior 1:st and then a settler I have the escort in place. Should be possible, nicht wahr?

edit: Read through the posts and

Look for or own a monopoly tech. Buy it if you need to, then trade it around for technology you don't have

this is possibly the line that stuck when I did the 10gpt trade with Raggie. Maybe this a tendency in my play to act on general issues and then not paying attention to the small details involved...

 

[BlackJAC]

Our cities would be better off used for expansion, military and workers rather than building wonders early doors.

I feel it's not imperative we build the SoZ ASAP as we have the luxury of knowing where the ivory is situated on our continent. That at least gives us some indication as to when the AI will have it connected. Rarely do you see an abundance of ivory on 2 continents in the same game and I think we can take a risk by assuming the other unmet civs won't have ivory at this moment.

After getting stung with our first gpt deal, would everyone be in agreement that in future we discuss it as a team before entering any such deals?