Blue Monkey's Bharata Varsha Bazaar

Most of what was elided was references to specific texts of the era, careers of scientists & philosophers, and more detailed breakdowns in the areas of science & maths. I won't post it unless there's a specific question, like "What would be a good GW from India connected to science?"
 
After having plenty of time to think away from the mod (there's been a couple of sole long train journeys this week), I've discovered I can fit in the extra three civs to make it to a full 31 in the Anno Domini mod. I've done this by clubbing some civs together to get shared themed buildings - e.g. all the celtic civs getting the druid's grove instead of having different buildings for each one.

I'd like one of the new civs to be an Indian one, making three altogether, as Harappa and Kushan are already there (the others, incidently, will be the Jutes and the Scots). I can make these three into a culture group for India and would be interested in your opinion on the following:

01. I'd be using the first era of this leaderhead for the new civilization: Asoka - obviously renamed as appropriate. Shiro did the pcxs for the ancient era, so all the artwork's done. Which civ should I choose?

02. I've chosen Agricultural/Industrious for Harappa and their UU is the Harappan worker, who can irrigate without access to fresh water from the off and is faster than the average worker. The Kushan are Organised/Spiritual; I was thinking of a horse archer for their UU. What about the new civ? Also, if you feel that the Kushan have the wrong traits, then please let me know - organised, incidently, is a re-named Commercial.

03. There are sections in the tech tree I'd like to replace for the Indian civilizations. I've listed below what they are; any help at all on filling in some gaps would be appreciated - this is mainly to flavour the game, but if there are extra advantages we can give to the Indian civs, that's fine, part of their special gameplay!

Era one
The biggest era for changes:
Agriculture (builds wheat farm, which allows city size 2).
Logistics (builds barracks).
The above two leads to Horseriding (first horse unit: A2D1M2). My thoughts were that we could replace this branch with elephant riders - there's a follow-up tech in era two which could also be replaced.
Logistics leads to Archery (first archer unit (A3D1M1) and a GW which gives a free skirmisher (A3D2M1)
Masonry builds walls and leads to a flavoured tech, which normally leads to a flavour GW. The Great Granary would be good here for Harappa.
Boat building allows a harbour and the initial ships, and "Hanno's voyage" which gives +1 ship movement.

Era two
A flavour tech following Religion allows a specific religion to be the tech, and has a flavour building, typically allowing +1 happy face. Perhaps the Rubiyat could come in here, carrying an additional bonus?
The Republic is being replaced in many civs with a government more suitable to the civilization; what do you suggest and what could be it's stats? It would come towards the end of the second era and should be one that the civ might want to keep until the end of the game.
Horsemanship allows the upgrade to the horseman from era one; an A4D2M2 with an added HP bonus. Perhaps this could be an upgraded elephant unit?

Era three
Only one item to change here; a flavour tech following Urbanism leads to a leisure-time improvement which improves happiness

Era four
There's one flavour tech following Feudalism and one following Scholatisicm. These can lead to anything at all, as long as it is in flavour with the civilization.


So there we have it. I know there's a lot, but any help would be appreciated. You might be pleased to know that I'm also planning to make a few flavour units for India next week to suit the mod; I've looked at the blue lotus links to get some ideas :) .
 
I didn't mention this above, but I could also change the system for city growth, allowing the Indian civs to grow to size three cities by the end of era two instead of mid-era three; what do you think, and if it's an affirmative, have you any suggestions for changing the normal "hospitals" and "aqueducts?"

I've allocated room for 20 "special" buildings for Indian civs, so there's plenty of scope; also, do you have any suggestions for the diplomacy text for any of the civs (thanks for helping me with the Harappans already)?

Are there any city sets that would suit the Indians in the time period (dawn of time - medieval)?

Anno Domini is all about each civ having extra advantages that make the choice of civ a more interesting one for the player - for example, the Harappans can irrigate without fresh water from the start and their workers go 50% faster in addition to having the Industrious trait. Are there any advantages you could suggest for the Kushan and the other civ?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!
 
The Kushan's were certainly commercial; they sat in the middle of the crossroads between East and West. Considering that they built an empire out of almost nothing, an alternate to spiritual might be expansionist.

Perhaps Kushan's special advantage might be something to do with trade.

If you are looking for a quick overview of the Kushans, someone has completely redone the Kushan Empire page at Wikipedia.

I would make the third Indian civilization the Mauryan Empire. It was the most powerful and significant of ancient Indian states and Ashoka was its greatest emperor. The Mauryans in general, and Ashoka in particular, were very much concerned with spreading Buddhism.
 
I would make the third Indian civilization the Mauryan Empire. It was the most powerful and significant of ancient Indian states and Ashoka was its greatest emperor. The Mauryans in general, and Ashoka in particular, were very much concerned with spreading Buddhism.
I was thinking of the Mauryan Empire; I know there's a city list available in this thread. It's handy that the leaderhead I was planning to use was Ashoka himself. Other civs mentioned include the Chola and Pala empires; I just want to see which one Blue Monkey suggests, though I think there's a good chance he'll agree with you ;) .
 
I'll give your questions fuller attention later this weekend; wanted to give you at least a starting point for now, before I dash out to the local Ren Faire. Apologize for any typos in my haste.
I'd like one of the new civs to be an Indian one, making three altogether, as Harappa and Kushan are already there (the others, incidently, will be the Jutes and the Scots). ...
01. I'd be using the first era of this leaderhead for the new civilization: Asoka - obviously renamed as appropriate. ... Which civ should I choose?
Definitely the Mauryans, with Asoka. They were the reason A the G decided to go home, and were the driving force of the classical period of northern India. Although they disappeared a little earlier historically than your mod's height, no other culture could represent in quite the same way.

02. I've chosen Agricultural/Industrious for Harappa and their UU is the Harappan worker, who can irrigate without access to fresh water from the off and is faster than the average worker. The Kushan are Organised/Spiritual; I was thinking of a horse archer for their UU. What about the new civ? Also, if you feel that the Kushan have the wrong traits, then please let me know - organised, incidently, is a re-named Commercial.
Agree with 7ronin, Kushans should be organised/expanionist. They are one of the central Asian steppe tribes that horned in. They just became "civilised" a lot faster than the Mongols. Horse Archer/Lancer would be a perfect UU. Asoka started off militaristic/expansionist, responsible for one of the bloodiest military campaigns in Indian history. Then he became one of the greatest proponents of Buddhism. His famly was responsible for the spread of Buddhism as far as Sri Lanka and SE Asia. So maybe militaristic/spiritual(religious).



My thoughts were that we could replace this branch with elephant riders - there's a follow-up tech in era two which could also be replaced.
Every kind of force was mounted on elephants - archers, spearmen, etc. I'll sketch out a line for you. The Harappans seem to have been pacifists; no military at all. for game purposes they need to have some units. Maybe there's a way to limit them to defensive ones and aid their expansion with scouts/settlers?
Perhaps the Rubiyat could come in here, carrying an additional bonus?
Ramayana. Rubiyat is Mughal (moslem).

The Republic is being replaced in many civs with a government more suitable to the civilization; what do you suggest and what could be it's stats? It would come towards the end of the second era and should be one that the civ might want to keep until the end of the game.
They had a kind of republican monarchy, where kings were elected, and responsible to a council of ministers. I'll look up the name/details for you.

I could also change the system for city growth, allowing the Indian civs to grow to size three cities by the end of era two instead of mid-era three; what do you think, and if it's an affirmative, have you any suggestions for changing the normal "hospitals" and "aqueducts?"
Appropriate. And Buddhists were some of the first to build hospitals incorporating what we would consider modern techniques. I'd suggest "tanks" (public outdoor baths) to replace aqueducts.

Are there any city sets that would suit the Indians in the time period (dawn of time - medieval)?
Unfortunately none. I've thought about making some; but I'm notoriously slow. If someone wants to tackle them I'd happily collaborate with concept images, etc.

More to follow...
 
Wow!! Thanks a lot so far and I look forward to reading more when you've a chance to do it.

I should advise you that there is no "expansionist" trait in this mod; it has been taken over by "spiritual" - having the hard-coded goody hut bonus in addition to cheaper religious buildings.

Here are the traits:

Agricultural : Extra food in city square/irrigated desert; cheaper granaries.
Industrious : Workers work faster; extra shield in city square; cheaper whalers.
Organised : Extra commerce in city square; lower corruption; cheaper courts, courthouses and forums.
Philosophical : Free random advance at the start of each era; cheaper academies, libraries and schools.
Seafaring : Extra commerce in city square; ships move faster + reduced chance of sinking; cheaper harbours and ports.
Spiritual : No barbarians from goody huts (well, it had to go somewhere ); cheaper churches, shrines and temples.
Stable : No anarchy when switching governments; cheaper war-weariness reducing buildings.
Warlike : Unit promotions more likely; cheaper barracks and walls.

Once again, thank-you for your help so far :) .
 
R8XFT: Looks like you have some really great ideas here! It's also good to see you toiling among the CivIIIers; I was afraid that you had gone over permanently to the CivIV dark side.

It's also interesting to see that you have changed the names of some of the traits. This is something we talked about in one of the earlier iterations of Rise of Asia but could never come to agreement on exactly what they should have been.

I think that the Kushans are a very good choice for a civ. As you said, they were right in the middle of everything and were quick to adopt what they saw was best in the peoples they conquered. At their core they were probably Greco-Bactrians which I think is a very strange turn of events for a steppe people. Again, sitting at the crossroads, they knew of both the Romans and the Chinese. Kanishka was their greatest ruler; if you go to Kushan Empire at Wikipedia you can see some of his coins from which you can get an idea of his costume.
 
In response to lots of questions from the people helping R8XFT with the new version of AD (city discussion starts about pg. 9) I'm posting some images of South Asian cities and improvements/buildings. I've tried to stick to pre-Mughal images, but since there weren't any cameras back then, and some of the locations have seen continuous rebuilding for 3-4000 years, there's going to be mix of styles.

EDIT:The new versions of the thumbnails now expand into full-size images with much more detail visible.

First up:
Indians like a wide range of Colors in their Architecture. Cities can end up looking like a bouquet.
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Here's a gallery of Cityscapes to help those making city graphics.
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In answer to a request by RedAlert, this is a gallery of BCE Cities & Buildings. Most of the images are from temples at Barhut and Sanchi, meaning they are contemporary to the architecture depicted. Take special note of the line drawing at upper right. It's a reconstruction of how a house of the Vedic Age would have looked.
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EDIT: The new versions of the thumbnails now expand into full-size images with much more detail visible.


Here are four image galleries of progressively more complex temples. For Anno Domini I recommended a sequence of four religious buildings.

Lingas - every village would have a lingam available for daily puja (worship offerings)
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Vedis - a vedi is a fire altar. While these images are not of vedis, they do give the basic idea. An open, covered structure. A vedi would actually have a temporary brick altar (hearth) within, built in a unique shape according to the needs of the ceremony.
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Mandirs - Mandirs are what we would think of as permanent temple sites. There can either be a single building, or a whole complex of structures. Styles vary over time, of course. There are also major stylistic differences between the Tamil south and the Aryan north, with the southern school tending towards a much more decorative, even florid, look. Think in terms of the difference between a Gothic cathedral and a Rococo basilica.
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Stupas - Primarily Buddhist, although the Jains also use them. They are not temples, per se. Buddhist temples of the classical period would look a lot like Hindu temples except for the iconography. Stupas are reliquaries expressed in architecture.
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Finally, a gallery of Jain images, since their temples are of a unique style. They tend to build clusters of buildings, since their most spiritually advanced members live in a secluded community, and the temples often celebrate the location of the enlightenment of one of their Tirthankaras.
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EDIT: The new versions of the thumbnails now expand into full-size images with much more detail visible. A new gallery of forts has been added. Tanks has a couple of additional pictures in it. And the Various Buildings gallery also has two new images, including an urban granary.


Here are several galleries of city improvements for South Asian civs.


Torana (City Gates) are a significant architectural feature on their own. They hold religious significance, vaguely like a Shinto Torii. They also effectively advertise the culture and wealth of the city that builds them.
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Tanks are public reservoirs for ritual bathing. They have been an important part of South Asian daily life and culture from the Harappans to the present.
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Ghats are found all along the sacred rivers of India, primarily in or near towns. Many believe that a bather can wash away their sins in the river. At certain festivals sacred images also go for a bath. A particular ghat may be designated as a site for professional launderers. Some ghats (images with smoke) are dedicated to cremation ceremonies.
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Here are some Forts that date back to the pre-Mughal era, some to BCE (although they all have later additions). These may also serve as inspiration for city walls.
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Finally, Various Buildings for which I did not have access to sufficient images to give them a gallery of their own.
  • Going down the left side: veranda, meditation hall, wrestling arena, and audience platform (to the right of it on the bottom are two images of a less ornate version where taxes are being collected in the presence of the Raja).
  • Groupings in center top: 2 images of elephant stables, 2 proclamation pillars, & 3 Hall of Assembly images.
  • In the center are a granary, a ghat, and a Mughal-era artistic impression of a deer park.
  • On the lower right side is a watch tower.
  • The other buildings may of use as inspiration for various other improvements.
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Beautyfull collages Blue Monkey. :)
 
Do you have any bigger images of torana?
I could try to make one, but it is not very clear from the ones you posted what the specific shapes are.
Here are the best images I can find. They are all of the gates at the Great Stupa at Sanchi. They are from Wikimedia, and public domain. I'm posting links to the highest resolution of each image rather than posting them directly because of their large size. Keep in mind that these gates are the most ornate known to exist; most would be much simpler in detail, although the basic form would be the same.

Gate in context (stupa in background)
Whole gate
closeup of Horizontals
Corner support detail
Pillar base detail

:mischief: I'm sorry if you still need more detail; I can't afford tickets for us to visit Sanchi.:p
 
Is that the same gate that is in front of a stupa built in Asoka's time?
 
The "Great Stupa at Sanchi," hm? Time to make another Buddhist wonder. Especially now that Buddha's Birthday is coming up in Korea. :D
 
The "Great Stupa at Sanchi," hm? Time to make another Buddhist wonder.
Most of the images I posted are from the Wikipedia article on Sanchi, which discusses the building and rebuilding of the stupa. If you're going to do something 3d, you might like to look at the Unesco World Heritage site tour of Sanchi (360° interactive panoramas).
Especially now that Buddha's Birthday is coming up in Korea. :D
So are we invited for bibimbap?:mischief:
 
Blue Monkey said:
Most of the images I posted are from the Wikipedia article on Sanchi, which discusses the building and rebuilding of the stupa. If you're going to do something 3d, you might like to look at the Unesco World Heritage site tour of Sanchi (360° interactive panoramas).

That's a great resource. I can use those images to make textures. :)

Blue Monkey said:
So are we invited for bibimbap?:mischief:

Only if you don't mind paying for the flight or are able to magically teleport here. :D
 
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