BNW Deity Tier List

[Thorak]

Agree about oracle.

I've done tradition Korea 240 on a large islands map, standard settings no worker steal or any other grey area practices. I was in a tundra too (and someone beat me to the pantheon, so no religion). No river/mountain in capital. 100% peaceful.

Not quite archepelego, but I can't imagine it's that different.

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Why didn't you submit the game to the HoF? As it is now I have noone but myself to compete against for my science wins and I also don't see the proof of it unless it gets submitted.

But otherwise no, large island is kinda the same as archipelago if you skip the worker stealing. If you don't skip it it's easier...

 

[Light Cleric]

How to ninja the AI trying to ninja your wonder:
Only switch to production focus 2-3 turns before completing so you will complete in only 1 turn.

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Actually I meant I got ninjaed by people posting twice before me as I was typing

 

[direblade99]

How to ninja the AI trying to ninja your wonder:
Only switch to production focus 2-3 turns before completing so you will complete in only 1 turn.

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What? I don't understand this post.

 

[tommynt]

Why didn't you submit the game to the HoF? As it is now I have noone but myself to compete against for my science wins and I also don't see the proof of it unless it gets submitted.

multiple people including myself posted t200+- science wins on this forum.

f.e. from this game - save on page 5 of thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501378&highlight=poland+strategy

dont see why people should care for hof submissions, espacially as "hof staff" acts "weired" to say it nicly. Just see ban discussions there.

 

[Thorak]

That's turn 219, with salt and FoY on pangea. That is just about as optimal a start as you can get without playing spain. I do agree that since it was totally peaceful and only 4 cities it could possibly be made faster. I beleive Korea might also be able to do it quicker than Poland.

It is rather easy to do a 250 turn science win on pangea, but it slows down a lot on archipelago types.

Reason for posting in HoF is to get one place to gather the times instead of having to run through 1000 of posts for results, ending up in most people (me for example) not finding the best times posted and thus having only "bad" times to beat. Also, it is a check that there were no weird things going on in that game (like science overflow exploits and so on, at least it is a bit harder to do it).

I have no bad experiences with the HoF staff so far.

 

[tommynt]

u wanted see a faster win as yours, now i posted one are u r still not happy ...

this game was done 1+ year ago when no1 even knew about things like blub exploit, and not a single obersvatory city.
A observatory cap allone d proly speed things by 20 turns or so. So yes obviously it can be done faster... dont think we need discuss that.

Roll for a petra observatory spot and things look pretty good for t200+- win.

 

[Resipsa]

Idk, discussing Diety SS CV does seem like a waste of time in this thread which values consistency so much.

I think so too but it was in response to why Byzantium was rated so low. I don't even think Byzantium is the best civ to do it.

 

[adwcta]

Why didn't you submit the game to the HoF? As it is now I have noone but myself to compete against for my science wins and I also don't see the proof of it unless it gets submitted.

But otherwise no, large island is kinda the same as archipelago if you skip the worker stealing. If you don't skip it it's easier...

I'm not sure how HOF works. Rules, etc. Although, I play on standard settings so it shouldn't be a problem. Do I just play a game and it autosaves into a whole game file? Or, is there a program I have to install, etc.

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[Thorak]

u wanted see a faster win as yours, now i posted one are u r still not happy ...

this game was done 1+ year ago when no1 even knew about things like blub exploit, and not a single obersvatory city.
A observatory cap allone d proly speed things by 20 turns or so. So yes obviously it can be done faster... dont think we need discuss that.

Roll for a petra observatory spot and things look pretty good for t200+- win.

Never said I wasn't happy. Turn 219 is a good goal to go for. I doubt I will be able to beat it on an archipelago type map though but I am tempted to reroll for another Polynesia start where I can go for more cities, but I still beleive Polynesia is the strongest civ for all victory conditions on an archipelago type map, possibly with the exception of science, but I beleive it is in the top there as well but it requires some conquering of good cities.

And I would also say that it's REALLY hard to get a start better than the one you had in that Poland game. Getting Petra without conquering it on diety is also very difficult (though I usually always conquer the Petra city unless it's on the other side of the map).

 

[tommynt]

And I would also say that it's REALLY hard to get a start better than the one you had in that Poland game

about 50% of starts are better - every start with a mountain or desert next to cap. Maybe even some coastal ones.

 

[Gustavus Rex]

The Ottomans?!

Why are the Ottomans not at the bottom? Is the pirate stuff really that good? Just finished my first game with them and it felt like Spain with no natural wonders. Sure I captured some boats now and then but.... I must have missed something. I'd say they got nothing, possibly worst of them all.

 

[Light Cleric]

The Ottomans?!

Why are the Ottomans not at the bottom? Is the pirate stuff really that good? Just finished my first game with them and it felt like Spain with no natural wonders. Sure I captured some boats now and then but.... I must have missed something. I'd say they got nothing, possibly worst of them all.

Barbary Corsairs is a pretty cool UA and Janisarries can be sick espcially since the heal on kill carries over on upgrade

 

[Browd]

I'm not sure how HOF works. Rules, etc. Although, I play on standard settings so it shouldn't be a problem. Do I just play a game and it autosaves into a whole game file? Or, is there a program I have to install, etc.

Nothing to install, and all you need to know you can find by rummaging around here: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/index.php.

The basics are follow the rules on what game settings are permitted, avoid the few exploits that are prohibited, and don't reload any turns.

Game submission is easy: when you win, click "One more turn" and create your winning save file (same as the GOTM process). You will submit the winning save file, together with your initial autosave and two other autosaves (one from about 1/3 of the way through and the other 2/3 of the way -- recommend setting autosave interval to 1 turn and save enough autosaves to cover the full game).

If you intend to start a new game before you get around to submitting to the HOF file uploader, go into your autosave directory and manually save those initial, 1/3 and 2/3 autosaves to a separate folder. Do NOT load the autosaves inside the game to create new saves; that shows up as reloading and will disqualify your submission (learned that one the hard way!).

 

[adwcta]

Nothing to install, and all you need to know you can find by rummaging around here: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/index.php.

The basics are follow the rules on what game settings are permitted, avoid the few exploits that are prohibited, and don't reload any turns.

Game submission is easy: when you win, click "One more turn" and create your winning save file (same as the GOTM process). You will submit the winning save file, together with your initial autosave and two other autosaves (one from about 1/3 of the way through and the other 2/3 of the way -- recommend setting autosave interval to 1 turn and save enough autosaves to cover the full game).

If you intend to start a new game before you get around to submitting to the HOF file uploader, go into your autosave directory and manually save those initial, 1/3 and 2/3 autosaves to a separate folder. Do NOT load the autosaves inside the game to create new saves; that shows up as reloading and will disqualify your submission (learned that one the hard way!).

Wow, that's intense. Okay, so move the auto-saves to a separate folder (because they auto-delete every 50 or so, so they won't be there by the end), don't reload turns (although, how can anyone even tell?), and am I correct in that there are only 4 space victories on Deity in BNW in the HoF (and only 3 of those are on standard maps)? That seems, low.

 

[Browd]

You can go into Game Options and set the number of autosaves to, e.g., 500, so no need to remember to move autosaves while the game is going on.

And they can tell when you reload.

Haven't checked BNW Deity science victories in HOF, but will take your word for it. IIRC, HOF didn't start taking BNW submissions until after the balance patch, so it hasn't been all that long.

 

[Cromagnus]

Yeah BNW wasn't in HoF until November I think. Most people play domination HoF games it seems. Probably because deity SV is easy mode boring compared to pre-BNW.

 

[adwcta]

The Ottomans?!

Why are the Ottomans not at the bottom? Is the pirate stuff really that good? Just finished my first game with them and it felt like Spain with no natural wonders. Sure I captured some boats now and then but.... I must have missed something. I'd say they got nothing, possibly worst of them all.

The pirate stuff is really so that you only have to build two triremes in the beginning of the game and then you'll end up with enough ships to very quickly explore the entire world. You can also use it on coastal maps for a rather effective early rush if you kamikaze your units and have land support (use boats to take city, use land units to kill units). This part of the UA acts as a better version of Germany's UA (since units are farmable and more common than camps). It also gives you a late game advantage in naval battles, mostly to allow you to create more navies, at the correct locations, to attack more civilizations/cities at once (assuming you secure a ton of oil). Much like the Mongols go after civs with horses first, you should go after civs with oil. Because Modern Era warfare is all about speed (before the AI gets to spaceship), this is very useful. This is not given huge consideration in value, and it can go toe to toe with the value of any military social policy (besides Autocracy tier 3).

But... have you ever taken a look at your unit upkeep and calculated just how much each unit in each era costs to upkeep? The upkeep rises each extra unit you have. Civilian units like workers or great scientists/great writers you are saving all count as units. I have. It's about 2.4 gpt per unit in mid-game, rising up to over 5.5gpt in late game with a large enough unit count (which you will accumulate through conquest). Even using an average-sized naval force, the total gold savings is not significantly less than the savings in influence purchase Greece gets. In games where having a large navy is beneficial (basically, all of our maps, but especially Continents and Small Continents), this bonus gets rather insane. This also allows you to efficiently keep enough units around influence city states for Autocracy's city state policy, as an alternate victory condition.

Also, while the land UUs are mediocre, neither are useless, and they both come at the era with artillery, which is an easy time to clear your continent. Both UUs self-heal (one with free pillage, and one upon destroying an enemy unit), which make them the best meat shields, eyes, and unit mop-up crew for your artillery, for extra speed. Everything really comes together for the Ottoman Empire at the time when Ideologies become accessible and the game allows for easy conquest of large quantities of cities without suffering deep unhappiness.

This is by far not the strongest civ on that tier, but it's also noticeably stronger than Japan/America's war capabilities and has an economic advantage that rivals Carthage, all at the same time. I wouldn't be opposed to moving them down, but they're really not that much worse than Germany for military production capabilities, or Greece for gold savings.

 

[dw0]

What? I don't understand this post.

He's saying you can switch a wonder-building city's citizens over to full-steam Production when you are 2-3 turns from completion and often drop that number to 1 turn. This gets you a few turns faster on the wonder without having a sustained period of starvation / poor science / poor GPT by focusing solely on production tiles.

 

[hai 1]

Is there any evidence to suggest that ai's actively attempt to ninja wonders, such that what he is suggesting would actually help? IMO it is necessary to focus on production for the entire duration of building a wonder anyway, so I'm not sure that'd be such a good idea even if they do.

 

[adwcta]

Is there any evidence to suggest that ai's actively attempt to ninja wonders, such that what he is suggesting would actually help? IMO it is necessary to focus on production for the entire duration of building a wonder anyway, so I'm not sure that'd be such a good idea even if they do.

It does happen to me quite often... makes you think. However, I highly doubt that's the case. The AI still uses the spying mechanic for their information and can't even see the full map.

-----

Also, different note. I updated the definition for ^^ and * to reflect the coastal start biases. It seems to me that Pangaea doesn't really have the downsides to water civs the same way that Island maps disfavor ^ and ^^ civs.

I also dropped China and Venice, and upped China's map type flavor. China's strength is almost purely in ground combat (similar to Huns/Zulu/Mongol), and they really do not do terribly well in continents or small continents. China's rating would still be the same on Pangaea maps (a top tier warmonger). And, as it's been brought up before, Venice can have rather problematic starts despite the start bias.