-
We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.
BNW Deity Tier List
- Thread starter adwcta
- Start date
hai 1
Chief
I am skeptical, to say the least
In my last game (Immortal, cultural), Persia and I started Uffizi at the same time. I had a diplomat in their capital and I was checking every turn to see to see how much time left they had to complete it. It changed throughout the whole build cycle - as if they were constantly moving citizens around (I didn't count or see where they were placed). Sometimes they would speed up (going down by 2-3 turns) and other times, they would slow down (go up by 2). I did go full-steam production with about 2-3 turns left and beat them by 4 turns. (Incidentally, from then on, I would never be contested for any wonders - got too far ahead.)
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2011
- Messages
- 3,225
I think you're right. I wouldn't say this is "ninjaing", but rather just squeezing out production that you cannot sustain because you'd starve out. The AI does get annoyed when you build wonders it wanted(I think it's hidden since G&K but is still a small factor and shows up when someone REALLY hates you), but it doesn't experience the "I WAS ONE TURNA WAY
" feeling that we do.hai 1
Chief
Ah okay now I get it. He meant ninja in a figurative sense, where they aren't actually intentionally doing it. Forcing production even more in the last few turns without starving out can help decrease the likelihood of losing wonder races, at little opportunity cost. I figured he had gotten caught up in a misunderstanding of the facts that there are 7 other civs, wonder races are bound to be somewhat close when you are remotely in the realm of tech parity, and the availability heuristic (where the most prominent memories on the subject spring to mind when making judgements of their frequency, often leading to ill-formed assessments). Losing wonders with one turn left is incredibly annoying after all (especially the turn of!!).
Anyway, that is strange stuff regarding how the ai constantly shuffles their citizens around. Do they always do this, or only while building wonders?
Anyway, that is strange stuff regarding how the ai constantly shuffles their citizens around. Do they always do this, or only while building wonders?
GhostSalsa
Emperor
Pietato
Platonic Perfection
I do that all the time, as I am sure most people do...
Also, the ranged unit is much better at defending the city.
Gustavus Rex
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2013
- Messages
- 428
Thanks for a detailed answer. I did take advanege of the exploring part, still I did find polynesias ua better.
But I missed the detail about unit-cost and that is indeed big. Since I had Shaka and Casimir on my small continent my defens was more about land units.
Ill give them another go!
Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk
Justice1337
Sofa King
Yeah, I think saving unit maintenance is an often overlooked aspect of a good Domination civ nowadays. I recently had a game with the Celts where Salt was the luxury the map gave me multiples of. Great for Food and Production, bad, really bad for Gold. I was also on a 3 person continent, which led to my trades getting cut off when I went to war. The result was that I literally could not get enough Gold to support the military I wanted, even with Markets. I was essentially relying on Pillage Gold and city cap Gold. On more than one turn, the deficit was eating into my Beaker production. That probably wouldn't have happened with Zulu or Germany, and I probably would've been income positive. That essentially never happened in G&K due to River Gold, but in BNW, income is one more metric that's designed to suffer directly as a result of going to war. You will definitely price yourself out of a University rush-buy, and may spend yourself into the Dark Ages if you pursue war.
Now speaking of the China downgrade, I think it's fair on that basis. The UU and UA aside, the 3 net Gold per City UB can be seen as free Maintenance for 2 units at around the T100 mark. That's about on the same level as Germany/Zulu for an army about the size of 5-6 units per city. Of course, you get the Gold as soon as you build Libraries, and you don't have to build the units. That's some front-loading and some flexibility. But where China loses is in the late era. Units start to cost about 3 GPT each in the Industrial era and on. At that point, Zulu's Gold savings is tied to Longswords/Impi staying relevant, but Germany/Ottoman really start to save you a ton of Gold. Now, I happen to think a lot of Germany. Ottoman's bonus though is a lot higher in magnitude, but applies its best effect only on certain map types. On those map types and VC's though, Ottoman is probably the top civ for both facets of that UA. I'm taking them over England and any of the ship UU civs.
Still, I do think Germany is pretty awesome compared to other war-like options. They have a war-related bonus for each era. Ancient, you get the stealing aspect of the UA, which can range from very good to zero depending on your build order and map. Renaissance essentially gives you powered-up Hammer ITR's, and even Modern gives you a good UU. The Maintenance bonus apples all throughout. It's just a really good war civ in a game where war is more about economy than gimmicky UU's. I've never been stopped in a war effort because my units were not good enough in whatever aspect, but I've often hesitated or made peace early due to economy.
Now speaking of the China downgrade, I think it's fair on that basis. The UU and UA aside, the 3 net Gold per City UB can be seen as free Maintenance for 2 units at around the T100 mark. That's about on the same level as Germany/Zulu for an army about the size of 5-6 units per city. Of course, you get the Gold as soon as you build Libraries, and you don't have to build the units. That's some front-loading and some flexibility. But where China loses is in the late era. Units start to cost about 3 GPT each in the Industrial era and on. At that point, Zulu's Gold savings is tied to Longswords/Impi staying relevant, but Germany/Ottoman really start to save you a ton of Gold. Now, I happen to think a lot of Germany. Ottoman's bonus though is a lot higher in magnitude, but applies its best effect only on certain map types. On those map types and VC's though, Ottoman is probably the top civ for both facets of that UA. I'm taking them over England and any of the ship UU civs.
Still, I do think Germany is pretty awesome compared to other war-like options. They have a war-related bonus for each era. Ancient, you get the stealing aspect of the UA, which can range from very good to zero depending on your build order and map. Renaissance essentially gives you powered-up Hammer ITR's, and even Modern gives you a good UU. The Maintenance bonus apples all throughout. It's just a really good war civ in a game where war is more about economy than gimmicky UU's. I've never been stopped in a war effort because my units were not good enough in whatever aspect, but I've often hesitated or made peace early due to economy.
thats just 100% wrong.
Eco does matter ZERO, if u do warware the right way.
With or without gimmicky uu u can either kill all civs or at least all on your landmass in a 20-30 turn timespan. Even if rearch d drop down to 0 in that time it just d not matter AT ALL.
With ships things are even faster.
Justice1337
Sofa King
Sometimes I actually wish you would back up your nay-saying with actual discussion. Maybe you actually have something to contribute. I don't know.
Here, you're talking about wiping the map in 20-30 turns. You really need context for a wild claim like that. Maybe you're playing Pangea every game as Huns? Maybe Tiny maps? Marathon speed? On standard settings, clearing 7-civs some of whom are warmongers is a feat achievable only after the Modern Era at earliest. And you're bringing this up in the context of Civ's with unit maintenance bonuses, one of which only applies to early era melee units. Not very well thought out.
If your ideal domination is to next turn, next turn on 4-cities Tradtiion until you have a tech lead, then roll out with Frigates/Artys/Bombers/Rocket Artillery in sequence, you will probably find out sooner or later that there are other ways to play this game than just tech-racing every start. And you might find out that it takes more than 30 turns in Standard maps. We'll never be able to tell though, because you never offer any support for the things you say.
Here, you're talking about wiping the map in 20-30 turns. You really need context for a wild claim like that. Maybe you're playing Pangea every game as Huns? Maybe Tiny maps? Marathon speed? On standard settings, clearing 7-civs some of whom are warmongers is a feat achievable only after the Modern Era at earliest. And you're bringing this up in the context of Civ's with unit maintenance bonuses, one of which only applies to early era melee units. Not very well thought out.
If your ideal domination is to next turn, next turn on 4-cities Tradtiion until you have a tech lead, then roll out with Frigates/Artys/Bombers/Rocket Artillery in sequence, you will probably find out sooner or later that there are other ways to play this game than just tech-racing every start. And you might find out that it takes more than 30 turns in Standard maps. We'll never be able to tell though, because you never offer any support for the things you say.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
I can reliably clear my starting continent with any civ on deity in about 40 turns, and I'm not as good at warmongering as tommy, so I can at least confirm that he's not exaggerating much if at all. It's harder for me on Pangaea to clear the entire map before XBs become outdated but I have done it. Without UUs.
Edit: I'm speaking of a CB/XB rush where you XP until about t80-90 and then start taking cities.
Edit: I'm speaking of a CB/XB rush where you XP until about t80-90 and then start taking cities.
adwcta
King
That's the thing though... You still can't be at 0 tech when clearing out your continent. You have at least another one to go. And that war will be fought in a different era.
Even if tommy can clear a map with ships in 30 turns whenever he chooses.... The rest of us can't.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Even if tommy can clear a map with ships in 30 turns whenever he chooses.... The rest of us can't.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Justice1337
Sofa King
This idea that Tommy is God is pretty irritating as well. This is a turn-based strategy game. Your cities don't fail to produce things because you didn't click the button fast enough. You get unlimited time to consider your options, and unlimited playthroughs to implement things with zero pressure. What's not unlimited are the resources the map gives you. If a good player can get, say, 10 Frigates by Turn 150, then the worst an average player will get once he understands the concepts is maybe 8-9. There's just not very much room to go wrong once it comes to implementing things.
Nah, I'm going to say the more likely of the two scenarios between tommy being the Civ-God and Tommy making false claims, is that he's just blowing steam. If here were bright enough to do something consistently in-game, he would be bright enough to at least voice some non-zero amount of analysis on that point.
Nah, I'm going to say the more likely of the two scenarios between tommy being the Civ-God and Tommy making false claims, is that he's just blowing steam. If here were bright enough to do something consistently in-game, he would be bright enough to at least voice some non-zero amount of analysis on that point.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
The other continent is easier unless there's an inland capital. But, any tech slowdown caused by clearing your continent is more than made up for by having 4+ capitals to spit out frigates. And half of them come with wonders and universities. So what? Instead of being #1 in tech on t150 you're in the middle of the pack worst-case scenario, with a whole continent. It's easy at that point to achieve the tech lead and win with battleships even if you somehow can't with frigates. (You can)
It's like this: you took 4 capitals with your cbs and XBs. You bulbed machinery on t95 with the liberty finisher, teched compass, started building galleas in all cities, stole education, so you have universities on t130 at the latest. You oxford navigation and then bulb industrialization with the first GS that pops. You swim your upgraded gatlings over with some knights to finish off the inland capital that your frigates couldn't reach. Game over by t210 and yes those units are still viable then. If you think this isn't easy then you need more practice.
Edit: sorry, maybe it's not fair to say it's easy to learn to do this, but it's easy once you know how. Tommy has a habit of implying that all this should be obvious when in reality it takes a lot of practice before this is easy.
It's like this: you took 4 capitals with your cbs and XBs. You bulbed machinery on t95 with the liberty finisher, teched compass, started building galleas in all cities, stole education, so you have universities on t130 at the latest. You oxford navigation and then bulb industrialization with the first GS that pops. You swim your upgraded gatlings over with some knights to finish off the inland capital that your frigates couldn't reach. Game over by t210 and yes those units are still viable then. If you think this isn't easy then you need more practice.
Edit: sorry, maybe it's not fair to say it's easy to learn to do this, but it's easy once you know how. Tommy has a habit of implying that all this should be obvious when in reality it takes a lot of practice before this is easy.
Justice1337
Sofa King
The other continent is easier unless there's an inland capital. But, any tech slowdown caused by clearing your continent is more than made up for by having 4+ capitals to spit out frigates. And half of them come with wonders and universities. So what? Instead of being #1 in tech on t150 you're in the middle of the pack worst-case scenario, with a whole continent. It's easy at that point to achieve the tech lead and win with battleships even if you somehow can't with frigates. (You can)
It's like this: you took 4 capitals with your cbs and XBs. You bulbed machinery on t95 with the liberty finisher, teched compass, started building galleas in all cities, stole education, so you have universities on t30 at the latest. You oxford navigation and then bulb industrialization with the first GS that pops. You swim your upgraded gatlings over with some knights to finish off the inland capital that your frigates couldn't reach. Game over by t210 and yes those units are still viable then. If you think this isn't easy then you need more practice.
No one's saying that's not possible.
But Turn 90 to Turn 210 is a fair bit longer than the 30 turns Tommy claimed was possible to clear the map. All the while apparently not building units, since the reason he said so was to claim that unit maintenance was irrelevant.
That's the problem with supplying zero context and analysis. Everyone reads what they want, no one learns anything, and we're all dumber from having read that last baseless comment.
Yes, everyone reads what they want. Tommy said "or at least all on your landmass."
Moderator Action: If this group is going to have a well-focused argument about game play (and this one is certainly interesting to follow), everyone should be precise in their reading of what others say (however infuriating their words may be) and in how they respond. So far everyone has stayed more or less civil. Let's keep it that way.
Moderator Action: If this group is going to have a well-focused argument about game play (and this one is certainly interesting to follow), everyone should be precise in their reading of what others say (however infuriating their words may be) and in how they respond. So far everyone has stayed more or less civil. Let's keep it that way.
Sry clearing map with op untis got very little to do with skill, everyone can do it - with some focus at least.
You just need the all out mentality, with it it works even without op uus.
With op uu units like keshics, camels, longbow, chos things are just much easier.
And then there is the other way to "win" the war.
a small veteran army of like 4-5 archers hwom u constantly upgrade and add a unit here and then, maybe MCS units. This little army can slowly take out one civ after the other while your empire "does its thing".
For botth ways unit upkeep isnt important at all.
You just need the all out mentality, with it it works even without op uus.
With op uu units like keshics, camels, longbow, chos things are just much easier.
And then there is the other way to "win" the war.
a small veteran army of like 4-5 archers hwom u constantly upgrade and add a unit here and then, maybe MCS units. This little army can slowly take out one civ after the other while your empire "does its thing".
For botth ways unit upkeep isnt important at all.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
Oh I agree, his comments are generally 99% vitriol and 1% useful info. I'm not defending him. Just confirming his statement... 
Regarding clearing the map in 30 turns, again, it depends on how you're doing it. Blended rush (XB->frigates) takes longer than a frigate beeline or a Pangaea CB rush. But 30 turns is totally feasible for a pure frigate rush. It's not easy, it takes perfect execution, but it's feasible. His arrogance about it being "np easy any monkey should be able to do it" is of course wrong and obnoxious, but he's not wrong about it being possible.
And in the context of that efficient of a warpath, unit maintenance costs are pretty meaningless. But, for the average joe, yes it matters. IMHO.
Moderator Action: This is trolling another member, and it needs to stop.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Regarding clearing the map in 30 turns, again, it depends on how you're doing it. Blended rush (XB->frigates) takes longer than a frigate beeline or a Pangaea CB rush. But 30 turns is totally feasible for a pure frigate rush. It's not easy, it takes perfect execution, but it's feasible. His arrogance about it being "np easy any monkey should be able to do it" is of course wrong and obnoxious, but he's not wrong about it being possible.
And in the context of that efficient of a warpath, unit maintenance costs are pretty meaningless. But, for the average joe, yes it matters. IMHO.
Moderator Action: This is trolling another member, and it needs to stop.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
pls stop that trolling, or i llhavw to report posts.
Speaking about other is just plain out rude
and this post is just dumb.
Enough trolls and dumbasses on this forum, u dont have to be one of them.
Moderator Action: Accusing someone of trolling is trolling. If you have a problem with a post, just report it -- don't engage in the forum. Also, please watch the language -- your point is made without name calling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Speaking about other is just plain out rude
and this post is just dumb.
Enough trolls and dumbasses on this forum, u dont have to be one of them.
Moderator Action: Accusing someone of trolling is trolling. If you have a problem with a post, just report it -- don't engage in the forum. Also, please watch the language -- your point is made without name calling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
