You don't get the Hanse until the end of the midgame - beginning of the late game. Rome gets their UA in the early game. Rome doesn't have to tie up Trade Routes to City States which give no science and less gold than the AI nor can they use them for growth. Rome's UA works just as well for Semi Wide Civs @6 and those are pretty common if you are trying to make some room for yourself.
BNW Deity Tier List
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You don't get the Hanse until the end of the midgame - beginning of the late game. Rome gets their UA in the early game. Rome doesn't have to tie up Trade Routes to City States which give no science and less gold than the AI nor can they use them for growth. Rome's UA works just as well for Semi Wide Civs @6 and those are pretty common if you are trying to make some room for yourself.
Justice1337
Sofa King
Pushing 150 Culture per turn right now at Turn 150'ish of a Polynesia game. With Hotels that will be maybe around 60 Tourism once they're built in all cities. With Airports, I'm at maybe 110 or so. Add wonders, theming bonuses, landmarks (if any), and Holy Sites, that puts me at maybe 200 Tourism at best before Internet. So, 400 base after Internet. Now, 600 per turn would be about the best Tourism per turn counts I've had, and that seems to be in-line with what other Deity players are achieving, with or without culture UI's.
But... three civs including Ethiopia are pushing 15000 culture right now on Turn 150. Ethiopia's CPT with Sistine is probably over 300. He could win the World's Fair or just double that output naturally. Needless to say, if I can't at least overtake his CPT with my Tourism after modifiers, I will never win a CV against him w/o Musicians. If I can't overtake it by at least double, with modifiers, I will probably be at a worse time that I would've been building a ship, and will probably be beaten.
I strongly doubt that a Deity CV is possible without spending a single Faith point on a Musician. It is certainly not ideal, automatic, or intuitive like you suggest. Doing that would certainly depend much more on AI behavior than how fast you pushed tech. Maybe do'able without Musicians in 1 of 20 games. Bottom line, CV isn't helped by teching to nearly the level that SV is. So if your strategy game-long is to just push tech, you are going for an SV, regardless of which Wonders you're pushing.
Well tommy, I do think that it's not just a slight bit of understanding that is needed... (might be "slight" to you, but not to other people).
I'm curious to see what turn time of hotels you are talking about since you seem to be able to get a CV running with just that on deity. (t120 maybe?
but I don't think that's realistically to be expected of your typical average non-pro deity player, of which you are clearly not) What is "huge" to you? 200 tpt?For Poly, Brazil, or France, the max tpt should be 700-800 (for others around 500... Brazil can reach 4 digits with a good game) in my experience anyway (assuming no IG no world religion).
It all depends on what the AI does... and how many of them went for culture focus. You can do it without GM if your tpt is 1000 for example... on the other hand with just 500 I don't think you can finish in a reasonable time unless all the AI have only 20-25k or so at 300 turns (some AIs are like that... but others maybe have 50k... met a deity Kamehameha who had upwards of 75k once).
Cromagnus
Deity
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My point with pushing tech was simply that the sooner you have NVC and double tourism output, the sooner you start overtaking them. It makes more of a difference than any one other thing you can do because even IG isn't permanent. Yes, clearly you have to get great works or some other source of tourism, you clearly can't ignore it, but the sooner you hit The Internet, the better, unless you're playing as a civ like Brazil, France or Polynesia who can hit such high tourism levels pre-internet that they don't necessarily need it to win. Delaying the internet only makes it harder to catch up, and I just assumed we were talking about bulbing musicians post-internet, here. I mean, I take it as a given on deity that you would need to do that in most games to overtake any cultural powerhouse you weren't able to slow down in some way.
Similarly, of course I'm not suggesting that you don't need key wonders, or that you don't need to block cultural runaways somehow. But it's still all out tech to internet at the same time. Sure, maybe you don't hit internet as fast as humanly possible if you're building archaeologists and museums, but, you need to tech rush to even have a chance at digging enough artifacts in a deity game. And getting wonders is easier if you hit techs first... My point was that you can't, say, prioritize tourism over tech and have a good chance of winning on deity. In the old cv, you just had to get massive cpt, which didn't require getting much farther than the industrial era. As opposed to requiring near end-game tech ASAP... Clearly it's now an SV. But whatevs.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of tourism and the new CV in general, I just don't like that there's a win button at the end of the tech tree, or that tourism is so hard to get early that you have a massive hole to dig out of once you hit post-industrial. The amount of tpt you can generate pre-hotels and airports is trivial for most civs.
Similarly, of course I'm not suggesting that you don't need key wonders, or that you don't need to block cultural runaways somehow. But it's still all out tech to internet at the same time. Sure, maybe you don't hit internet as fast as humanly possible if you're building archaeologists and museums, but, you need to tech rush to even have a chance at digging enough artifacts in a deity game. And getting wonders is easier if you hit techs first... My point was that you can't, say, prioritize tourism over tech and have a good chance of winning on deity. In the old cv, you just had to get massive cpt, which didn't require getting much farther than the industrial era. As opposed to requiring near end-game tech ASAP... Clearly it's now an SV. But whatevs.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of tourism and the new CV in general, I just don't like that there's a win button at the end of the tech tree, or that tourism is so hard to get early that you have a massive hole to dig out of once you hit post-industrial. The amount of tpt you can generate pre-hotels and airports is trivial for most civs.
My point with pushing tech was simply that the sooner you have NVC and double tourism output, the sooner you start overtaking them. It makes more of a difference than any one other thing you can do because even IG isn't permanent. Yes, clearly you have to get great works or some other source of tourism, you clearly can't ignore it, but the sooner you hit The Internet, the better, unless you're playing as a civ like Brazil, France or Polynesia who can hit such high tourism levels pre-internet that they don't necessarily need it to win. Delaying the internet only makes it harder to catch up, and I just assumed we were talking about bulbing musicians post-internet, here. I mean, I take it as a given on deity that you would need to do that in most games to overtake any cultural powerhouse you weren't able to slow down in some way.
Similarly, of course I'm not suggesting that you don't need key wonders, or that you don't need to block cultural runaways somehow. But it's still all out tech to internet at the same time. Sure, maybe you don't hit internet as fast as humanly possible if you're building archaeologists and museums, but, you need to tech rush to even have a chance at digging enough artifacts in a deity game. And getting wonders is easier if you hit techs first... My point was that you can't, say, prioritize tourism over tech and have a good chance of winning on deity. In the old cv, you just had to get massive cpt, which didn't require getting much farther than the industrial era. As opposed to requiring near end-game tech ASAP... Clearly it's now an SV. But whatevs.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of tourism and the new CV in general, I just don't like that there's a win button at the end of the tech tree, or that tourism is so hard to get early that you have a massive hole to dig out of once you hit post-industrial. The amount of tpt you can generate pre-hotels and airports is trivial for most civs.
For CV you need BOTH, I think is what we're trying to say.Blindly pushing tech isn't going to work either, but so is ignoring tech.
Let's use a simple example...
Against a (somewhat above-average) target civ which has 300 cpt and has a 25k headstart at t200. For the sake of simplicity let's assume this is a duel map and you don't have to worry about other civs.
A) You reach internet rather quickly at t200 ignoring everything else but science... your tpt is 400 (and I think I'm being quite reasonable with this number, if not a bit generous). Let's say you have +70% modifier (and here I'm assuming you got +15% from OB and routes from aesthetics);
You need to close the gap of 25k using your spillover of (400x1.7)-300 = 380.
25k/0.38k = 65 turns. So you finish at t265;
each GM of power 4000 shaves off an equivalent of 4000/380 = 10.5 turns. You spawn 2 GM, and you finish at t244 or so.
B) You reached internet at an above average time at t220, but your tpt is 600.
Spillover of 600x1.7 - 300 = 0.72k
The gap is closed within (25 + 20x0.3)/0.72 = 43 turns; you finish at t263,
with each GM of power 6000 shaving off an equivalent of 6000/720 = 8.33 turns. 2 GM and you finish at t245 or so.
C) You reached internet after going for Hubble and bulbing at t240, your tpt is now 800.
Spill over 800x1.7 - 300 = 1.06k
Gap is closed in (25+ 40x0.3)/1.06 = 35 turns, you finish at 275.
Each GM of power 8000 shaves off the equivalent of 7.5 turns. 2 GM and you finish at t253.
C) seems the worst however...
As you can see, the more tourism after +modifiers you have, the less the relative power of GMs (each GM shaves off less turns); GMs are worth more turns on civs who hate you basically. Conversely, if you've had a sub-par game where your max tourism is low, then faith becomes all the more important.
Also, the lower AI's culture output, the more effective fast teching becomes. Conversely if their culture output is high then the final maximum number of tourism is supreme. If we changed the math such that that same AI now has 500 instead of 300 cpt for example...
A) finishes at t338, each GM for 22.
B) finishes at t287, each GM for 11.5
C) finishes at t292, each GM for 9.3
Here suddenly A is the worst.
Keep in mind that I completely ignored the tourism B and C gets during those 20 and 40 turns before they reached internet respectively.
If cpt is 700 (say a complete runaway) only C has a reasonable chance of finishing CV.
adwcta
King
The most secure CV is wide. I had 800+ tpt without international games a couple games back. Standard wide, peaceful, used Celts.
I'm sure you can hit 1k with France with no problems, and 1.2k with Brazil (although, Brazil's not terribly useful for going wide).
Turn 270ish internet, two endgame musicians total (I had three, but the last one was not needed). Ended the game turn 280ish. Security is about max tourism output and diplo... not hitting internet fast. Wide is just so much better than tall for CV on Deity, where you actually need the extra tourism. Look in Deau's thread for the math, if you're using GMs to bomb, its really all about the base tourism production at endgame.
If tommy can end the game before the AI hits radio, good for him, but there's no way in hell I can do that (yes, I have tried exactly what Tommy's suggesting, but it was far from working). Maybe he supplemented with an army?
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I'm sure you can hit 1k with France with no problems, and 1.2k with Brazil (although, Brazil's not terribly useful for going wide).
Turn 270ish internet, two endgame musicians total (I had three, but the last one was not needed). Ended the game turn 280ish. Security is about max tourism output and diplo... not hitting internet fast. Wide is just so much better than tall for CV on Deity, where you actually need the extra tourism. Look in Deau's thread for the math, if you're using GMs to bomb, its really all about the base tourism production at endgame.
If tommy can end the game before the AI hits radio, good for him, but there's no way in hell I can do that (yes, I have tried exactly what Tommy's suggesting, but it was far from working). Maybe he supplemented with an army?
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anthropophage
Warlord
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I've hit 800+ tpt on a OCC. Was a Poland game, with an awesome Petra cap.
No point in arguing just from anecdotes Sure I've had 980 tpt no IG with 4-city Spain on deity with an Uluru start, but that doesn't prove anything.
If you want to do a comparison of wide VS tall for CV, post a deity challenge, have several players of around the same skill try it, and see which win was smoother.
Sure I've had 980 tpt no IG with 4-city Spain on deity with an Uluru start, but that doesn't prove anything.If you want to do a comparison of wide VS tall for CV, post a deity challenge, have several players of around the same skill try it, and see which win was smoother.
adwcta
King
No point in arguing just from anecdotes
If you want to do a comparison of wide VS tall for CV, post a deity challenge, have several players of around the same skill try it, and see which win was smoother.
Wouldn't that be.... an anecdote?
No wonders pre-Uffizi in my game. River, 2 lux start. No super close neighbors. Continents. Nothing fancy. Nothing weird. Completely reproducible.
Its so weird to argue tall being better for CV when tourism is a scarce resource, wide gets more of it, and the science breakpoint happens before the game ends (unlike a fast science game where tall could end before wide catches up).
Anyway, this is all completely off-topic. Which civ is this about?
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yeah that should be enough to win the game - at least if the number is before modifiers and even if its after it might be enough.
30t*300 = 9.000+2000+- (u gathered some tourism all game) =11.000 that should be enough for most civs pre turn 170.
Now add some musicians for the others ...
anthropophage
Warlord
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//Its so weird to argue tall being better for CV when tourism is a scarce resource, wide gets more of it, and the science breakpoint happens before the game ends (unlike a fast science game where tall could end before wide catches up).\\
Wide get's more per city, tall gets more from wonders, which you stack in your capital, and apply modifiers to with WC resolutions & NVC. A tall player will generally get more tourism through renaissance than a wide player, and then the wide player catches up in industrial. Obviously wide is better in principle, the only limiting factor is how many cities you can plant and how many Archaeological sites you can grab, but tall seems more secure to me, you avoid the diplomatic consequences of settling so many cities and of digging up so many relics.
Wide get's more per city, tall gets more from wonders, which you stack in your capital, and apply modifiers to with WC resolutions & NVC. A tall player will generally get more tourism through renaissance than a wide player, and then the wide player catches up in industrial. Obviously wide is better in principle, the only limiting factor is how many cities you can plant and how many Archaeological sites you can grab, but tall seems more secure to me, you avoid the diplomatic consequences of settling so many cities and of digging up so many relics.
Well it's not just "an" anecdote anymore once you have a sample size and can do some correlation with the data. You put a bunch of several separate anecdotes together then maybe you see a trend.
True that the civ chosen will have an impact on your strategy somewhat... (civs with happiness/faith bonuses can go wider)
I can easily argue tall being better simply because the tall capitol gets more theming wonders due to superior midgame tech rate and things like fast ironworks. Your assumption that wide is better than tall is based on the fact that wide covers more land (if you cover the same amount of land you're going to get the same amount of landmarks); I'm not sure if that's necessarily true on deity that you can grab a lot of land every time.
adwcta
King
One theming wonder more... (that gives bonus equivalent of one museum plus one non-themed great work) Liberty is not THAT slow. If Wide play gets even 2 more museums filled, even with no extra landmarks, it beats out tall in endgame tourism.
This isn't science. The comparison isn't close.
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If you don't take into account landmarks, then why should wide have more artifacts?
If you simply tech faster and reach archaeology earlier, chances are you're going to have more antiquity sites left on the map... and a tall capitol can churn out archaeologists in 2-3 turns in my experience anyway, making science, not hammers, the limiting factor.(and I'm pretty sure the difference is not just one theming wonder... after all... you do need tradition for GE purchases...) and another difference is the theming wonder (depending which one, 2,3, or 4 slots?) is in your capitol, which is NVC, whereas your extra two museums are in other cities, and frankly, if you reach internet at t270, I really wonder if your tech rate is fast enough to fill even tradition's 4 museums + Louvre with artifacts (10 total and you want landmarks instead if those sites are in your lands so you will have to race the AI to outside antiquity sites).
adwcta
King
Fair point about the capital, 2 filled museums then to break even.
Wide has space, as in, actual museum space, for the artifacts. Tall has 8 + 1 + 2. Wide gets 2 more on top of that for each city. You have clearly not tried a wide CV (on any difficulty)... you just beeline to archeology like anyone else (getting there before the AI), and then you spend the next 30 turns building nothing but archeologists, and Lourve, while you rush buy 3 factories. Then rush buy schools in your population centers, and catch up again (because you've probably fallen behind in tech again) to beeline radio.
Not rocket science here. You can claim its harder to set up than tall (it is), but you really don't have a leg to stand on about end-game tourism output (tommy's fast-win strategies aside).
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Wide has space, as in, actual museum space, for the artifacts. Tall has 8 + 1 + 2. Wide gets 2 more on top of that for each city. You have clearly not tried a wide CV (on any difficulty)... you just beeline to archeology like anyone else (getting there before the AI), and then you spend the next 30 turns building nothing but archeologists, and Lourve, while you rush buy 3 factories. Then rush buy schools in your population centers, and catch up again (because you've probably fallen behind in tech again) to beeline radio.
Not rocket science here. You can claim its harder to set up than tall (it is), but you really don't have a leg to stand on about end-game tourism output (tommy's fast-win strategies aside).
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First point, guilty about that (unless you count the sacred sites win I pulled off on an immortal challenge)
Oh, but I don't spend 30 turns building archaeologists
it is simply sufficient to know where those sites are and park a knight/missionary/inquisitor on them before the AI gets there, same with Louvre if no one took Exploration sometimes I build it after Cristo; and there's no need to rush buy all that stuff because my core usually has great infrastructure, having less cities. Maybe I'll rush-buy ONE public school in my cap and hard-build the factory, but that's it. (and I oxford my way into Radio and ideology anyway)... Archaeologists are produced usually after factories/hydro plants and science buildings; i.e. when you have free time.Of course, you do realize that in some occasions it becomes better to sacrifice some (but not too much) endgame output for something else like speed, happiness, peace, or just being able to open Freedom.
Anyway, I think we agree that wide is harder. But for me, security also means less tendencies to make mistakes or more leeway to make them, so harder = not as secure. If you screw it up for example, your tourism might completely tank (say you were so late to archaeology everything not in your borders is taken)
anthropophage
Warlord
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Archaeology is very easy to reach. If you're slow reaching it off a beeline then your empire has bigger problems than the fact that your archaeologists are late...
Justice1337
Sofa King
My point with pushing tech was simply that the sooner you have NVC and double tourism output, the sooner you start overtaking them. It makes more of a difference than any one other thing you can do because even IG isn't permanent. Yes, clearly you have to get great works or some other source of tourism, you clearly can't ignore it, but the sooner you hit The Internet, the better, unless you're playing as a civ like Brazil, France or Polynesia who can hit such high tourism levels pre-internet that they don't necessarily need it to win. Delaying the internet only makes it harder to catch up, and I just assumed we were talking about bulbing musicians post-internet, here. I mean, I take it as a given on deity that you would need to do that in most games to overtake any cultural powerhouse you weren't able to slow down in some way.
Similarly, of course I'm not suggesting that you don't need key wonders, or that you don't need to block cultural runaways somehow. But it's still all out tech to internet at the same time. Sure, maybe you don't hit internet as fast as humanly possible if you're building archaeologists and museums, but, you need to tech rush to even have a chance at digging enough artifacts in a deity game. And getting wonders is easier if you hit techs first... My point was that you can't, say, prioritize tourism over tech and have a good chance of winning on deity. In the old cv, you just had to get massive cpt, which didn't require getting much farther than the industrial era. As opposed to requiring near end-game tech ASAP... Clearly it's now an SV. But whatevs.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of tourism and the new CV in general, I just don't like that there's a win button at the end of the tech tree, or that tourism is so hard to get early that you have a massive hole to dig out of once you hit post-industrial. The amount of tpt you can generate pre-hotels and airports is trivial for most civs.
Yeah, this argument seems to follow the logical form that - you still need tech, so prioritizing tech is the best strat - or - you still have one tech you want to reach, so tech is the best strat. Sort of the same logical style that led to the dismissal of the saved unit maintenance bonuses.
So yeah, kb's rebuttal was correct. Simply because tech is good does not follow that it's either the best or the only important thing.
I think it's best to think of it as a strength of victory issue. Space relies on no strength of victory at all. You win literally with an "I win" button that you assemble. With CV, strength of victory matters. And for those games where you need a stronger victory, it's mathematical that you will want to err on the side of more base metrics at the expense of slower Science. Because the situation where you will never get there is far more likely the more you are depending on an earlier start.
For how this relates to a Deity tier list, the argument was made that it's pointless to discuss things unless people's fundamentals of play are on the same level. I pointed out that what the ideal fundamentals are is hardly incontestible, and that one of the purposes for this guide was to spark people's thoughts about strategies/civs that players may have been ignorant of or undervaluing. The point wasn't to learn how to build early NC and slot Universities every game or you are doing it wrong, all other bonuses are zero, as the line goes.
KmDubya
King
Another way for a CV without internet is with Autocracy and cult of personality. Each shared war gets you+50% tourism, two wars is the same as internet. You can get this at modern, maybe even industrial, age with six policies of which 2 could be free.
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