[GS] Bonuses to unimproved tiles

[King of Prussia]

The one possible upside to the shipyard improving unimproved tiles would be if a city gets hit by a hurricane and all your improved tiles got wiped out, you still have some production. With that said, a hurricane could easily destroy your harbor and the buildings, rendering that boost useless until its repaired.(unless it provides it even when damaged?) I guess it gives you some production in your cities until you get the very very late game improvements for water tiles if you don't spam fisheries everywhere.

it is hard to say until we have the patch notes to know what changes were made to repairing districts and disasters. maybe some improvements to ME will help too.



edit i still agree one of the biggest issues i have with coastal cities is that the vast majority of districts and wonders require land. getting some small island with only a few/no slots really limits your choices. if some districts later on where allowed to be planted on the coast, it would help make less annoying.

 

[7daysofwar]

Now Shipyards give production to unimproved Coastal Tiles.

Isn't it unimproved coastal tiles because we have the "goddess of the sea" pantheon that gives +1 production to fishing boats and that pantheon would become obsolete because you would get production anyway? (I think it is a stupid reason but it might explain it)

 

[Ziad]

Well it never becomes obsolete as you would otherwise not get production from an improved tile.

No need to overthink this. You'll still want to improve with boats ASAP to reap the benefits. The only awkward window is between building a Shipyard and researching Colonialism (Same era). Even then, for newer cities, you're probably itching for production more than food on coast.

It comes down to actual decisions. Do you need that one production or food/housing?

Game needs more of this not less.

 

[Victoria]

Kupe with his fishing boat bomb is going to seriously boost An early harbour rush and the coral reef porn just went to centrefold with the mausoleum as well....which you can add to that list @acluewithout

 

[Sostratus]

These changes encourage player agency and have a depth that on the surface is simple to understand but depending on the conditions of the city and the other factors at play is subtle and deep.

From a game design perspective these are all good things.

Setting aside fisheries for a sec:
Having Mass production, a very late renaissance tech grant +1 production to every sea tile that isn't a fishing boat and then colonialism, an early industrial civic give +1 to all fishing boats, is a bit odd.
Functionally, why not just have shipyards give +1 to all sea tiles then? There's no choice involved; fishing boats are always better than unimproved sea and they've essentially got a two-part buff that just adds production to every sea tile, with both parts coming almost at the same time. (Big question on whether this will apply to lakes as well, for huey action)

Then the fishery, sea-stead, and offshore wind turbines, all cancel out that +1. Seasteads next to fishing boats will be a net gain, wind farms went from +2 to just +1, fisheries only even if liang is there. If there is one thing civ6 has largely done, it is stacking positive numbers instead of a mix of positives and negatives. (For example, why not just make the shipyard apply to all tiles and make the wind farm +1 directly?)

The idea of a built out harbor city having 2/1/3 empty sea tiles to work is really nice, but this does seem to nip at the heels of the GS sea improvements a lot. It's also incongruous with the other two harbor buildings applying to all tiles, which irks my OCD side.

 

[Ziad]

There's a reason everyone loves Auckland. +1 production in all sea tiles would be arguably OP on top of the existing adjacency bonus (are we forgetting this?). I would rather not have that bonus removed in favor of homogenizing yield distribution.

Kupe with his fishing boat bomb is going to seriously boost An early harbour rush and the coral reef porn just went to centrefold with the mausoleum as well....which you can add to that list @acluewithout

Wilhelmina polder yield porn reddit posts are about to multiply.

 

[acluewithout]

Setting aside fisheries for a sec:
Having Mass production, a very late renaissance tech grant +1 production to every sea tile that isn't a fishing boat and then colonialism, an early industrial civic give +1 to all fishing boats, is a bit odd.
Functionally, why not just have shipyards give +1 to all sea tiles then? There's no choice involved; fishing boats are always better than unimproved sea and they've essentially got a two-part buff that just adds production to every sea tile, with both parts coming almost at the same time. (Big question on whether this will apply to lakes as well, for huey action)

Then the fishery, sea-stead, and offshore wind turbines, all cancel out that +1. Seasteads next to fishing boats will be a net gain, wind farms went from +2 to just +1, fisheries only even if liang is there. If there is one thing civ6 has largely done, it is stacking positive numbers instead of a mix of positives and negatives. (For example, why not just make the shipyard apply to all tiles and make the wind farm +1 directly?)

The idea of a built out harbor city having 2/1/3 empty sea tiles to work is really nice, but this does seem to nip at the heels of the GS sea improvements a lot. It's also incongruous with the other two harbor buildings applying to all tiles, which irks my OCD side.

This.

The Shipyard change is ultimately a bit silly. You’re just going to have this feeling you’re adding in production, taking it away, and then adding it in again (maybe).

And all to get an extra hammer on some reefs?

I just don’t think people want to work unimproved tiles anyway, as a general rule.

I’m sure mathematically this buff works, and somehow lifts the production curve for coastals in just the right way. But subjectively it seems like a “not fun” change.

 

[Sostratus]

Wilhelmina polder yield porn reddit posts are about to multiply.

With the Mausoleum, yes... but sadly, no extra production for the tulip fields...
Although lakes in a huey empire can get to 3/2/3 which is nice.

 

[Architect]

Its really unfair to consider this change without fisheries and then use seasteads and windfarms to justify why its not that great. This change is about the early to late game problems of coastal towns. Not the end game phase where seasteads and windfarms come into play!

Right now it is always better to put a fishery on a tile even if Liang is not in the city. No choices, no player agency and lack of depth in design. Its just tedious to move her around and build fisheries everywhere you can.

With the new shipyard you choose which tiles to improve instead of just improve everything limited by builder charges. How much housing do I really need from my fisheries? How much food do I need from fisheries to grow into this housing? I am deciding what to do with coast tiles in each of my cities now. The number one problem with coastal towns is production and now I have to decide just how much I'm getting from the shipyard.

If I just plop Liang in one city then every other city gets Liang's bonus to production without Liang and no fishery! So the design has depth. I can just use Liang like the AI and still come out Ok or I can plan my whole fishery strategy around moving Liang from town to town. If I am going to move Liang around from city to city and create only the most productive food based fisheries (ones next to two or more fishing boats for example) then each city is a plan, likely with map tacks, and that's something I really enjoy. Very much like how I love IZ planning now.

Choices, planning, and active use of a governor is the definition of player agency. Its not evening out the tiles and its way better than just flat +1 production to all coastal tiles which is another no player agency design choice.

And the worst case of this change could be stated like this: "The Shipyard now gives +1 production to reef tiles." We wouldn't even be having this conversation instead we would be saying well that's a good buff but it sure isn't inspired and makes all the tiles the same!

 

[acluewithout]

Its really unfair to consider this change without fisheries and then use seasteads and windfarms to justify why its not that great. This change is about the early to late game problems of coastal towns. Not the end game phase where seasteads and windfarms come into play!

Right now it is always better to put a fishery on a tile even if Liang is not in the city. No choices, no player agency and lack of depth in design. Its just tedious to move her around and build fisheries everywhere you can.

With the new shipyard you choose which tiles to improve instead of just improve everything limited by builder charges. How much housing do I really need from my fisheries? How much food do I need from fisheries to grow into this housing? I am deciding what to do with coast tiles in each of my cities now. The number one problem with coastal towns is production and now I have to decide just how much I'm getting from the shipyard.

If I just plop Liang in one city then every other city gets Liang's bonus to production without Liang and no fishery! So the design has depth. I can just use Liang like the AI and still come out Ok or I can plan my whole fishery strategy around moving Liang from town to town. If I am going to move Liang around from city to city and create only the most productive food based fisheries (ones next to two or more fishing boats for example) then each city is a plan, likely with map tacks, and that's something I really enjoy. Very much like how I love IZ planning now.

Choices, planning, and active use of a governor is the definition of player agency. Its not evening out the tiles and its way better than just flat +1 production to all coastal tiles which is another no player agency design choice.

And the worst case of this change could be stated like this: "The Shipyard now gives +1 production to reef tiles." We wouldn't even be having this conversation instead we would be saying well that's a good buff but it sure isn't inspired and makes all the tiles the same!

I’ve just replied to you in another thread.

There’s some good points here - I’ll think about them some more.

I think my main gripe though is that you’ll end up adding in then taking away and then maybe adding back in an extra hammer. That flip flopping feels like it’ll be underwhelming. It’ll really suck getting an extra Hammer for Fishing Boats at Colonialism if you end up thinking “geez, I could have just not built the flipping Fishing Boat and I'd be already up +1 hammer!”

I agree Shipyards giving a flat +1 hammer would suck. I think +1 hammer to Reefs would be a bit random too. Frankly, I think FXS should just drop the change. If Coastals really need the extra hammers, just make the Harbour Specialists give an extra hammer.

 

[Architect]

I agreed in the other thread that the fishing boat interaction is weird but I don't think its design killing weird. This happens with all unimproved feature abilities like the Maori too. Its annoying and I've removed features I've added forgetting it would take something away I wanted.

You have to do something with the production of coastal cities. I think if you drop the shipyard change you have lost the real buff to coastal cities that is going to make the difference in how they feel to invest in them. I think a shipyard coming online will feel like a mini coal plant for coastal cities. I think specialists are not the answer because they are hard to use and junk for the most part.

This design and unimproved feature buffs in general are something the AI can't really screw up either and so being terrible at the improvement mini game is the baseline for the AI and in this case its pretty good. The fact that we humans can exploit all the little nuances is par for the course in Civ games.

 

[_hero_]

I think my main gripe though is that you’ll end up adding in then taking away and then maybe adding back in an extra hammer. That flip flopping feels like it’ll be underwhelming.

Frankly I don't think the issue is as big as you think. Builder charges have a hammer cost. Spending extra charges to temporarily gain 1 hammer per turn for an era or 2 isn't all that efficient, especially considering each builder costs more than the last. You say the flip flopping feels underwhelming. That's because it isn't really worth doing.

 

[acluewithout]

This happens with all unimproved feature abilities like the Maori too.

Well, yes. But that’s just it - “everyone” complained about that, and so now FXS have said they’ll do something to address it.

I agree the issue isn’t game breaking. It’s just going to annoy me (perhaps more than it annoys you, if at all, which is fair enough).

Frankly I don't think the issue is as big as you think. Builder charges have a hammer cost. Spending extra charges to temporarily gain 1 hammer per turn for an era or 2 isn't all that efficient, especially considering each builder costs more than the last. You say the flip flopping feels underwhelming. That's because it isn't really worth doing.

Sorry, but I don’t quite get this point.

You’re already improving Sea Resources to gain the extra food, gold and housing. FXS have now provided an extra hammer. The hammer is mid / late game, so yes it’s already less valuable relatively speaking.

But the problem is the Shipyard bonus makes the Fishing Boats extra hammer effectively even less valuable. So... it’s a small buff ... that’s then made even smaller ... how is that helping Coastal Cities?

It’s similar to the issue with Harbours and Commercial Hubs. A CH in a City with a Harbour is less valuable because you don’t get a second trade route. But at least that’s balanced out though by the ability to get additional adjacencies, which can be leveraged via policies, Free Inquiry and Reyna.

There’s no real trade off between the Shipyard +1 hammer and the fishing boat +1 hammer. Or, if there is, it feels like a kinda silly trade off - build a Fishing boat and ... temporarily lose +1 hammer... ? Or, you’ve already built a Fishing Boat, and you build a Shipyard and ... it doesn’t do anything really (except for some random reef)?

It’s not a big deal. But it does seem silly to me.

 

[Ziad]

I'm confused about the idea that any loss is happening. You are gaining one production in tiles that dont have it in the current patch. This is a net gain no matter how you spin it, at least for 98% of the game til you unlock those uber tile improvements.

Shipyards still have the adjacency bonus. That is the primary production benefit here and it is the actual source of production.

Lighthouses and Seaports mainly buff tiles so naturally they come with less conditions
If they had removed the adjacency bonus, I would agree that making the bonus apply to all tiles makes sense.

Normally I achieve around 8-16 production with Shipyards in cities that work a couple of water tiles. The Shipyard would need to provide like 2-4 prod per tile to make up for it, then add that extra bonus now.

The Shipyard was already strong. Now it buffs some extra tiles that you havent gotten around to improving.... or dont want to improve.

Regardless you didnt put any additional effort to gain that production in that tile, and so when you make the active decision to replace that production with Food/Housing sources, you do so leveraging the opportunity cost that comes with it

They could have just added +1 production to all tiles, not added the fishing boat bonus, and nerfed Seastead and offshore Windfarms by 1 production to reach the current state of balance they found.

But that would, for example, overbuff Indonesia and Wilhelmina, make the Fishing Boat the only improvement that has no scaling, and be a nerf to cities without Harbors that have water tiles... that include lakes.

I dont mind the current implementation as that way we have some initiative, but I can also see how it can be unpleasant to some.

 

[Victoria]

I’m with @Ziad on this point.
The coastal city is better regardless. Fisheries are not just for shipyard or coast either. I have become more of a fan of them in lakes lately. Now the have been imbibed with housing this also is also of additional value, Perjaps more than many appreciates because fisheries do push your food a lot.
Fisheries give jobs (housing) and feed a population, a little production is nice but the bottom line is a fat water coastal city with Laing can be full of Very powerful coastal tiles purely because Auckland is in the game. Maybe they have tweaked auckland

 

[acluewithout]

Well, if @Victoria is okay with the changes then I give up. Clearly I’ve made a Mountain out of a Fish Pond...

Frankly, it’s probably only the Fishing Boats that irk me, and it’s not a big deal regardless. I don’t build shipyards in many Coastal Cities (they’re a great building, but you don’t need many) and it’s just not such a big thing anyway.

But I do feel the hammers on, off, on is needlessly frustrating. A fly in my Fish Pond ointment, if you will.

Hmm.

I really can’t think of any other improvement that actually reduces a yield, which will be the case for Fishing Boats (prior to Colonialism) and Fisheries.

Māori lose their bonus if they build lumbermills, but indeed people have criticised that.

Mines and Quarries reduce Appeal, which is a thing. But appeal is rarely relevant.

National Parks require you to remove improvements over eg Forests. But that’s a very different beast.

 

[Archon_Wing]

/shrugs

It's hard for me to get into this conversation, because I sorta have to pretend fisheries are useful-- I think they're a waste of a governor promotion, much less builder charges. Even with the change I would still not pick them in most serious games. So I would actually benefit from the changes since I've always built shipyards and rarely a fishery.

.So there's this talk about boosting fisheries and I get a little interested but it's balanced out by this. Truth be told, I thought it was replacing the shipyard bonus, so I guess this is a net gain if you settle cities with little resources.... which are really low priority cities to begin with.

All and all, you're probably not going to get my attention unless you delete Celestial Navigation. Part of this is because I refuse to pay $2 for Auckland, but I guess it's not about me and my problems.

 

[Ziad]

Well they rarely if ever include tech tree changes in the previews, so perhaps we'll see some improvement on that front.

 

[Victoria]

Clearly I’ve made a Mountain out of a Fish Pond...

Do not ever assume what I say is correct. we are equally as fallible, we are all human.

I believe you are thinking about it the wrong way around because who would not put fishing boats out before a shipyard? So your fishing boats are out and then your shipyard kicks in and gives +1 production to other tiles but does not affect your fishing boats or fisheries because that would truly make them OP.
So to me the mechanic works well in my head because I think about the sequence of events not just the mechanic.

Equally I can understand sometimes we short circuit over some logic and it can be hard to reverse think it but feel that is what you need to do here.

 

[UWHabs]

Do not ever assume what I say is correct. we are equally as fallible, we are all human.

I believe you are thinking about it the wrong way around because who would not put fishing boats out before a shipyard? So your fishing boats are out and then your shipyard kicks in and gives +1 production to other tiles but does not affect your fishing boats or fisheries because that would truly make them OP.
So to me the mechanic works well in my head because I think about the sequence of events not just the mechanic.

Equally I can understand sometimes we short circuit over some logic and it can be hard to reverse think it but feel that is what you need to do here.

Yeah, that's my take too. Probably 95% of the time I'm going to have my fishing boats out before I have a shipyard built. The other cases would be distant resources, in which case I also think that the time between researching and building the shipyard vs getting to colonialism for the fishing boat bonus most games would be very small, if non-existant.

The case where I could see this come into play would be for Fisheries, since they don't get the production bonus, and when I actually have time to get Liang with the promotion over to a city will vary a lot. So there might be some cases there where I get the shipyard before the improvement goes down. And obviously the late game sea improvements as well are very likely to come after the shipyard, although I rarely even get to that point so not even sure if I've ever built one. But even for Fisheries, it's then basically a debate between 1 production vs X food and and .5 housing. So yeah, still weird to potentially lose production when you place an improvement down, but not a huge deal to me (since all this is stuff we get extra that we didn't get before anyways).