Boogaboo's C3C tales: tiny/small on Deity/Sid

[boogaboo]

Your analysis of early wars is fascinating. I presume much of what you say is applicable to regular (ie non hof) games in that it may be a good tactic to try very early wars at Sid/deity even allowing for the insane disparity between the human and AI forces. I am usually far too afraid to attack very early.

On Sid it looks like I need to expand a bit when I can and attack only when ready to take at least 2 cities and get the GA started (with the Egyptians).

I just had a game where I had a great chance of early expansion but blew it because I trusted the AI not to attack a (totally) unprotected city...
So I went for settlers and after the third I got war declared without even a warrior..
And I thought agressiveness level lowest is good enough to start with..

It could have been a great game, since the starting position allowed me to do a 4-turn settler factory with the capital and without Granary!!

Look -

 

[boogaboo]

I just had a game with the Egyptians where I had to behave like the Persians too early in my war.
Except a personal high of 33% domination of the world, I didn't build a proper settler factory (usually there ain't enough time), and I thought of a new way of doing it right with Egyptians (vs. the Ports and the Japs):

I want to be in an island with the japs, and only later be visited by the portugese, who will be mainly stuck on their own island harrassing the Japs.

This requires Mapfinder... hmmm . perhaps 2morrow.
I attach the save and a screenshot.
I won't continue it (but I've quit at 170BC to see how the game went behind the scenes.. you can do it 2, ver 1.22 )

 

[EMan]

Boogaboo, have you seen this thread on the Egyptians?

Egyptian Civilzation: War Academy Article!

How's this quote grab ya: "In summary, Egyptian play in and of itself remains essentially the same. What has changed is the effects of that play are slightly weaker. Egypt will maintain its status of one of the top – “newbie” favorites. However, among experienced and higher level players they will definitely fall to a middle of the pack - 2nd tier."!

I was surprised that he thought it was a Second-tier civilization! ...... ........

 

[boogaboo]

Boogaboo, have you seen this thread on the Egyptians?

Egyptian Civilzation: War Academy Article!

How's this quote grab ya: "In summary, Egyptian play in and of itself remains essentially the same. What has changed is the effects of that play are slightly weaker. Egypt will maintain its status of one of the top – “newbie” favorites. However, among experienced and higher level players they will definitely fall to a middle of the pack - 2nd tier."!

I was surprised that he thought it was a Second-tier civilization! ...... ........

Yep, now I've read it, and he's right.
I can't do it good enough in any variation with Egypt.
I'm hunting back with Aztec from now on.
If I'll fail, I may go Persian or other civ with a more advanced A/D/M.
The middle ground between Aztec and Persia has fallen for me here.

As I said, I'm going vs. Englans and Portugal.
They will NOT survive! I hope

 

[boogaboo]

Aztec is going well!!

I've started to work again with MapFinder since now I know what I'm doing after a bit practice.
was almost doing a high, when I had a bad-luck-streak and went down instead..

This was about the best position I was in.
I took the screenshot to laugh about the English stack going to a city which I disbanded right after the screenshot.
Notice I have almost cleaned the AIs from cities, leaving 2-3 for each (including the Cap), and was going to take another 1 each when I failed and was damaged without moves in front of one 1-2 HP spearman...

It's hard bargaining for peace when you didn't take any city.. and the stack IS moving..
Soon I will break the record!

 

[boogaboo]

Well,

I now own a dog. (You can somehow find that offtopic thread, and the links here...?..??.. )

Only after a burst of FPS games (CoD and BF1942) was I able to return to the reality of civ with pleasure.

So, I'm still going for Schon's tiny record, but on C3C (Demigod).
I hope he'll give up and let me complete my wanted streak.

Current strategy log.. :

I'm doing it almost OCC style -
I only want a river, but a settler is a must, and a few cows around never hurt noone for a good game. Neither do Furs for their 3 shields under a GA
A good city is a 15+ shield producer - JAG a turn.
The river gives the city its' starting 3 food tile, and trade.

However, placing the city and it's resources is only one factor.
The early attacks must succeed, since the Spearmen come after that, and with a good attack, I can leave them with the capital before or after peace.
This must be done to both civs. The chances are poor, but it has to be done.
Then, a massive JAG attack at the capitals, perhaps with an archer..

A major factor not mentioned but is heavily inlined is the distance to those civs and the tiles on the way for the JAG. A mountain can be good if it is not surrounded by other mountains...

Anyway, the archer use is still in question for such games, but I'm having fun trying maps while Ootchy (my dog) is asleep and I'm headed for a weekend.

 

[boogaboo]

Ok..
I just farted a HoF record..
Didn't pass Schon. Finished one turn later..
Had I finished one turn earlier I would have got about (5 is an estimate for a turn's score, 240 is the bonus) 26090+240-5 = 26325, which is exactly 50 points below him. I will make it my current #1 and hopefully it will become my #2..

Tomorrow I'll tell you all about this great game, but today - I have a question I'm posting in the rules forum and here :

There is some scoring bug (C3C 1.22)... the "victory status" screen is showing 26090 as score, but the "score" screen is showing 26091...
When I go to the HoF screen (not in the forum, when the game ends), it is marked as 26090.

What should I submit??

 

[boogaboo]

I have submitted the game (26091 points).

I think the attached pic says it all.
I always take saves at great games.
This is from 2850BC, when I realized that if I manage to survive the English attack on my capital, I am left with 2 submissive nations - both left only with the capital and can't even produce settlers.

Hell, I was spanked by 5 3HP warriors vs my 2 4HP JAGs + another 1/4 HP JAG.
Only one JAG survived, with 1 HP, but "the people" loved me and the English surrendered all their possesions (except the Cap )
The race was on to eliminate London, then go and handle Lisbon, which should produce a settler soon (Lisbon is 2, London 1 ).

Note that I'm not at war with Portugal anymore, and my workers/slaves have "skipped" both the English and the river to the right.
This enabled the future road to Lisbon.

 

[boogaboo]

By 2590BC, I had enough to attack London - 4 JAGs and one archer.
The archer was killed, so I made another one..

By 2470BC (3 turns later - the screenshot), I've gathered almost enough power to attack Lisbon, and the Portugese settler (with a warrior on ruins..) was about to build the city (this is a screenshot at the end of turn).
Once the city was built, attacking and killing the 3HP warrior shouldn't be such a hard task... or is it?!
2 JAGs, a veteran and an elite were assigned, but I foolishly attacked with the veteran, and made the warrior a 3/4HP..
The elite was killed making the (same) warrior 1/4HP.
I just tried this save the other way aroung and took the city with the veteran.. Bad luck.
I had more bad luck in my first full-strike at for Lisbon.
Only the second worked..

You will be able to have these saves in my submitted zip file.
Here it is the pic -

 

[superslug]

Good to see you're still going at it boogaboo!

 

[boogaboo]

Thnx, Superdrug!

I was on a horrible settings for mapfinder, and decided to move to other AIs and settings, since I'm on demigod, not Sid or Deity, and using huts.

So, my ranking of attributes has changes for this setting (the AI won't have a size 7 city..) -
1. Religious (not many temples can be built in this time )
2. Commercial (less corruption, so what)
3. Industrious (faster workers)
4. Expansionist (scouts take my huts and know where I am.)

India is 1+2, so it is my first AI.
Egypt and the Hittites have an ancient GA, so.. nop.
All that is left is the French Arabs and Americans.
Who to choose as second AI when I come home to operate mapfinder???

Wet settings will not prevail since they ruined some great games where some of the (tiny) map was virtually unaccesible for my JAGs
Only Dry.
5 Billion years will stay, and I think cold will stay also, so the poles won't be occupied, but I have to check the SP guide again first (when I find it).

Please advise -
French Arabs or American as second AI?

 

[bed_head7]

I am no one to give advice, but I would take the French. That way you avoid expansionistic completely, which seems easily the most dangerous trait to me.

 

[boogaboo]

I am no one to give advice, but I would take the French. That way you avoid expansionistic completely, which seems easily the most dangerous trait to me.

I did check them out (French), and now I suspect that since commercial civs tend to have low corruption, they make more cities.. is this true?

Expansionistic aren't really expansionistic as I understand it.
They just get to scout and have goodies..

 

[bed_head7]

I have never really noticed the lower corruption/more city thing, but it sort of makes sense. And I mentioned the expansionistic thing because, as you said, they have scouts for finding your cities, so no scouts probably means they won't know where to send SODs. Or at least that is what I thought. But you have much more experience with this sort of thing.

 

[boogaboo]

Well, I can't call a bunch of AI warriors SOD, but OK..

I've just had a totally normal game, which ended in yet another high below schon.. 24 points below.. in the same turn!
When I'll submit my number 1, this will be my number 2, so Schon won't feel like he's third..

 

[bed_head7]

Even if warriors, 16 or 24 or however many it is would overwhelm any defense you had, wouldn't it? And you ranked Expansionist last anyway, so wouldn't it be best to avoid it completely? But I won't argue, since the only reason I know anything about this is from reading what you have written.

 

[boogaboo]

Even if warriors, 16 or 24 or however many it is would overwhelm any defense you had, wouldn't it? And you ranked Expansionist last anyway, so wouldn't it be best to avoid it completely? But I won't argue, since the only reason I know anything about this is from reading what you have written.

I don't plan to fight the enemy warriors.. In fact, I plan not to .

Another issue -
I couldn't beat Schon's record easily, and probably could have spent a few more weeks trying to.
A few days ago, I talked with him, and he reminded me that I'm playing C3C when his record was on PTW.
We compared, and I noticed that if I had not tried to grow to size 7 in C3C, but just play PTW... I could amass many more Jags than on PTW, for the price of 1 food (agricultural trait) and 3 more enemy warriors (to avoid).

So, I ran MapFinder for PTW, and went to sleep after some hard days today and yesterday.

I did it ( ) in my very first game, and I plan to play more tonight to reach a good high so I won't have to come back too early to this high..
I just have too many maps waiting for me..

I finished at 2630 (the record will be 2590).
It is already 7 turns earlier than Schon's high, and I plan to beat it tonight.
Enjoy the screenshot.

 

[boogaboo]

Well, I just ran out of maps.. so I decided to put my knowledge on PTW Deity/tiny here - because it's fresh!

First, I noticed a difference I didn't know between the PTW 10-shield JAG and the C3C 15-shield JAG -
the C3C one can actually attack twice!
I think it cannot attack two units, but it CAN attack workers, then a unit or vice versa.
For me, it still ain't worth it!

I got a 2590BC and 2550BC record, but I think I missed a few games that could have ended even at or near 2800BC (!!!).
I won't submit until I get some real good game.

The "few" musts I use in my game (I join my worker at 4000BC) -
1. Good starting position -
Either 2 forests or alike (5 shields) for a 4-turn barracks and 2-turn JAG thereafter.

* A variation that I accept is a grassland-cattle and a forest.
Besides these 2 I must have at least one bonus grassland in the 1-radius for this variation.
I use this to build my barrack in 5 turns, and tghe first JAG microes to 3 turns effectively (4-3-3 build).
I get my first JAG 2 turns after, but the city is at size 3 and growing when the second JAG appears 2 turns afterwards.
This requires a bit of micro, but makes the city reach size 4(with furs)/5 fast enough to move to 1 JAG per turn.

2. Closeness to the enemies -
Sometimes being close to one and have the other one in the same direction is enough, but this is vital to attack and reach them soon, as well as for avoiding the stack at war and control where they are.

3. Passable enough terrain-
This is the need for quick moves of the JAG near the capital, and on the way to the AI territories.
The wrong type can hold you back for needless turns.

4. A good attack on the second cities and the first settlers to pop from the AI capital -
This is the most vital issue.
The settlers are not always a must - you can leave them alone and let them build a city!
Then, since you RAZED one of their cities (the second WAS more important then the new third city), so you can demand this city upon peace.
Sometimes this requires to let them know you are strong, and blow away some warriors or take a few slaves.
Even dummy threat to their capital can sometimes convince the AI to give you a city for peace.

I also discovered that it is sometimes possible to wipe out an entire nation at the first attack.
The capital is only protected by 2 warriors before about 3400BC!

More to come!!

 

[boogaboo]

-- SOME "starting position" INFO --

I want to add to the "starting position" that I specified these common starts, but there are others - I always rather a plains-cattle over a forest for example, and not only furs can make the city produce 10 shields at size 4 - also building the city on plains-cattle gives you this advantage.

Also, in many cases, I can take slaves and join them instead of growing my city - I can produce no food until they join... but.. then I produce 10 shields and don't care about food.

-- STATUS --

MapFinder - I'm playing on max domination of 310, and want to start with 1 cattle.
I'm surprised I can't beat my first game, although it appears it was real good..
I'm sure it can be done, but I start to wonder how many games must I play until I find this game.
I'll play a few more days, then submit.

 

[boogaboo]

Well, I got to know the AI by heart, and still have too much bad luck.

==== AI city kill TRICK ====

I want to tell just a bit of AI stupidity -
One of the major issues is when I have to decide when to quit on a bad game.
A failure to capture a city in the first attack on an AI was a sure restart.
Now it is not.
The AI has 1 or 2 warriors inside the city, depending on the time I caught where the city is, and how scared they are ( = many JAGs were touching the borders/threatening overall in the game!).
If I fail, a spearman appears, and I redraw my wounded forces (if any). :/
Then, the AI makes a usual mistake - he does have a 3-HP spearman in the city, so he feels protected, and moves out all of his warriors for the attack of my far away city.
This is when I come with 1-2 JAGs and have a second try on the city, knowing there is only one protector.
This is done within 3-5 turns, so peace would not have happened anyway before that. (minimum 4 turns).

==== Bad Luck Part 1 ====

I had a game now that is perfect to describe what it needs for me to pass myself on a GOOD high -
I COULD have won at 2710BC (3 turns super-high!!), but nooooo -
There is something about the last attack that you have to do a "no guts, no glory" attack with whatever you got.
Here is my attack (at 2750BC) on the last AI city, size 2, no settler around.
3 4-HP JAGs against 2 3-HP spearmen.
None of the spearmen died!!! They were left with 1 and 2 HP