Boosting the Arabs

[Louis XXIV]

It feels like everything the Arabs had either wasn't that good or has been severely undercut.

They had a decent UU. It was a ranged knight that could pack a punch and then retreat. However, then the Mongols came. While the Mongol Keshik was actually weaker, it was far more mobile, which made it unlikely another unit would counter-attack it.

Now it's arguably best feature, the Bazaar, is being undercut by the Dutch UA. The Bazaar gives you two of each luxury, which allows you to sell one for a profit or more luxuries. The problem is the Dutch UA essentially counts every luxury automatically as two since you can sell away all your luxuries and still get the happiness benefits from them.

Finally, no one really seems to think the UA is all that good. At a minimum, the Inca will probably get more gold from trade routes because of lower upkeep.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix them? While there are probably plenty of complex ways to help them out, such as giving them gold or science boosts involving religion, I'm going to suggest things far simpler.

Most importantly. Remove the horse requirement from the Camel Archer. This isn't all that unorthodox since the Siamese Elephant doesn't require horses either. Also, they made this change to the Mohawk Warrior, which also seemed to be lacking (and made the Iroquois way too one-dimensional).

That would probably be enough, but, if not, make the gold bonus a multiplier. Instead of just +1, it'll actually be even more useful for larger trade routes.

 

[King_Course]

I don't think they need a fix, and your suggestion is a punch in a pillow.

 

[bonafide11]

Removing the horse requirement really isn't much of a boost. Horses are never hard to come by in my games by the time of knights.

I would hate to see the Arabs in the game without any religious bonus. They should get some sort of religious bonus, but I don't know what as I don't know enough about the religious system yet. Perhaps their religion should spread faster or they should get extra gold from it or something.

 

[Louis XXIV]

While it's true horses aren't hard to come by, there's still an advantage to not having a cap.

King_Course, the problem isn't so much with the Arabs as originally intended, but with the other civs that do similar things better. What does "punch in a pillow" mean?

 

[Scaramanga]

I've thought a religious boost with deserts would be appropriate and unique. I heard it said that "Islam is the desert".

 

[Scaramanga]

What does "punch in a pillow" mean?

Muted blow? That's my guess.

 

[Buccaneer]

Surprising suggestion since the Camel Archers are probably the second most powerful unique unit (after the Keishiks) in the game. Just because the Mongols came later, it doesn't make them a less powerful unit.

 

[bonafide11]

I've thought a religious boost with deserts would be appropriate and unique. I heard it said that "Islam is the desert".

I like that idea.

 

[chazzycat]

Do we have confirmation on the Dutch UA? That seems really OP...

Otherwise I have no problem with the Arabs, they are pretty solid with the bazaars and camel archers. UA could be more interesting, but it should be weak because bazaars are so good.

 

[vexing]

arabs are a top tier civ, they have a really good uu and one of the top two ubs. they don't need a boost.

 

[Louis XXIV]

But is their UB all that good once the Dutch have the same thing without needing to even build a building?

 

[Scarpa]

You're cherry picking abilities of 3 different civs, all of which are a little bit better, but the Arabs have them all at once. That's not even counting the double oil which is huge both militarily and economically.

'The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts' applies here, I think.

 

[Louis XXIV]

While I agree and usually do a sum is greater than parts approach, I've always found the UA to be lackluster and justified it by the Bazaar making up for it. However, there's a risk of it being a civ that doesn't do anything particularly well.

 

[King_Course]

While it's true horses aren't hard to come by, there's still an advantage to not having a cap.

King_Course, the problem isn't so much with the Arabs as originally intended, but with the other civs that do similar things better. What does "punch in a pillow" mean?

It means to make an action with no real effect.

 

[Gucumatz]

I agree with Louis XXIV.

The Dutch can trade their luxuries away without the building right away. The Camel Archer needs a horse and to be honest while a decent UU it is outclassed in many aspects by other units. The only place where it is truly better is in multiplayer than the keshik. But even then, MANY other units are preferred over them for good reason (in multi).

Their Unique ability is outclassed by the Dutch and Inca. As a whole the Dutch seem to do a lot better than the Arabs can and same goes for the Inca.

As a whole the Arabs are being undercut for sure and I would be surprised if they don't upgrade them.

 

[MadDjinn]

the arabs are fine.

They're a power civ, no matter what. Use of them is more important than the technical concept.

and the Camel archer is potent in it's own right. Sure, you don't get the 5 move of a mongol Keshik, but the Camel archer is more powerful, so it doesn't need to hide.

 

[Snoopaloop]

I agree with Louis XXIV.

The Dutch can trade their luxuries away without the building right away. The Camel Archer needs a horse and to be honest while a decent UU it is outclassed in many aspects by other units. The only place where it is truly better is in multiplayer than the keshik. But even then, MANY other units are preferred over them for good reason (in multi).

Their Unique ability is outclassed by the Dutch and Inca. As a whole the Dutch seem to do a lot better than the Arabs can and same goes for the Inca.

As a whole the Arabs are being undercut for sure and I would be surprised if they don't upgrade them.

We don't even know exactly how the Dutch tulips work yet. Does the unique improvement to make them come very late in the game? Is it only buildable on marsh...what if (even with a start bias) you only have 3 marsh in your area. So you save them late game for the 3 tulip fields...2 to trade. Meanwhile the Arabs have had a large amount of luxories doubled cause of their UB much earlier.


Doesn't matter...we DON'T know how it works..so saying the Dutch seem to do a lot better than the Arabs can is a joke.

Combining two different civ UA's to try to outclass one isn't right in this example, I think.

Saying this, I still like the faith from desert idea...though I do not think its necessary their UA is changed.

EDIT: Maybe a change to the Arabs, could be with their UB...it gets +2 gold from oil and oasis tiles. Maybe +2 gold for oil, but +(x)faith for the desert oasis would be interesting. I don't think its necessary again though, just thinking aloud here.

 

[Gucumatz]

We don't even know exactly how the Dutch tulips work yet. Does the unique improvement to make them come very late in the game? Is it only buildable on marsh...what if (even with a start bias) you only have 3 marsh in your area. So you save them late game for the 3 tulip fields...2 to trade. Meanwhile the Arabs have had a large amount of luxories doubled cause of their UB much earlier.

Doesn't matter...we DON'T know how it works..so saying the Dutch seem to do a lot better than the Arabs can is a joke.

Combining two different civ UA's to try to outclass one isn't right in this example, I think.

Saying this, I still like the faith from desert idea...though I do not think its necessary their UA is changed.

The Dutch were confirmed to have a Unique ability which would allow them to trade ALL of their luxuries and still get the happiness bonuses as if they still had one of them (even if they dont). Meaning you get one incense, you can trade that for a spare lux elsewhere without any building and have +8 happiness quick.

With a Bazaar you still would have to build the building. The Dutch UA is already confirmed helping to add to a feeling that the Arabs are going to be underpowered if they remain the same.

 

[Gucumatz]

Also imagine in Teamer Multiplayer games. The early stage is where primary settling occurs and the ability to grab luxes and give a lux to your partner from turn 1 will allow a teamate to have a ton of leeway to expand and grow.

 

[MadDjinn]

The Dutch were confirmed to have a Unique ability which would allow them to trade ALL of their luxuries and still get the happiness bonuses as if they still had one of them (even if they dont). Meaning you get one incense, you can trade that for a spare lux elsewhere without any building and have +8 happiness quick.

With a Bazaar you still would have to build the building. The Dutch UA is already confirmed helping to add to a feeling that the Arabs are going to be underpowered if they remain the same.

the difference is that the Arabs get 480g/cycle and the Dutch only get 240g/cycle (assuming just one lux).

to make up the difference, the dutch would have to work 8gpt worth of tiles, which is a waste of 4 pop just to catch up to the Arabs.