"Border clashes"

Declaring war is the diplomatic consequences to using military... you (and the AI) get to decide if the diplomatic act of war (ie using military) means that you engage in real military conflict or not. (ie military consequences like armies lost and cities conquered)
Which constantly casts the AI in the role of a provocateur and you in the role of aggressor (because it's always _you_ declaring war). It puts you in the position that the ONLY way you have to persuade the AI to behave other than what it's doing is to go to war. That certainly renders the whole Diplomatic model meaningless. There is NO room for compromises. It's other put up with the AI's machinations or be constantly going to war. That limitation certainly is a motivation for the player to focus on Domination victories. The only way you gain any other victory is by being forced to endure any and all manner of AI disrespect while you do an "end run" to a different victory type.
 
Every plea I see here for a "casus belli" system basically amounts to "It's unfair that the AI stops liking me when I start killing people."

I still can't see the sense in it.

It's certainly not my case, I play peacefully 80% of the time and for the most part I'm okay with the warmonger penalties as I don't see Civ as a game of unbridled Hitler-like warmongering - at least not without serious obstacles in your economy/happiness or science.

It's the diplomacy for anything short of war that I find lackluster and bland. A few steps were made to make the diplo system more interesting with Civ V but I'd like to get even better, more complex and realistic in future versions.

By "casus belli" I'm not quite referring to warmonger penalties but largely referring to a modulation by era and a greater diversity through the game. E.g.: religion should be a greater cause of tensions and aggression before Industrial. Concretely, practicing religious tolerance (letting traders to your city practice and thus perhaps spread their religion) could make the AI more likely to do the same. However, killing missionaries (which should be possible without declaring war, if at a diplo price) or using inquisitors actively (passively, it could stop influence coming from trade route: ie: traders are forbidden to practice their religion while in your city, negating all religious pressure from the TR) could lead to retaliation (the AI asks for a compensation, cancel your trade routes to them or purge your religion from its cities etc.) - and escalation could lead to crusade, in which other civs following the same religion are likely to either join depending on their diplo status with the offender, or else take measures like stopping trade or purging your religion from their cities.

Greed over wonders is a really silly cause for war in the modern era, but sitting on half the world's oil and refusing to trade it to some civs though...

Expansion is a rather poor casus belli in the Ancient era, when the "empires" consist of 2-3 cities, still "unconnected" and thus largely city-states united culturally only still, and half the landmass is still unsettled. It should be causes like greed for luxuries on the claimed landmass that excites tension (which could be alleviated by trading it to them), and greed for spots/cities that would let a civ reach other cities with Trade Routes, or access to the coast if a civ finds itself landlocked and unable to trade abroad and even explore. Once there is no room for expansion border conflicts should become virulent for a while (starting in classical in crammed areas, but mostly in Medieval and Renaissance), before gradually fading again by industrial (except for the Hitler-type leaders). It shouldn't be a cause of tension in Modern if civs are above "hostile" (you don't see much the US coveting the lands of Canada or Mexico...)

Warmongering penalties and what cause them should also be modulated by era, and reflect more their flavors.
 
Which constantly casts the AI in the role of a provocateur and you in the role of aggressor (because it's always _you_ declaring war). It puts you in the position that the ONLY way you have to persuade the AI to behave other than what it's doing is to go to war. That certainly renders the whole Diplomatic model meaningless. There is NO room for compromises. It's other put up with the AI's machinations or be constantly going to war. That limitation certainly is a motivation for the player to focus on Domination victories. The only way you gain any other victory is by being forced to endure any and all manner of AI disrespect while you do an "end run" to a different victory type.

You mean you never provoke the AI...
you never settle in spots they wanted to settle or steal barb camp/ruin right under their noses?

Just because you are so touchy doesn't mean the AI should excuse your use of a warrior to kill their scout.
 
I don't really want to discuss the casus belli question except to say please don't turn my Civ into EU/Victoria.

But as far as a skirmish without declaration of war, it sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to use your military, then you need to accept the consequences of that, namely, war.
 
It's certainly not my case, I play peacefully 80% of the time and for the most part I'm okay with the warmonger penalties as I don't see Civ as a game of unbridled Hitler-like warmongering - at least not without serious obstacles in your economy/happiness or science.

Yeah, what you're describing is just a more intricate system of AI attitudes, which is fine. When most people are pushing for "casus belli," they're really asking for AI attitudes to be mitigated if there's a "good cause" for their own aggression, and "good cause" always boils down to "I was mad and so I killed some people."

As with the OP here, of course, other players are never justified to use aggression against them under this ideal system.
 
Yeah, what you're describing is just a more intricate system of AI attitudes, which is fine. When most people are pushing for "casus belli," they're really asking for AI attitudes to be mitigated if there's a "good cause" for their own aggression, and "good cause" always boils down to "I was mad and so I killed some people."

I agree with you on this for sure. I don't necessarily like the motives they chose (building Wonders and not liking their friends - as if nations acted like kids at kindergaden - and what not), but on the whole penalties for aggression should be there, and I think BNW is on the whole an improvement for this. "Just war" is always relative, I just wouldn't mind it if warmongering penalties were offset a bit by a diplo bonus with civs that also perceive your war as "just" (thus why I'd like a system with war goals). France or Spain wouldn't have perceived Venice as a warmonger for attacking and taking islands held by the Ottomans. They rather applauded.

In terms of game play I even understand why penalties have to last so long, or otherwise successful early conquest would be totally overpowered, letting you build by conquest a massive Empire for which after an era of being the "bad guy" you would no longer be hindered in any way (as it happened in earlier versions of Civ.. it was often a matter of reaching the right techs to more efficiently take out the last civs). The penalties in diplomacy/trade/growth/science are there to balance it out - you can't have conquered half the world, wiped out millions of civilians and destroyed cities and still be liked - and provide an obstacle to surmount, and to slow you down. But perhaps this should be modulated by eras. In Ancient/Classical, the penalties should be huge with you immediate neighbors (with a portion remaining to the end) and absent with anyone else. By medieval/Renaissance, it could extend to trade partners of the parties involved, but be greatly mitigated or increased by religion. In the Renaissance I would greatly lower the penalties even for backstabbing, to allow players to switch sides frequently. By industrial, trade and stability should be major factors and Hitler-like warmongers should pretty much be isolated as pariahs. But I don't have much of an opinion on the success at balance in the game right now as I have not warmongered or really tried to play wide since G&K, though for having had a few games with very successful conquerors with USSR-sized Empires (it's usually Russia or Casimir, but in my new one it's Bismarck who's a force to reckon with) nearly stealing the game from me, it doesn't look that bad for the warmongers.
 
I agree with you on this for sure. I don't necessarily like the motives they chose (building Wonders and not liking their friends - as if nations acted like kids at kindergaden - and what not), but on the whole penalties for aggression should be there, and I think BNW is on the whole an improvement for this. "Just war" is always relative, I just wouldn't mind it if warmongering penalties were offset a bit by a diplo bonus with civs that also perceive your war as "just" (thus why I'd like a system with war goals). France or Spain wouldn't have perceived Venice as a warmonger for attacking and taking islands held by the Ottomans. They rather applauded.
There already is a form of this, in that civs who you are friends with aren't affected as much by your warmongering against other civs, and once ideology comes into play, it's really easy to build up a bloc that just doesn't care what you do as long as you don't attack your mutual friends.

Post-patch, too, it's a lot clearer what level of warmonger penalty you have with someone.
 
There already is a form of this, in that civs who you are friends with aren't affected as much by your warmongering against other civs, and once ideology comes into play, it's really easy to build up a bloc that just doesn't care what you do as long as you don't attack your mutual friends.

Post-patch, too, it's a lot clearer what level of warmonger penalty you have with someone.

Yup, this sort of fine tuning is definitely going in the right direction with the patch (to my taste, anyway).

I'm sure it's also very difficult to balance the wishes of the warmongers for whom Civ has to have a strong conquest element with those of the builders/diplomats. It's fairly clear the developers see it less and less as a game of conquest. Eventually maybe they should have a conquest mode that reduces penalties for those who wish to play the game that way.
 
I'm sure it's also very difficult to balance the wishes of the warmongers for whom Civ has to have a strong conquest element with those of the builders/diplomats. It's fairly clear the developers see it less and less as a game of conquest. Eventually maybe they should have a conquest mode that reduces penalties for those who wish to play the game that way.
I play an even mix of conquest games and less-aggressive ones and don't really have a problem with either. For me, having the rest of the world hate me as a conqueror just gives me a more target-rich environment, and if everyone was still just as buddy-buddy with me when I'm setting the globe on fire, I think that would feel really lame.

Some people, however, get their feelings hurt when a robot looks at them disapprovingly.
 
You mean you never provoke the AI...
you never settle in spots they wanted to settle or steal barb camp/ruin right under their noses?

Just because you are so touchy doesn't mean the AI should excuse your use of a warrior to kill their scout.
Actually, I would have no problem with the AI doing those kinds of things -- provided I can do them as well. Actually, I've thought I was already experiencing Missionary assassinations while they were in some other civ's territory. They simply died with no explanation or visuals to show what killed them. I thought that it was just the AI telling me, "Keep your Missionaries out of our territory! We already have our own Religion! We don't want yours too!" But if _I_ attack an AI Missionary or Great Prophet, I am required to declare war first.
 
Actually, I would have no problem with the AI doing those kinds of things -- provided I can do them as well. Actually, I've thought I was already experiencing Missionary assassinations while they were in some other civ's territory. They simply died with no explanation or visuals to show what killed them. I thought that it was just the AI telling me, "Keep your Missionaries out of our territory! We already have our own Religion! We don't want yours too!" But if _I_ attack an AI Missionary or Great Prophet, I am required to declare war first.

Missionaries die of attrition when wandering through territory you don't have open borders in.

I do kind of think a better ability for Privateers would be to have them appear as barbarian ships, though maybe only to civilian/trade vessels. Be like Elizabeth, saying "we have no idea who's attacking these Spanish ships and stealing their gold...why yes, this is a chest full of pieces of eight, why do you ask?"

But the blanket ability to indiscriminately off civilian units you happen to see near you is just silly. Declare war and deal with the fact that people don't like it when you kill their civilians.
 
.... people don't like it when you kill their civilians.
So let _them_ be the ones to declare war. In the meantime, if they don't heed the No Trespassing signs, what happens to them is their own damn fault.
 
Actually, I've thought I was already experiencing Missionary assassinations while they were in some other civ's territory. They simply died with no explanation or visuals to show what killed them.

Missionaries suffer attrition if they end their turn in another civ's territory and you don't have open borders with them.
 
There is a graphical indicator, but I think it's easily missed. I believe you'll only see it if the missionary is visible when the turn ends.
 
So let _them_ be the ones to declare war. In the meantime, if they don't heed the No Trespassing signs, what happens to them is their own damn fault.
OK, let's flip this around...why should civilian units be the only unit you can kill off without declaring war? Why not military units? After all, having them get close to you isn't necessarily a good thing either.

Why shouldn't you be able to bomb a city without declaring war? Why not take it over and leave it up to the previous owner to declare war? If they really care that much about a city, let them step up.
 
So let _them_ be the ones to declare war. In the meantime, if they don't heed the No Trespassing signs, what happens to them is their own damn fault.

The scout example is out the window with No Trespassing. Its unclaimed territory, you have no right to say no trespassing.

Missionaries is still valid. Would you be ok with diplomatic penalties for killing civilians or do you want no repercussions to killing civilian units in your borders ?
 
The scout example is out the window with No Trespassing. Its unclaimed territory, you have no right to say no trespassing.

Missionaries is still valid. Would you be ok with diplomatic penalties for killing civilians or do you want no repercussions to killing civilian units in your borders ?

I think if I tell them to get their prophets out of my country, and they don't, that it should be considered a DoW on their part.
 
Quit hiding in the shadows you children, are you going to declare war or not?
 
Diplomacy seems pretty fine to me. If someone disregards my request, it's time to pressure them with military force, close off my borders, but pay a little gold for theirs.

Experiment more. Other civs respect you via your military or economy. If they respect you, they won't shove their religion down your throat or settle to close to you. That's entirely realistic.

The unit belongs to that civ. any act against that unit is an act against that civ. Accept the consequences and play smarter. Remember, if you capture a city, you killed population. Doesn't matter if its a hated enemy, the fact you had no problem killing populace raises an eyebrow on everyone.
 
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