BOTM 01 Pre-Game Discussion

[azzaman333]

Spoiler long post :

A question on the choice of patch version - I realize 3.13 is the most current official patch from Firaxis, but Bhuric's changes fix several things that are quite obviously broken in the game, such as vassals breaking free and declaring war on you in situations where it shouldn't be possible (I forget what the trigger is), and several others:

Spoiler :

Changelog:
Fixed bug where culture/espionage would not display for building popups
Fixed bug where spies would be ejected from a square when declaring war
Fixed bug that caused the AI to trade for resources it already had (appears as grossly uneven trades)
Refixed trade bug
Refixed culture/espionage display bug
Fixed bug with Warlords attaching to units when the Great General is part of a selection group
Prevented new Colonies from overwriting previously existing Civs
No longer displays new Colony message if player hasn't met Master Civ
Workers on Transports no longer perform capture of cities (thereby displacing all other units) when city is captured
Units considered "unsuitable" for city defense will no longer be prevented from healing in cities
No longer able to base an unlimited number of air units in vassal's cities
Can found Corporations under Mercantilism
Vassal's spies will no longer be "caught" in your territory
Amount of time worked taken into consideration by city plot selection (thanks SevenSpirits)
The Vassal of a Capitulating Civ is freed before peace treaty
Mouse-over for Worker actively working a plot no longer counts Worker twice
Automated Workers will no longer idle when railroading is possible
Mouse-over for Join City now displays extra bonuses for Great People
Vassals freed by Capitulating Master no longer refuse to talk
Privateers can only enter team members' or vassals' cities
Automated Workers will no longer idle in cities within 2 squares of a hostile border
Refixed Vassal/capitulation
AIs less likely to build Executives if they can't afford to use them or already have sufficient
Buildings that grant both heathiness and unhealthiness will display both instead of neither in building popups
Vassals can no longer be their Master's worst enemy
Espionage ratio for humans now displayed in score tooltip (thanks morbus)
Improved worker threat assessment from units able to move multiple squares
Spies no longer interrupt their mission when moving next to an enemy unit
Fixed AI turn slowdown caused by change to worker threat assessment
Relationship penalty for declaring war on a friend checks if Civs are at war
Altered previous worker threat assessment check so it's less useful, but more efficient
Fixed bug (introduced) causing endless loop at "waiting for players"
Fixed bug (introduced) causing the Great Persons civilopedia entries to be blank
Stolen techs can no longer be traded with No Tech Brokering enabled
New Colonies mirror their Master's tech status with No Tech Brokering enabled
New Colonies mirror their Master's exploration (map) status
Healthy/Unhealthy bonuses will display properly under more circumstances (events, etc)

Most of the issues that are important deal with trading, vassals, and colonies, and some minor ones deal with properites displaying incorrectly.

I ask because it is an important factor in achieving some victory conditions if you have issues with your vassals suddenly breaking free when they aren't supposed to!

You should be pleased to know that the HoF mod incorperates Bhuric's patch.

 

[Trynthlas]

You should be pleased to know that the HoF mod incorperates Bhuric's patch.

Yes indeed, thanks for that info

 

[Gnejs]

Great! Now I know what to write at the top of my Xmas wish list.

 

[Gnejs]

blablablablabla Those who accept my challenge - announce!

I am all for it!

 

[da_Vinci]

Oooh, exciting. At last I can start playing the BtS I bought back in August. I just can't be bothered playing unless its for GOTM or HoF, so now I can have a go at this new expansion. Good stuff.

No practice games! I'll be straight into the real thing when the save is released and see what happens. I have no idea what the tactics are for this leader but hopefully I will find out.

I have yet to play a BtS game too, but it seems so different that your dive right in might be into a shallow pool! I plan to play a few practice games, and guess with which leader and settings?

The time has come for me to attempt to ascend from mortal to immortal status. Let it thus be known to everyone that I, me, Erkon will play the challenger setting for BOTM from now until end of 2008. Let it be known that I, me, Erkon, challenge all of you who have won multiple awards in previous Civ4 GOTM/WOTM to play the challenger setting as well for this period of time. Eternal glory will be awarded the player who collects most awards & medals playing the challenger setting during this period and that champion will receive the Mutineer Award (TM). Eternal disgrace will be awarded any player who complains about "easy game" without playing the challenger setting. So says Erkon, with harsh words, but with gentle heart. Those who accept my challenge - announce!

Finally I can start playing BtS! The steam directory is a bit dusty now but I hope it still works Thanks staff for the effort

So, in 2009 you are planning to go back to contender?

Let it be known, that I, Markus5 the Meek, Wienie Extraordinaire, will only play Contender in 2008. Join me as I wallow in averageness for the next year.

That is about my speed sad: ) The person with the most awards in this group in 2008 will get the Oscar Mayer Award ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Mayer

dV

 

[akots]

Sounds very exciting especially with the HOF mod.

 

[MarkM]

Good news! It's a very well kept secret that I've been looking forward to this. Thanks guys for "making it so." I haven't really looked at the starting position yet so have no comments on that.

You should be pleased to know that the HoF mod incorporates Bhuric's patch.

Clarification, I don't believe it incorporate all of it (not his 11/2 version). The reason I say this is because HOF Mod 3.13.001 Release Notes says "added Bhruic's Unoffical BTS 3.13 Patch fixes (v1.09)" but if you look at Bhruic's changelog you see he's up to v1.11 now.

Not a big deal I don't think, the initial versions got most of the important stuff, but just FYI. More importantly & immediately, I have a Bhruic v1.11 question for mods: I have installed it (you just replace the dll file), do I have to uninstall it to play BOTM1? (p.s. yeah, I finally know what to call it!) I know the HOF mod works if Bhruic's v1.11 patched DLL is there, I'm already playing under that combination (I get the red "not valid for HOF submission" but I always get that). But I'm wondering if I might end up playing with it installed, then get rejected when I submit or something. It wouldn't be the end of the world for me, but others who have it installed might be bummed (I'm not going to win any medals anyway -- by the way, I'm with Markus5, I hereby officially announce that I will probably keep usually playing contender until if & when I at least win one medal, or at even just place in the top 10! That actually should take me into well past 2008 ... )

If I should revert back to the original DLL it's not a problem, I kept it & it will take all of 30 seconds. Just don't know if I need to, and want to make others who've installed it & are more competitive aware, in case it is an issue.

 

[Denniz]

Clarification, I don't believe it incorporate all of it (not his 11/2 version). The reason I say this is because HOF Mod 3.13.001 Release Notes says "added Bhruic's Unoffical BTS 3.13 Patch fixes (v1.09)" but if you look at Bhruic's changelog you see he's up to v1.11 now.

You raise a very important point. The lines in red were after v1.09.
Changelog:

Spoiler :

• Fixed bug where culture/espionage would not display for building popups
• Fixed bug where spies would be ejected from a square when declaring war
• Fixed bug that caused the AI to trade for resources it already had (appears as grossly uneven trades)
• Refixed trade bug
• Refixed culture/espionage display bug
• Fixed bug with Warlords attaching to units when the Great General is part of a selection group
• Prevented new Colonies from overwriting previously existing Civs
• No longer displays new Colony message if player hasn't met Master Civ
• Workers on Transports no longer perform capture of cities (thereby displacing all other units) when city is captured
• Units considered "unsuitable" for city defense will no longer be prevented from healing in cities
• No longer able to base an unlimited number of air units in vassal's cities
• Can found Corporations under Mercantilism
• Vassal's spies will no longer be "caught" in your territory
• Amount of time worked taken into consideration by city plot selection (thanks SevenSpirits)
• The Vassal of a Capitulating Civ is freed before peace treaty
• Mouse-over for Worker actively working a plot no longer counts Worker twice
• Automated Workers will no longer idle when railroading is possible
• Mouse-over for Join City now displays extra bonuses for Great People
• Vassals freed by Capitulating Master no longer refuse to talk
• Privateers can only enter team members' or vassals' cities
• Automated Workers will no longer idle in cities within 2 squares of a hostile border
• Refixed Vassal/capitulation
• AIs less likely to build Executives if they can't afford to use them or already have sufficient
  [*]Buildings that grant both heathiness and unhealthiness will display both instead of neither in building popups
  [*]Vassals can no longer be their Master's worst enemy
  [*]Espionage ratio for humans now displayed in score tooltip (thanks morbus)
  [*]Improved worker threat assessment from units able to move multiple squares
  [*]Spies no longer interrupt their mission when moving next to an enemy unit
  [*]Fixed AI turn slowdown caused by change to worker threat assessment
  [*]Relationship penalty for declaring war on a friend checks if Civs are at war
  [*]Altered previous worker threat assessment check so it's less useful, but more efficient
  [*]Fixed bug (introduced) causing endless loop at "waiting for players"
  [*]Fixed bug (introduced) causing the Great Persons civilopedia entries to be blank
  [*]Stolen techs can no longer be traded with No Tech Brokering enabled
  [*]New Colonies mirror their Master's tech status with No Tech Brokering enabled
  [*]New Colonies mirror their Master's exploration (map) status
  [*]Healthy/Unhealthy bonuses will display properly under more circumstances (events, etc)

You will need to put back the orginal DLL so you can open the BOTM save.

 

[MarkM]

OK Denniz. Thanks. Sounds like there's some ones that would be nice to have, but here's one that just sounds scary:

Fixed bug (introduced) causing endless loop at "waiting for players"

I'm guessing ti must be pretty rare though or you guys would have updated to .002 by now?

Regarding the game itself -- I'm contemplating wisdom of moving 1S to get extra hammer for early production, while keeping all revealed resources & possibly some additional sea one (scout could move there first to check & further evaluate). It would be a fairly hammer poor site (unless those tiles across bay have something) but that could be later fixed with Maori Statues.

 

[Harbourboy]

So what will be the key things to watch out for in this game, compared to GOTM and WOTM, for those of us who have waited for this BOTM before really playing BtS?

 

[cabert]

espionnage would be a key feature in a no trading game.
Even more so since zara yakob is organized (= cheap courthouses)

 

[Trynthlas]

Expect a much better AI, especially if you get one of the militaristic leaders near you - in BtS they build HUGE armies and don't just send them at you piecemeal, they build real Stacks-o-doom.

Also, the AI will attempt to pursue victories other than space race (was that ever fixed in vanilla?). And, of course, the whole espionage factor.

Ah...I would also educate yourself as to the new world wonders and their uses, as well as the changes to the tech tree, which make (in my experience) a rather large difference in how quickly you can ramp up your military from maces/longbows/etc to grenadiers/rifles/etc.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

EP Points and spys change the whole midgame dynamic. To see exactly what i mean, play 2 test games and build the Great Wall in one of them. It has become a serious wonder to get for the primary reason of EP. The no tech trading is going to make me use spies to steal early/mid techs when i would normaly trade for them.

While the location may look coastal with islands, big and small seems to put lots of bays/gulfs into its maps, so the whole area is likely one body of land. I would expect for 2-3 civs to meet us with workboats, as is a new BTS behavior for them.

 

[MarkM]

Don't forget the partisans spawned by razed cities, which might nerf the strategies of some fast conquest players.

 

[azzaman333]

Im not sure if that's (partisans event) been removed by the HoF mod, but I suspect it has.

 

[MarkM]

Im not sure if that's (partisans event) been removed by the HoF mod, but I suspect it has.

Sure enough: "fixed Partisans Event - requires city owner to be in Emancipation." Thanks for pointing that out! I'd adjusted my early war play style to accommodate that, avoiding razing cities if at all possible, so maybe I didn't realize that the latest HOF mod undid it anyway. Now I know I can play this game without having that issue dictate my razing decisions.

I never realized that was a bug. All I knew was that it was a b**** to wage an early war, take out a size 3 city with 2 archers in it or something, then have 4 axemen spawned when you razed it

 

[azzaman333]

According to whoever looked through the random events code for their triggers, Ori I think, found that it was only supposed to occur while the civ was in emancipation, but this didn't work for some reason.

 

[Wolverine07]

Can anyone comment on the random events? How important are they to the game? Some seem really powerful, I looked up the list in an FAQ on gameFAQs.com and one of them called *New Dynasty* allows you to pick either a great general, a great merchant or a great prophet and all you need to do is have hereditary rule and a few techs.

My question is this, should I be picking heridetary rule now because there's a chance I can claim a free great person?

 

[azzaman333]

Can anyone comment on the random events? How important are they to the game? Some seem really powerful, I looked up the list in an FAQ on gameFAQs.com and one of them called *New Dynasty* allows you to pick either a great general, a great merchant or a great prophet and all you need to do is have hereditary rule and a few techs.

My question is this, should I be picking heridetary rule now because there's a chance I can claim a free great person?

Not a free great person, but a free super specialist (so a settled great prophet, general or merchant in the city). It's random though and I wouldn't count on it occurring. The only significant event you can really influence is the slave revolt, which only occurs in slavery and is a way of balancing the civic a little better.

 

[MarkM]

Not a free great person, but a free super specialist (so a settled great prophet, general or merchant in the city). It's random though and I wouldn't count on it occurring. The only significant event you can really influence is the slave revolt, which only occurs in slavery and is a way of balancing the civic a little better.

I concur. Most just destroy a building or improvement, stored food, a pop, or give an extra 1 or 2 hammers or coins in a tile, etc, or else drain your treasury a little to prevent the bad outcome. It looks like the HOF mod neuters the extreme ones (follow the link to log I posted earlier in thread).

There are also quests though, which are a little more impact. But they also take hundreds of turns to achieve. For example if you are given the quest to be the first to build seven coliseums, AND build the Statue of Zeus, before the renaissance (?), you get a free Golden Age (I think that's how it went).