BOTM 10 First Spoiler

[MarkM]

I don't see a lot of talk about trading resources with the AI. Maybe I am doing well in this category? Once I had a few resources and currency hit the scene, I made trades for 7-9gpt, earning 31gpt in foreign income at 500AD.

I was doing it as well, but I guess I didn't elaborate on it because I'm not sure if it's a tactic to emulate (unless your goal is to first survive, and then slowly claw your way from 7th to 6th to 5th to 4th, lol). I'm not sure where I was at precisely 500ad any more on this, but I think I had trades for as high at 12-14gpt at that time (I tend to keep breaking & renewing every time I can wring at least 2gpt more out of it, in that way I slowly grow from a 5-7gpt starting value). It was probably after 500ad, but at one point not too long after I remember totally up and having 70gpt turn in income. I was even trading 1-2 resources I did not have a surplus in for a while, when I calculated that there would be at least a 10-turn stretch where I would not need their bonuses, and I also took cash in places where I could have traded for another resource. I pursued trades aggressively and very early as a double-benefit: 1) money of course, 2) "you have supplied us with resources" relationship bonuses (since my first goal was to stay alive).

But in general, yeah I agree with you even without specific goals, this game seemed to give more opportunities to sell resources for gold than usual. For me, anyway.

p.s. you say you have 7 towns, no courthouses (or whatever the UB replacement is called), and still make a gold profit running 100% science. AFAIK even 31gpt in trade income would not let you do that by itself, the only way to do that is to have built shrines & spread your religion(s) widely (although you curiously don't mention it). That or you are running merchant specialists, though I can't believe you'd do that instead of running scientists if you're making a profit running at 100%, that wouldn't make sense (and I'm assuming you are not running lots of scientists since you say you only popped one by 500ad). If that's true that you have shrines (is it?) I think your situation probably has more to do with that than the 31gpt income from trades?

 

[Jove]

If that's true that you have shrines (is it?) I think your situation probably has more to do with that than the 31gpt income from trades?

No, I have no religion. A few towns have Hinduism or whatever, but no religion has been established; not One religious building has been built. No shrine. No merchant specialists either.

I don't know why my economy seems so efficient. 31gpt foreign income is about it. I'm working two gem mines NW... are you? Maintenance is rather low because I haven't built a ton of buildings, plus our library in Aachen was blown down...

My map layout is different than some's. Washington is totally the dominant player in the E. Rome has ONE(1) city in the sweet spot SE. I plan to attack and capture it- Caesar's been at war with everyone including Washington and has drained the garrison here. Not 'easy pickens', but close.


I don't even know what to do with the long-term future. It's all about mid-term gains.

EDIT: Maybe my trade routes are especially good? For 7 towns, the total is 49gpt at 505AD. How're yours?

 

[jesusin]

Maintenance is rather low because I haven't built a ton of buildings, plus our library in Aachen was blown down...

Just for the record, buildings have nothing to do with maintenance costs.

You can find the sources of maintenance by hovering over in F2 screen and in cities screen.

 

[Jove]

You're right. Now that I've thought about it some more, I haven't had 7 towns for long. 31gpt foreign income was turning a profit because up until about the 300's I had 3 or 4 towns, all fairly close to the capitol.

 

[MarkM]

Jove, thanks for replies. I'm not really sure what I had for maintenance at 500ad, I'm not done with game yet (somehow I'm actually even almost clawing my way back into contention, LOL), so I can't go back and reload the save from around that time yet to look. It doesn't' matter to your maintenance how good of trade routes you have or if you are working gems etc, if you're running at 100% science, you get no gold from any of that. If you have no shrines, the only way you making a profit on 31gpt of trades must be that you average < 4.5 maint cost per city. For 7 cities and no courthouses at deity that seems kinda low, but I suppose is possible if you have a well-pace forbidden palace, and/or also if you don't have very large populations, esp in your cities further from palace/f-palace.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't build the courthouses anyway even if you are making a profit, it is your UB after all, and the 75% maint reduction really rocks Also the +2 EP can only help, in my game at least the EP the AI's are putting up are obscene.

Good luck!

 

[Gosha190]

First of all I decided to play culture if marble will be accesible and religion as alternative way to... victory I did not find marble and decided to play religion.

As I wrote in pregame discussion thread, I do not like our start position because I do not know how to play there. And I feel me free to spent some turns for land exploring. I had an idea to move settler right to prevent AI from settling on my land and avoid problems with close borders in a future. Capital culture grows enough fast to capture space and resources.

so I settled in 3900BC right to the iron on the plain hill (sheep, pig, weat, 1FP). I think DS will not speak this time that I am too conservative

Production: worker ,warrior. warrior, warrior, library,...

Research and settling:
3425 animal
2900 writing
______________2150 second city on the start position
2025 Alphabet
2000 Fish,BW - exchanged
1975 Math - by GS
1975 Sail,Wheel,Agri,Medi - exch.
1950 Poly,Priest,Arch,IW,Pott - exch.
1825 Mason - exch.
1525 Mono -exch.
1500 Theology by Oracle
_____________1425 3-d city (barbarian) 2 gems, corn, stone
_____________1175 4-th city (barbarian) ivory+horses
1175 Currency
1150 The GLighthose!!! (I got a lot of money from him)
1000 Constr -exch.
950 Monarch - exch.
900 CoL - my second religion!
750 Calendar - exch.
_____________625 5-th city (barbarian) pig
425 CS
275 Paper
200 Aestet
140 Drama (research set to zero)

After currency there were no problems with money. I got enough to keep research at 100% all game. In 1000BC it was 60 bulbs per turn. In 200BC it was about 200.

1000BC 4 cities, 5 workers, pop 16.

 

[Morcar]

Gosha

Very impressive!!! Would be intresting to know how this will end up for you .

My progress is not so great as yours: i only managed to build a pyro, settled 5 cities, born 3 GP, two of which was GSc (first spent on academy and second on philo, which i used to make fine exchange with the AIs) and a great spy. It's around 500AD and i'm deciding how to spent that just borned spy. I'm about 3 techs behind on average from AIs. well... aiming diplomacy, Caesar has founded judo and spread it to all of his neighbours including me. So Wash, Jul, Kon, and Khan and me are in very good relations, Musa and Khmer are heretics. It's almost first time i'm playing deity

 

[Gosha190]

2 Morcar
"Would be intresting to know how this will end up for you" - successfully as I know

My game was not peaceful . As I remember first war between WK and Sury began in 18 cetury BC years. MM got 3 first religion! And all other world long time lived without religion at all. I sent my first missioner to JC, spread Christianity to all AI except MM. Then built AP in Confu and returned to Christianity. Wash and JC voted for me. It was enough to win.

And final relations you can see here:

Spoiler :

 

[Ronnie1]

@ MarkM...You can load your 505AD save without violating the rules as long as you don't move anything.

 

[Morcar]

2 Gosha

Nice game, gongratulations! So, i don't think we need to write more spoiler info in this particular thread

I hope, i will finish my game soon enough.

 

[jesusin]

Questions for UnconqueredSun (or anyone, I really need help here)

1.- Did you really not build a worker first thing? What&#8217;s the reasoning behind that decision? Had I not seen the results you got, I would have said that was a noob mistake!

1. Yes, I worked cows for size two (about the time to research Fishing) and then concentrated on WBs and had the first one out about the time your worker was completed. I can't look back atm, but I probably whipped the worker in full from pop 4. What were your stats when you completed BW?

Sorry about the delay. I haven't tested your way yet. Here are my stats at 2400BC:

Techs: AH-Fishing-Mining-BW
3 Warriors, 1 exploring WB, 1 Worker tired to be idle,
2 clams connected, cows pastured, 1hill mined.
Pop5, 15 food, 29 hamers invested in a Settler, 11 beakers overflow, 0 gold.

Note: At pop4 I had to work 030 tile for two turns instead of the clams 402 in order to rush a Warrior becasuse of a barb. Not too influencial, maybe a 1 turn delay in BW.


With so much turns of the worker doing nothing I start to see why you would consider not building a worker first thing.




EDIT: A first quick run at not building a worker first. Stats at 2400BC:
Techs: Fishing-Mining-BW-Arch- half of AH
Prod: 10h in SH, WB, WB, Warrior, Worker(whip2), exploring WB, Archer, start Settler
2 clams connected, 1hill mined, mine+chop to complete this turn.
Pop4, 15 food, 35 hammers invested in a Settler, 60b left to AH but Arch is worth 151b, 10 gold.

Comparison: Worker first gets 42 food more, same units, a bit more exploration, a few less workerturns, 1 hammer less, 90 commerce less.
Not clear what is best. But the question "was not going worker first a noob mistake?" is answered: no.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

With so much turns of the worker doing nothing I start to see why you would consider not building a worker first thing.

FWIW when I was play-testing to make sure the map was playable, my (unscientific, vague) impression was that I was getting better results when I refrained from building either worker or workboat first. Building a worker first had the problem that - as you've realized - on the terrain around the start, there isn't that much a worker can usefully do at the beginning of the game. I think workboats were also a little suboptimal since each fishing net only gives you +2 food, which at the beginning of the game isn't that much of a return on the hammers invested building it (and they'll probably get pillaged by barb galleys before too long anyway). My feeling is that the strongest results may come from building a settler first (maybe after a couple of warriors to explore the land and escort the settler).

I guess the real lesson is to look carefully at the map around your starting area and at the techs you have/could research very early before assuming that the standard doctrine of 'worker first' is best in every situation.

 

[Gosha190]

I guess the real lesson is to look carefully at the map around your starting area and at the techs you have/could research very early before assuming that the standard doctrine of 'worker first' is best in every situation.

I got the same conclusion after tests playing and spent 4 turns for scouting.
I was looking for a position where I can build worker first because I do not like to play in another style. (I did not planned to steal worker from nearest neighbor )

Second reason was to move capital right to prevent AI expansion on my lands.

 

[Jove]

If you have no shrines, the only way you making a profit on 31gpt of trades must be that you average < 4.5 maint cost per city. For 7 cities and no courthouses at deity that seems kinda low, but I suppose is possible if you have a well-pace forbidden palace, and/or also if you don't have very large populations, esp in your cities further from palace/f-palace.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't build the courthouses anyway even if you are making a profit, it is your UB after all, and the 75% maint reduction really rocks Also the +2 EP can only help, in my game at least the EP the AI's are putting up are obscene.

Good luck!

Now I'm sure of it: towns 5, 6 and 7 were built or captured from barbs pretty close together and not long before 500AD. So, I was making a full set of trades with only 4 towns, and therefore turning a profit. This also explains why I wasn't building the Rathaus- I just couldn't spare the production yet.

My game is so-so up to this point, but not one to rush out and emulate. I hope my replies help; they're intended to be taken in context with other games for comparison...

EDIT: I'm playing the contender save btw.

 

[MarkM]

Now I'm sure of it: towns 5, 6 and 7 were built or captured from barbs pretty close together and not long before 500AD. So, I was making a full set of trades with only 4 towns, and therefore turning a profit. This also explains why I wasn't building the Rathaus- I just couldn't spare the production yet.

I've gone back and reloaded, my closest save to 500ad was 445ad, I had 5 cities at that time (two of them with Rathauses), 30gpt in trade (one less than you), and I was still running a deficit of 19gpt at 100% science. Cities were not that spread out. Thinking it was maybe my civics (was running organized religion & slavery), I switched them to all low upkeep to see what would happen. Still running 14gpt deficit even after 30gpt trade income.

Who knows. I had 32 total pop and 24 units at that time, maybe that's it.

 

[greatbeyond]

One of the things that would help when comparing strategies/starts is specifying which save you started with.
It appears the AI was no match for Gosha, way to take it to the AI.

I went with the Contender start. After several tests I came to the conclusion that an Adventurer start meant a different strategy. Having a Worker meant researching those techs that gave him something to do. Initially I was going to go for Alpha first like many others. I had played the test game posted and one I created. Both were different than what DS came up with.
Like many others I also thought the game played slightly easier that the Deity games I have tried. Perhaps the tweaks in the latest patch have had an effect on how the AI views going to war and the chances it will.

As I said above, I went with Contender and was going to shoot for Alpha. I started with researching Fishing to get some WBs and grow to the happy cap quickly. This strategy lasted only long enough until I realized we were very close to Washingon. This was not something I expected based on my tests with this map.

Pre-play goals were: Get Archery early for defense. Get Sailing to Settle the land to the West, Build Settlers and build an empire before being shut in. Catch up in techs.
I hoped for a Diplo or SR win. I have never been able to get the AP win to work out, and felt Culture was not a possibility. Conquest/Domination...yeah right!

Research went: Fishing,Archery (those nasty Barbs appear early and in large quantities), Sailing (to allow access to the other landmass),Mining, BW, AH, Wheel (I would have skipped this for a little bit if I had realized the copper would hookup with the River, but it wasn't yet mined.), Writing, Alpha, Masonry. At this point I was behind in techs but I saw that no one knew Aesthetics and I saw a chance to catch up. I traded Aesthetics (400AD) to all but one AI who had just learned it. Then I went for Drama, completing in 640AD, again trading for anything I missed. IIRC two AIs had it at the time.

Builds: Start Warrior, switch to Archer when available. With 1T left switch to Settler (this was when I saw Washington was very close and we would have to fight for space), then cascade Archer,Settler,Warrior. Then two more Archers (Barbs show up en-masse and cross borders), WB, Galley. One Archer is transported to the other landmass and starts battling Barbs. Worker next, then start WB, Galley (Barb Galleys show up and injure my one Galley so another is started to help protect our Clams) complete WB, start Settler. Then it's off to Axemen.

I settled my Capitol 1E as I felt that would enable my Stone city a little breathing room. Once I saw how close Washington was, my Settler #2 went 4E and settled next to where the Copper would appear (Prague). The Barb city popped just after that (next to the Iron) and I thought it would save me having to build a Settler for there. Imagine my surprise when my Archer and Warrior approached to find 5 Wariors garrisoned there. We held off waiting for another Archer and another AI Warrior showed up near Prague making it necessary to rush back to Prague. I ended up waiting for Axemen, approached with 4 Axes, and 2 Archers. The one Archer left in the Barb City turned into two I lost two Axes without denting the Archers and waited for reinforcements. It wasn't meant to be as Wang Kon showed up near the border with a stack of 3 Swords, 3 Chariots, an Axe and a Archer. I rushed a Spear, he declared (340BC) but lost his stack of Chariots and Swords with me only losing one Axe. I tried to get peace as quickly as possible but he held out for a long time. I got peace just as he was showing up with a stack twice as big as the first. He had been at war continuously since the start of the game. That was my only war up to the spoiler cut-off. I tried to get another Settler East of there but was beaten to it by Washington. The culture pressure on Prague was not something I expected. I don't know how Washington did it but he kept pushing back the borders of Prague to where I later had to bomb a GA just to get some land. The Barb city ended up falling to Washington then Wang Kon declared on him and took it. I was hoping for a culture flip but it never happened.

It seemed there were a lot of AI vs AI wars, though none of them seemed to suffer much as a result. Buddhism was the religion of choice of all but Mansa and one other. Eventually Mansa was the only one that was different. It took the longest time for Buddhism to spread to me,but when it did I converted ASAP. Mansa was nice and did give me two techs before this.

My Scout explored most of the "other" landmass before he got far enough to learn it wrapped right around. It seems the AI didn't expand as rapidly as it usually does as I was eventually able to build cities/capture Barb Cities to fill the area from Suryavarman all the way to me.

My economy did slow but never crashed as I was able to sell many Luxuries for cash and was able to keep researching. Of course this also helped with my relations.

My play was far from optimal and I see many places where I would change things.
As it got close to the cutoff, JC was cruising ahead with several others trading places near the top.
It seems that the tech rate was much faster in other's games. Perhaps the early continuous wars in mine slowed the AIs down.

 

[Half Nelson]

Went into this too late (only 4 days before close) with totally wrong attitude:- I assumed I would be thoroughly crushed and didn’t focus. I have NEVER attempted a Deity game in over 15 years of Civving, but took the contender save in a fit of ill-considered bravado. Settled in place, AH/M/BW, couple of warriors, then worker / settler. Settled second city for fish/sheep/copper etc. Fought off numerous barbs, including a nasty archer-horde event. So far so good ……… I was building a third settler for the plains hill to E, on river between the mountains:-this looked like the best spot to seal off my territory, but my chops were delayed by barb activity. Here things started to come off the rails. Barbs settled a city on coast to S of me (below where iron would appear). I was heading to take it with 2 axes when JC captured it with a wandering spearman at fairly long odds. I then moved the axes to where my new settler was heading and saw an American settler heading towards the same spot, guarded by a single archer. This was a key moment, but I bottled out of a DOW. America beat me to the sweet spot and I stupidly settled to N of the wheat in a much weaker position, leading to an economic crash from which I never really recovered. I was midway through writing, but made a strategic (ha ha!) switch to fishing / sailing for settling across the straights. I watched in admiration as the AIs REXed, teched and fought across the map. I eventually got city 4 on the beautiful spot across the sea, followed by a fish / iron city further W. I saw my only hope in establishing a couple of additional cities further W (notably the ele/horse site), but I needed to knock over several badly-sited barb cities to do this. After much war, I was on the point of completing this goal with my battle-scarred swords when, in successive turns, (i) the barbs went all feudal, then (ii) MM appeared off shore and blew them away by amphibious mace attack. The dream faded:- where do I put my settler now?
Diplomatically I am friendly with the Hindu block led by JC (who has already vassalled WK and Suri; gulp!!) and including MM and GW. My little empire looks not too bad on the face of it, with three top-notch cities (each running 2 scientists) and the other two beginning to take reasonable shape. Unfortunately I am hopelessly behind in tech (even the barbs are ahead of me!), although apparently not to the point when any of my so-called friends will gift me anything. I think I’ll quit while still alive and move on to BOTM11; this will certainly end in tears before too long. Shame I can’t tech-trade with the barbs!
Observations.
1. The AI certainly doesn’t hang around on Deity!
2. I didn’t go for early fishing / workboats because I was concerned that Barb galleys would appear very early. In fact I had a galley in place before they turned up, although I was hard-pressed to keep them at bay thereafter.
3. The lack of happiness resources severely hampered my growth.
4. Gosha’s initial settler move to lever some land was outstanding.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Techs: AH-Fishing-Mining-BW
3 Warriors, 1 exploring WB, 1 Worker tired to be idle,
2 clams connected, cows pastured, 1hill mined.
Pop5, 15 food, 29 hamers invested in a Settler, 11 beakers overflow, 0 gold.

My stats at 2375BC were:
Techs: Fishing - Mining - BW - Arch - 237/253 of AH (1 turn left)
Production (exact order unknown): 11h in SH; 3 x WB; Warrior, Worker, 2 x Archer (one at 4 xp), Settler
3 clams connected, 1hill mined, 2 river forests chopped
Pop 2, 12 food, 39 hammers to be invested in a worker this turn, 11 gold
...and a barbarian spearman lurking about