BOTM 10 First Spoiler

[Unconquered Sun]

If its so easy, why don't you provide a little more detail on how you accomplish it? Did you get all the AI to war each other? Tech path? Build order? Tiles worked?

The GOTM format is not conductive to detailed walkthru-style posting. That being said, I might go back and review my early gameplay when BOTM 10 finishes.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I do think this was winnable game, but you need to be really good and have some decent luck or be really lucky and fairly good.

Luck hasn't got much to do with it...in fact I had terrible luck in the BCs, including one of the barbarian events.

Knowing the steps to victory is far more important.

I did find that I was at one point even or slightly ahead of the AI in tech, but it did not last, I am curious to see if you can keep your advantage.

Yes, because I'm already preparing for the future hurdles.

Example: Right now I'm about to hit WFYABTA, but the leading AI (Washington) is already befriended (no WFYABTA). Moreover, I have Mansa, and his WFYABTA threshold is very very high.

Next: trading exclusively with Wash means he'll be advanced too...but he's right next to me, sharing religion/trade routes and I'm getting a GSpy from Communism

Next: The espionage points won't last, but universities are already underway, leading to Oxford; not to mention the general increase of the number and size of my cities. By the time Washington is no longer useful I'm going to have sustainable research in the 1000s.

 

[Yamps]

Ha,ha! The game still isn't over Unconquered Sun. AI bonuses increase with eras, maybe Washington surpasses you later.

The BOTM isn't for walkthroughs, but now you are just being smarty-pants.

You could give some information:

How many cities did you have at 500 AD?
What type of economy did you use?
What techs did you research?

etc...

I'd guess that you REX-ed a lot, kept power low and Washington at least Pleased (for 0% attack chances) and used hybrid economy maybe. Sth like that?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Ha,ha! The game still isn't over Unconquered Sun. AI bonuses increase with eras, maybe Washington surpasses you later.

The BOTM isn't for walkthroughs, but now you are just being smarty-pants.

You could give some information:

How many cities did you have at 500 AD?
What type of economy did you use?
What techs did you research?

etc...

I'd guess that you REX-ed a lot, kept power low and Washington at least Pleased (for 0% attack chances) and used hybrid economy maybe. Sth like that?

 

[Yamps]

right back at you!

 

[Cabledawg]

When I said I was doing better than expected, it meant that the game felt easier. I play mostly Immortal games and this game felt like an Emperor game except you could see that the AI had massive prodution bonuses as evident by the monster stacks that I saw.

I bribed a larger JC into a war with a smaller but more advanced Sury. I gave up 2 monster techs to do it....but they fought allmost the entire game from then on. I kept some units near the battles and was awestruck by the size of their SOD's.

Unconquered Sun prolly did the same as I did. I beelined for Education while making good trades along the way. He does seem to be further along than I was but his landmass looks the same as mine.....ie....noone else had a chance to settle the other stone/gems landmass but me. Moderator Action: Removed reference to post-500AD gameplay. DS We will see in the final spoiler.

 

[JerichoHill]

While I'm struggling to repair my laptop due to an overheated graphics card, I find Sun's posts extremely unhelpful. I get that he's awesome, but I want to know *HOW* he did it.

I'll post about where I found myself at 415AD. I believe I got CS the turn before.

I settled in place. I did not have any barbs settle to my east. I have 3 cities to my east, essentially claiming all the land west of the mountain range. Washington's on the other side, and I kept him at pleased so I wouldn't have a war issue. In my game, Ceasar was wiping Khan, and I joined in as Khan did not have OB with Wash. No-risk shared war turns!

The big island to our west was really nice. My economy struggled until I got to calendar and started really growing my pop. I've got 3 cities to my west on the island, and there's a very large barbarian city-state presence further. I've gotten 2 Great Scientists which have built academies.

However, I am woefully behind in tech. I *did* get CS before any AI however, so there is hope.

But I really would like to know where sun was in 500AD. I've got 7 cities, no military, running at 60% science and 1gpt.

I should say I had multiple positive events. A bonus to one of my fishing boats, a warrior got experience, and 2 beaker bonuses when researching CS. I also got the "Prague Games" and that gave me +1 relations with all AI. No negative events. Luck.

 

[azzaman333]

I built 1 city on the starting peninsular before being boxed in by Washington and barbarians. Fortunately, I was able to capture the barbarian city and squeeze another city in, whilst taking control of most of the jungle on the thin long peninsular where the scout starts.

In the AI department, only Wang and Genghis I'd be confident in claiming won't win, as Julius is the biggest civ, Sury has a lot of wonders, Washington is avoiding war, and Mansa is Mansa. And as long as Washington and Mansa don't betray me, I should remain sheltered enough that it's not worth the effort to attack me.

 

[civ_steve]

The GOTM format is not conductive to detailed walkthru-style posting. That being said, I might go back and review my early gameplay when BOTM 10 finishes.

I hope you decide to post a more detailed early spoiler after the competition finishes. That would be very helpful!

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I find Sun's posts extremely unhelpful. I get that he's awesome, but I want to know *HOW* he did it...The big island to our west was really nice.

The thing is, there isn't a concise *how* walkthru for deity. Saying "I had X cities in 500AD and ran Y type of economy" isn't enough. The devil is in the details.

For instance, when I settled my first city on the western landmass, I knew I'm on pangea, not an island.

How?

By hovering over the trade route of the city. In BTS, the trade route comes with value breakdown, and the +100% oversea bonus was missing.

But I really would like to know where sun was in 500AD.

500AD, I don't remember.

Moderator Action: Post-500AD info deleted

To answer other questions asked:

Type of economy: capital as GPP farm, all else hybrid at the time.

Power: I had few units but made the most of terrain, i.e. four barbarian swordmen failed to capture a city on the western peninsula; the defensive position on the main peninsula was far stronger. At sea, my galleys always fought on the defense and I never risked my fishing boats on the outcome of one sea battle.

Did I REX: Absolutely not. I settled only the best sites and kept the number of my cities comfortable for the economy (and the diplomacy).

My initial tech order: fishing, mining, BW. Next three were archery, AH, and sailing. I didn't beeline Alphabet but self-researched all the key starting techs and then went for Aesthetics.

My initial build order: partial Stonehenge for cash, fishing boat or three, warrior, worker, couple of archers, settler.

Did the barbarians found a city next to me: Yes, they did, early, on a hill 2 tiles south of the bronze. They had 4 warriors there, a few more warriors and a spearman in the area. I used my archers to kill the wandering units (obviously I baited the spearman into attacking hill/forest) and then build a coastal city next to the bronze, mined the riverside bronze, and had it connected via sailing, not roads. Then I whipped two axes and took the barbarian city.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I hope you decide to post a more detailed early spoiler after the competition finishes. That would be very helpful!

Sure. I won't mind reading more detailed spoilers myself, especially if jesusin is playing and pulls off a 1000AD culture vic

 

[oncable]

I've never played Deity BTS before so I just dove in to the contender start trying to expand early as much as possible. REXing as much as possible thinking early land grab would be the only way to counter the AI growth. I thought the only way to keep the economy afloat with rapid early expansion would be the Great Lighthouse so I went for that and got it in 1025 BC. I sent a settler over to the stone and with that I thought I'd try for the Pyramids and with some chopping managed to get that in 425BC in the capital. I also have Moai in Bactrian, my production city.

Now it's 565 AD. I have X cities and I have no idea what to do next.
Moderator Action: Well, for starters, you could stop talking about your post-500AD game!

 

[civ_steve]

The thing is, there isn't a concise *how* walkthru for deity. Saying "I had X cities in 500AD and ran Y type of economy" isn't enough. The devil is in the details.

...

I agree. Many of the Strategy Articles are very specific, so it's a little difficult to piece a general approach together. This is one of the powers of the GOTM - the game is the same for everyone, so all the players know the situation well and can relate directly to the spoiler threads as posted. And clearly a game that works well demonstrates successful strategies better to players that have games that don't work as well.

Your post has been very helpful! At Deity I have been playing to research Alphabet as quickly as possible, but this tends to provide very few early options - no Sailing to settle the nearby landmass, no Archery to provide strong defense, and even some offense if desired, no BW to make decisions about settling city #2, #3, etc. Even with Alphabet, I pretty much have to trade it away to get Techs like BW and Math, so the Tech pace of the AI gets a boost, which isn't the best thing to do. The only Civ4 games I play are GOTM (very little time to even complete these), so its these few games like this that really help me advance my game.

I didn't know about BTS trade routes.

So thanks for the tips, and the game information you provided!

 

[jesusin]

Sure. I won't mind reading more detailed spoilers myself, especially if jesusin is playing and pulls off a 1000AD culture vic

I won't tell, we can't talk about post 500AD things.

When I stop hating myself I will feel like writing a detailed spoiler of my early game. Not today.

I agree that the game was "easily" (as far as Deity goes) winable. But I suck. I had lots of bad luck, sure, but more importantly, I made loooooots of mistakes.

By reading the details you have provided (thank you!) I find surprising that we took the same decisions, we used the same tricks (who would wait for a road to connect the copper? ), we had the same number of cities at 500AD
and, however, our situation was immensely different at 500AD. I had crushed my economy, you hadn't. I'll probably address some questions to you when I make my write-up, if you don't mind.

 

[jesusin]

At Deity I have been playing to research Alphabet as quickly as possible, but this tends to provide very few early options - no Sailing to settle the nearby landmass, no Archery to provide strong defense, and even some offense if desired, no BW to make decisions about settling city #2, #3, etc. Even with Alphabet, I pretty much have to trade it away to get Techs like BW and Math, so the Tech pace of the AI gets a boost, which isn't the best thing to do.

I firmly believe that it IS the best thing to do.

In Deity you don't compete, like Toku, grumbling in a corner and trading with nobody. You use AI bonuses as a lever.

So, if you are after the fastest finish, you do want to boost AI research as much as possible, to be towed by it.


On the other hand, I have known of very good players who delay their trading Alpha so, who knows?

 

[Erkon]

Sure. I won't mind reading more detailed spoilers myself, especially if jesusin is playing and pulls off a 1000AD culture vic

I'll pitch in with my feeble attempt to master this game. I did not have much problem with barbs in general, and I was not boxed in, and was not DoWed upon. The land is very generous, both the starting position and the "island" to the west. Still, it's a struggle.

I took the decision early on to tech towards alpha (after sailing). I built very few military units, since I presumed that the AI would settle enough cities to prevent barbs to spawn excessively. I managed to scout a lot to the west, popping 3 goody huts (coins, extra scout, extra warrior), and most of the western lands was revealed. Since I did not meet any AI to the west, I decided to expand eastwards before it was too late. Second city was next to the copper, and third city on the desert hill to block Washington from settling closer to me. However, I did not fogbust properly, and the barbs settled on the hill south of the iron. Before I could get copper online (I was teching towards alpha), Washington captured the city. Critical bad event, since the city was located at a monster site. Another bad event was that my granary on the desert hill city was destroyed the same turn it was built

I had to run specialists to get an early alpha, which reduced my expansion speed. This together with the lost opportunity to capture the iron city leads me to the conclusion that the alpha-beeline was a strategic mistake. But how could I know beforehand? On what basis did players tech mining/BW and not alpha?

Good things so far:

• Lots of western land revealed
• Two more cities settled
• No DoW

Bad things so far:

• Missed the Iron city spot
• Lost the granary in city#3

I managed to trade me a lot of techs, and I was tech leader for a while, but I did not run a strong economy, so I was not first to CoL (Mansa was). At that time I had generated a GS, which I used to lightbulb Philosophy (which I used to trade me more tech). I then switched to Pacifism to speed up great people emergence. The trouble was that I was running Hinduism together with Mansa, while the people I wanted to befriend was running Buddhism. I realize this was another critical mistake, but I don't know what I could have done differently? Perhaps running Pacifism was a bad idea from the start? Perhaps it was stupid to bulb Philosophy?

Once I got CS (around 1 AD), I switched to expansion mode, and started to expand across the sea. I used a second GS to lightbulb Paper (which I used to trade me more tech), and a third GS for Academy. Now I'm researching Printing Press, and my tech target is Mass Media. If I fail a diplomatic victory, I will have to attempt a space race. My victory chance is less than 50% though, but I've learned that it's possible to catch up AIs in the end game.

I've mainly been running Caste so far, but perhaps it would have been wiser to run slavery? I like to run an artist for four turns to expand city borders, and I like to grow the cities...

Hopefully I can manage to settle most of the western lands, and there are lots of attractive sites. My main concern is the slow research pace. Perhaps if I could get Friendly with Washington? I wish I could run Free Religion...

Ohh, I almost forgot: I've been DoWing Kublai and the Khmer's several times. I actually killed an Archer!

Tech path: Sailing, AH, Writing, Alpha, CoL, Philosophy (bulb), CS, Paper (bulb), PP.

 

[MarkM]

The thing is, there isn't a concise *how* walkthru for deity. Saying "I had X cities in 500AD and ran Y type of economy" isn't enough. The devil is in the details.

For instance, when I settled my first city on the western landmass, I knew I'm on pangea, not an island.

How?

By hovering over the trade route of the city. In BTS, the trade route comes with value breakdown, and the +100% oversea bonus was missing.

500AD, I don't remember.

Moderator Action: Post-500AD info deleted

To answer other questions asked:

Type of economy: capital as GPP farm, all else hybrid at the time.

Power: I had few units but made the most of terrain, i.e. four barbarian swordmen failed to capture a city on the western peninsula; the defensive position on the main peninsula was far stronger. At sea, my galleys always fought on the defense and I never risked my fishing boats on the outcome of one sea battle.

Did I REX: Absolutely not. I settled only the best sites and kept the number of my cities comfortable for the economy (and the diplomacy).

My initial tech order: fishing, mining, BW. Next three were archery, AH, and sailing. I didn't beeline Alphabet but self-researched all the key starting techs and then went for Aesthetics.

My initial build order: partial Stonehenge for cash, fishing boat or three, warrior, worker, couple of archers, settler.

Did the barbarians found a city next to me: Yes, they did, early, on a hill 2 tiles south of the bronze. They had 4 warriors there, a few more warriors and a spearman in the area. I used my archers to kill the wandering units (obviously I baited the spearman into attacking hill/forest) and then build a coastal city next to the bronze, mined the riverside bronze, and had it connected via sailing, not roads. Then I whipped two axes and took the barbarian city.

I guess the deal is, you really didn't do much different than me. Except I grabbed poly before I started down the same tech path as you, fishing, mining, BW. Probably going forthe religion hurt me vis-avis you. I did not get stonehenge, but did get oracle, which let me get CoL. maybe a wash there. I did beeline alpha, and traded tremendously for a few turns, almost catching up with AI. So I think I did better than you there.

Otherwise, all I can think of is that I lost both my starting scout and warrior very quickly to barbs, two defeats in the first 3-4 battles I had. So I had to build more warriors right away , and could explore less. But surely this did not put me behind permanently?

The point is, nothing you have said here explains why you had so much tech at 500ad. Surely you understand, this is the question we are asking you, how did you get that? I see your screenshot has since been removed, but I recall that you had a multi-tech lead on every AI civ at 500ad, is that correct?

 

[MarkM]

I firmly believe that it IS the best thing to do.

In Deity you don't compete, like Toku, grumbling in a corner and trading with nobody. You use AI bonuses as a lever.

So, if you are after the fastest finish, you do want to boost AI research as much as possible, to be towed by it.


On the other hand, I have known of very good players who delay their trading Alpha so, who knows?

I had hoped to do this, but ... one of the bizarrest things of this game for me is, although I was behind MM and Washington i tech for the first 1000 years AD, I actually consistently had multiple techs that JC, WK, GK, Sury did not have, and could have traded to them for, and gotten "towed" like this, for some reason they just would not trade with me. It wasn't the case that I had bad relations, except for GK, Sury was cautious until very late (when I had to "declare war on the infidels"), WK alternated between cautious and pleased, and JC was actually pleased. No, when I went into the diplomatic screen I got the "We fear you are coming too advanced" reason! When I had at most three techs they did not have, and they usually had the same number or more that I did not have? How can they say I'm tto advanced, I'm actually at the same tech level as them aren't I?

This was my major disappointment in the game, to repeatedly research techs that others should want in trade, and then find no one willing to trade Did anyone else have this experience?

 

[Erkon]

...No, when I went into the diplomatic screen I got the "We fear you are coming too advanced" reason! When I had at most three techs they did not have, and they usually had the same number or more that I did not have? How can they say I'm tto advanced, I'm actually at the same tech level as them aren't I?

This was my major disappointment in the game, to repeatedly research techs that others should want in trade, and then find no one willing to trade Did anyone else have this experience?

Yes, I have the same problem, and I presume most people run into WFYABTA. Each AI keeps track of tech trades you make. Each tech you receive in trade increases a counter, and this counter is reduced over time. It's the number of trades you do, not the worth of the trade. There are lots of details, and perhaps someone can give us a link? Different AI's have different thresholds for WFYABTA, and this is also depending on difficulty level, and this threshold is removed once you are friendly with them.

Skilled players keep track of all trades they make to predict how many trades they can afford. As a general rule, don't ask for techs that you don't really need, and don't trade for cheep tech.

 

[MarkM]

Yes, I have the same problem, and I presume most people run into WFYABTA. Each AI keeps track of tech trades you make. Each tech you receive in trade increases a counter, and this counter is reduced over time. It's the number of trades you do, not the worth of the trade. There are lots of details, and perhaps someone can give us a link? Different AI's have different thresholds for WFYABTA, and this is also depending on difficulty level, and this threshold is removed once you are friendly with them.

Skilled players keep track of all trades they make to predict how many trades they can afford. As a general rule, don't ask for techs that you don't really need, and don't trade for cheep tech.

Oh, I never knew this. Thanks for the info. I think that was my mistake then, when I got alpha I started trading like crazy and caught up quickly on tech. If I'd realized there was this counter, I would have "saved" some trades. Because I beelined alpha I traded for a lot of very cheap techs, first and second column ones even, that I could have researched in a couple turns.

I probably never ran into this before (noticeably) because i usually pull ahead in techs on lower difficulty games.

Well, at least I can say I learned something important for next time! thanks Erkon, this is what makes xOTM great, I'm not sure I would have ever known the reason for this (and how to minimize/avoid it next time)