BOTM 10 First Spoiler

[karmina]

The point is, nothing you have said here explains why you had so much tech at 500ad. Surely you understand, this is the question we are asking you, how did you get that? I see your screenshot has since been removed, but I recall that you had a multi-tech lead on every AI civ at 500ad, is that correct?

I failed this botm; but afterwards I practised some (hof) deity games. I can now pretty reliably win the Liberalism race before 500 AD, and that's probably the key:

0. get 4-5 cities early...that's where I fail most of the time
1. beeline to either alpha or aestetics, via the most important worker techs, then do trade for everything you can get
2. research lit, drama or (better) CoL, trade for monarchy
3. built NE somewhere where you can run 4 or more scientists. GLib's too expensive without marble.
4. bulb philo. getting it first isn't mandatory, but it helps
5. trade for CS or theo
6. research paper and edu, 1 bulb should suffice. don't trade it away before getting Liberalism
7. bulb Liberalism with your 3rd scientist (only possible without machinery). If you did really well, e.g. with the help of an early infiltrated GSpy, you can instead steal/bulb/research your way up to Astronomy, then liberate either SciMethod or even Biology (didn't get that on deity yet, but SciM is definitely possible)

The good news is that in bts most AIs seem to favor the guilds-economy line over liberalism, at least if you already started researching lib when they get the chance. AI-AI wars help of course.

The bad news is that, no matter how large my tech lead is, the deity AI eats it up in no time, so that around Assembly Line/Radio/Railroad I'm once again hopelessly behind everyone. Maybe we'll learn in the final spoiler how you can keep up through the industrial and modern age...

Now what I still don't get is how UnconqueredSun managed to get that really huge tech lead over *everyone*. Normally I have 1 or 2 AIs very close behind me, and stuff like Astro/PP I can only grab before Lib with a major espionage economy (that's 2 GSpy plus at least 4 sci, only manageable with a philo leader...)

As for the WFYABTA issue, I hardly ever get it. Maybe it's because of the opponents I choose, which of course wasn't possible in this botm
In my experience, AIs which tend to get pleased very soon also tend to trade away everything. Mansa always does, except when building a wonder.

 

[kcd_swede]

I had hoped to do this, but ... one of the bizarrest things of this game for me is, although I was behind MM and Washington i tech for the first 1000 years AD, I actually consistently had multiple techs that JC, WK, GK, Sury did not have, and could have traded to them for, and gotten "towed" like this, for some reason they just would not trade with me. It wasn't the case that I had bad relations, except for GK, Sury was cautious until very late (when I had to "declare war on the infidels"), WK alternated between cautious and pleased, and JC was actually pleased. No, when I went into the diplomatic screen I got the "We fear you are coming too advanced" reason! When I had at most three techs they did not have, and they usually had the same number or more that I did not have? How can they say I'm tto advanced, I'm actually at the same tech level as them aren't I?

This was my major disappointment in the game, to repeatedly research techs that others should want in trade, and then find no one willing to trade Did anyone else have this experience?

WFYBTA explained: In this thread you find the BtS leader thresholds.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288067

These are modified by difficulty level as explained here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

 

[MarkM]

WFYBTA explained: In this thread you find the BtS leader thresholds.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=288067

These are modified by difficulty level as explained here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

Thanks, that was very helpful (although somehow I missed the modifiers for difficulty level in there).

Well, this pretty much shoots my whole strategy (such as it was), which was predicated on trading frequently and freely. I did OK by it while this WFYABTA was not in play, then I hit a wall (I think I actually got WFYABTA within a few turns of getting alpha!) I had seen WFYABTA before, but I always thought it had to do with relative tech components of score. Now I know better, for the famous "next time."

Interesting observations in your post too karmina, thanks.

 

[Erkon]

Thanks, that was very helpful (although somehow I missed the modifiers for difficulty level in there)...

You mean this: "This value is modified by the difficulty handicap defined in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml (100% boost on Settler, 20% boost on Deity)."

Washington thus has 120% of 10 = 12 as iNoTechTradingThreshold at Deity level

 

[Unconquered Sun]

@karmina/MarkM

Karmina is on the right path. Getting Liberalism and establishing a technology advantage over the AIs in the early AD's can be done: and without a large empire too. Great scientists are integral to that because the gpp-beaker ratio of the initial ones is so very favorable.

For those GSes, each scientist in the GP farm contributes a gpp amount translatable to ~50 beakers per turn. Obviously having a decent "traditional" research rate is also vital in clearing techs too cheap or impossible to bulb.

However, this technology advantage won't last forever. GSes become more and more expensive. Leading AIs consolidate huge empires. WFYABTA sets in. At that point, 4-5 cities just won't suffice.

On the other hand, settling just 4-5 cities before being boxed in on deity is a very realistic assumption for most deity maps.

The way out of the trap is leveraging this temporary advantage in technology to get your own large empire.

The poor AI management of great people creates a window of opportunity. More than mere technology advantage is needed though, adequate production capacity is a must.

How is it possible to have "adequate military production" in 4-5 city nation? Well, it depends on many factors such as:

- city on good hammer spot
- city on high food spot
- barbarian/AI ally combat has unlocked heroic epic
- gold
- Globe (if you're a lucky guy with *gasp* 6 cities on standard map)

A HE city can hammer or whip many technologically advanced units in a very short time.

A high food city with Globe can draft every turn.

But what if there aren't any city sweet spots?

There are two tactics to build multiple advanced units available in all games. One is mass upgrading cheap medieval units. It's done with gold acquired from a GM mission (maybe Caste GM, maybe the Economics GM). Occasionally selling techs to the AIs alone accumulates enough gold.

The other tactic is to draft, draft, draft while raising the culture slider all the way to 100% if you need to.


Now, let me illustrate the entire concept, using pics from an epic speed deity challenge played on apolyton.


Step one, early Liberalism...

...achieved via GPPs and adequate traditional research rate, in just one supercity (also, notice the Economics GM reading up to travel to distant Lisboa)

Finally, combining technology advantage (MilTrad and Astronomy/Chemistry) and gold to create an army powerful enough to destroy AI superior numbers of medieval units and rapidly overwhelm the mainly coastal empires of Zulu and then Korea. Those cuirassiers and frigates (for bombardment) are in fact upgraded elephants and triremes.

By the way, notice how the admins on Apolyton were nice enough to choose a map with the starting settler blocking land for 3 more cities...

I could say the admins here were even nicer by blocking land for a dozen more cities and letting us all off the hook of mandatory war and blessing us with gentle Washington as a neighbor, instead of Gilgamesh, but that is not entirely true. Unfortunately, I can't comment on the nature of the challenge on this map and the way I resolved it before the final spoilers are in. Stay tuned!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Interesting. If I can temporarily drop from my game admin role , there's one thing I'm puzzled about in that analysis. Your city screen screenshot shows Washington as size 19 in 355AD. In all my playing I can't recall ever having a city nearly that big so early on. How is that possible? Sure, it's got a lot of food, and if you were running a massive food surplus for much of the game then I've no doubt you could get it that big. But if you were doing that you wouldn't be able to run many scientists and you'd have to farm instead of cottage, so it wouldn't have been able to contribute much research (the screenshot shows it's actually starving with all the scientists you are currently running). Also it has a ton of buildings which my instinct tells me could only be achieved with a lot of whipping (which again would stop the city getting so big).

That doesn't add up in my brain. How can you get the city that big AND get it to have contributed the massive research through the BC and early AD years to help push to liberalism that quickly AND built so many buildings. I can easily see how you'd get any one of those, but all three?

Also, how did you get it that happy? The screenshot shows that you have a lot of happiness resources but the map doesn't seem to show that many resources in your empire (I find it a bit hard to tell for sure with the resource bubbles off), so I'm guessing you must be paying for some of them with cash to AIs? Which would dent your research rate a bit?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And by the way, reverting back to my moderator role, unconquered_sun's demonstration refers to a different game, not BOTM 10, so it's not strictly covered by spoiler rules, but even so I'd prefer any significant post-500AD discussion to be confined to the final spoiler when that's released, to avoid any confusion. (Strictly speaking this thread shouldn't be used to discuss non-BOTM-10 games, but unconquered_sun's posts are so obviously relevent to people's strategy when playing BOTM 10 that I think it's fair to relax that for now )

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Interesting. If I can temporarily drop from my game admin role , there's one thing I'm puzzled about in that analysis. Your city screen screenshot shows Washington as size 19 in 355AD. In all my playing I can't recall ever having a city nearly that big so early on. How is that possible? Sure, it's got a lot of food, and if you were running a massive food surplus for much of the game then I've no doubt you could get it that big. But if you were doing that you wouldn't be able to run many scientists and you'd have to farm instead of cottage, so it wouldn't have been able to contribute much research (the screenshot shows it's actually starving with all the scientists you are currently running). Also it has a ton of buildings which my instinct tells me could only be achieved with a lot of whipping (which again would stop the city getting so big).

That doesn't add up in my brain. How can you get the city that big AND get it to have contributed the massive research through the BC and early AD years to help push to liberalism that quickly AND built so many buildings. I can easily see how you'd get any one of those, but all three?

Washington often worked all the farms, instead of running specialists. A sustainable rate of 100 bpt is about enough to clear obstacles to bulbs, so Washington's peaking 200-300 from time to time and the steady commerce from my other cities is enough.

In terms of GPP, ideally you want 1 GS for academy, 1 for Philo, 1 for Paper, 2 for Education, 1 for Liberalism. In reality, three are enough to get Liberalism first (1 philo 1 edu 1 lib, or 1 philo 2 edu - also allows machinery).

Back to Washington, it has a GS available and produced a GSpy; but I didn't bulb Paper nor Philosophy (AFAIK I went 2 edu, 1 lib, trading for philo and self-researching paper). So, six GP by 355AD, that's 1+2+3+4+5+6 =21*150.

Washington nearly makes 150 gpp in a turn. So, at turn ~200, the city needed to run specialists for less than 30 turns total, assuming I had spent all the other turns growing to 19.

Growing from 1 to 19 with granary requires ~1100 food surplus or so on epic. At optimum growing size (12, working only food positive tiles), Washington had a surplus of 24 per turn.

At 17, the 100 AD (turn 180) pic, Washington spend 3 more turns finishing Liberalism in 145 AD and filling half a GP, then hammered the university with mines on (45 hammers per turn) and grew with a surplus of +18 to size 18 v an empty food bar of ~42 accounting for granary. The 18 to 19 empty food bar was ~44. With the overflow, it took 2 turns to grow 18 -19. So, on turn 188 Washington was at 19. At turn 189 the city completed its university. There are still 8 turn left to 355 AD (turn 197) to finish the GS, start on another GP (wonders and free specialists alone generated over 600 gpp in 17 turns), and apparently to sneak in a Harbor as well.

Finally, second city had stone and Washington used to have a lot more forests. The GW was fully chopped and chopping contributed a great deal to the Mids too. Being Charismatic and Expansive didn't hurt either.

Bottomline is, growing is fast in CIV, and cities ought to be grown to caps as soon as possible. While this lasts, irrigations > cottages. When it's over, run specialists, work mines, or kill the remaining food surplus by cottaging/workshopping (whatever is appropriate for the strategy employed).

EDIT: Had to redo some values to account for epic.

 

[Htadus]

Wow, that is some demonstration.

OK nowto my story of getting by.

Goal: Survive till 500AD

Results: I am alive...I am alive........ But it is only 470(?) AD and Julius has too much on his hands and MAN does he have a bunch of stacks.

Untill recently I have only played xOTM's. So my comfort level is Monarch to Emperor. Last Immortal game I had very early six cities and nearly all important WW but only 6 military units when Cyrus had enough. Game was not over since there were three production cities and we had enough units soon we took back the only city we lost. But then Bismark DoWed and the game was not over but I quitted. The plan with this game was not to get in to the same sittuation in this game. So with that in mind....

Settled one east to get a strong production capital. Learned fishing, Mining and BW. The plan was to go for Rathouses via the Oracle but someone built it just a turn before we had Priesthood (very later). So decided to go for CoL immidiately after Writing. Bad choice - should have gone for pottary first.

We built a worker and chopped a WB and a few warriors before chopping a settler. Barbs settled a city on a hill to the east nearer to copper. So when the fisrt two warriors got the the coast tile west of copper and fortify, the bloody barbs kill one warrior and damage the other. Settler get there and play hide and seek untill another rushed warrior show up to back up the survived unit. The survived unit get CR2 promotion and later get promoted to an axe from the money the Scout popped from a hut. The turn we attack a archer popped up and the cr2 bites the dust but we get an awsome city.

By this time the scout discovered the narrow peninsula and I said "Thank you DS" outloud. The game creator was very generous and thank you for that.

My first mistake (minor) of the game was to settle another city on the eastside on dye by accident. Oh well...what was I thinking. On the Sula two barb cities pop up as an axe and a spear escort land there before the settler arrive. One was on a hill with 4 arches and the other with 1 warrior. The warrior city has 2 Gems on the fat cross and fall to us on turn 100 and two archers from hill city come to take it back and die. Three axes and a cr2 spear try to take the hillcity w/two archers on turn 112 and fail. Only the spear survive. The settler hangs around for a long time untill swords show up and raze the hill city. I was so involved in the capturing process I forgot about the economy which was all but dead. Stopped the game on turn 117 to just to figure out what to do next since 72 turn were left on CoL. I felt like I was going no where in a hurry.

Second session: Changed research to pottary and then back to CoL. Get CoL (T153) after Mansa by a few turns but was able to trade for most of the basic techs, Math and Ironworks. Yahoo there is Iron on one of the hills next to the captured barb city. Science focus on Civil Service after CoL.

I make my second mistake (this one was major) of the game at this point. I had intended on getting Philosophy from my first GS to come to tech parity but did not know that GS would bulb Alphabet before Philo. I did not trade for Alpha because all the AI had it and I figured it is not needed for trades. Next to make things worst, I unintentionally build an Acadamy in the capital instead of the gem city as planned. Oh well, I will build a few cottages in the Capital.

In the mean time We have changed to castsystem, Organized religion and declared war on Mansa (on behalf of the Great Julius). I had said no to join in wars to Suri, Kahn, Wongkan but just could not say no to man with several stacks of over 20 units each.

Currently it is 460 AD, paid 115 g from captured Barb cities to Mansa for peace, researching Paper, and have 10 cities total and will fill the rest of the Sula with Holy Roman cities. Most of the early Cities are up to 8-9 population and about to switch back to Slavery to get some improvement built in the captured cities. We will likely get Education before anyone and possibly Lib since I have not traded for Machinary yet.

I plan to get the economy straigtend out with about 15 cities and then going to go balistic. The main problem I see is the fact both Kahn and Ceasar is hindu as well as many others while Mansa and Washington is Buddhist. I would like to get Kahn and Julius to go after each other. But the Biggest problem I see is that cautious Julius may be looking in my way. I may need be building many axes and Phants soon. Sooner than I am ready.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender. Goal: faster cultural victory then changad my mind to faster diplo victory.

Early game

Spoiler :

Settle in place.
Research AH to build WBs faster, then fishing-mining-BW (bc of barb city)-sailing- Wri-Alpha.
Production: Worker-Warrior-2WB-Warrior in a hurry-exploring WB-Warrior- Settler.
Scout dies in turn 10 at ridiculous chances.
Barb city S of copper, will be an excellent GPFarm.
Settle W of copper on the river in order not to need roads. There is 1 single warrior in the barb city, 1 Axe will be enough, I have optimised the settler and worker timing…. but a wondering barb Archer bothers my worker. By the time I whip my first Axe there are 2 Archers + 2 Warriors in the city. I take it with 5Axes, from that point (1700BC) on I am paying 10gpt for unit maintenance. AI has 7 cities while I have 3.

Serious mistake 1: I could have trapped a barb Worker but left him run away!
Serious mistake 2: Exploring WB find North pole JC city taken from barbs and turns around instead of waiting for writing and OB. There was not to be another way East!

Economic crash

Spoiler :

Build my 4th city in 1475BC in the Scout landmass, cottage city.
All AI met 1000BC and one settler ready to settle on the marble E of Wash. Marble is worth a useless city far from home for a cultural victory. But…

Serious mistake 3: I delay settling on marble and getting the close by gold, because I want to save some coins in maintenance, then Wash settles a city 2 tiles away from marble. I have to settle SE of marble, losing 9gpt, without hopes for gold and with cultural pressure on the marble tile.

900BC, Alpha. I get tech parity, I make people pleased. 5 cities. I am getting 0gpt at 0% research. Barb upraisal forces me to trade for Archery too. No religions at all.

Serious mistake 4: I start researching Aesth, when clearly Calendar is the only way out of the economic hole I am in.

Barbs take the Wash city near the marble. I take the chance, conquer the Barb city and…
Serious mistake 5: I don’t want the city. I am given the option to gift it back to Wash. I think about cultural pressure on the marble tile and decide to raze the city. Wash is cautious! I have gotten a permanent “-2 you razed out city”. Wash at pleased was the perfect buffer to avoid surprise wars.

Academy in capital in 320BC. Musa gifts Poly, I trade for Medi, PH and some coins. I am killing my future through WFTYHBTA. Wan stack coming close to marble city. Whip some defences, 2 Axes+Arc are waiting on my hill city… Wan dows, I lose the city without killing a single unit. I check the odds, I have lost twice at 97%, once at 60%. Boh!

Serious mistake 6: I read BOTM09 results. I don’t want a cultural victory now, I’ll go for Diplo (UN). I could have won or I could have lost my cultural attempt. I will win or I will lose my diplo attempt. But, for sure, changing horses in the middle of the race is not to be recommended.

Forget Aesth, Calen too because it is widely known. Revolt to CS, hire scientists in order to crawl to CoL.

Musa and Wash are hindu. The rest of the world is budist. Budism has not spread to my lands yet. I’m in despair. When I finally get CoL it’s too late. I have fallen behind in the tech raze. All my hammers go into useless galleys, I don’t lose any nets, but I lose a bunch of galleys (at what odds!). I kill more or less as many barb galleys as I lose. Conquer some barb cities. JC hands are full, but it wasn’t me but Musa.

Back in bussines again

Spoiler :

Bulb Philo and get CS in 200AD, revolt to Bureau+Paci+HR. trade my way back into the game (at the cost of some minuses with the hindus). My cities grow now that I know how to make a plantation. Pay Philo for peace, I am the most advanced Civ now.

Serious mistake 7: I agree to dow Musa at Gen request. It does give me a temporary +1 with Gen and JC, but not a +1 “you helped us during war time”. When I pay 100g for peace later on, all bonuses disappear. Why? I though 1 of the bonuses of shared war was forever (?). Now, minuses “you dowed us”, “you dowed our friend” are forever.

I run pacifism without a state religion till budism finally spreads. A volcano wreaks havoc in my lands but not in Wash lands, I guess all the lava fell Westwards. Musa gets to Paper before me. I am working just 14 cottages (and all of them are really young). This is not the way to win an early diplo game.

Stats:

Spoiler :

1000BC: 4cities, 12pop. fhg=46, 13, 56. 28sust bpt, 175g. Copper, 0happy, 4health. Set, 3Wor, 2War, 3!Axe, 3WB, Gall. 2Lib, Monu. 7cpt, 6GPPpt. 0WW,0NW,0GP. 8techs: almost Alpha, BW, AH, Sail. 0/0 cottages. 0civs killed. 4hours.

1AD: 7cities, 35pop. fhg=104,36,74. 40sust bpt. 8Wor,Set, 15(Swo), Gal, 2WB. horses, copper, Iron. 4happy, 6health. 28cpt,4spt, 18GPPpt. 0WW,0NW,1GP,0GG. 22techs: Alpha, PH, IW, no mason, no calen. 3reli. 4/5 cottages. 0 civs killed. 9hours.

Questions for UnconqueredSun (or anyone, I really need help here)

Spoiler :

1.- Did you really not build a worker first thing? What’s the reasoning behind that decision? Had I not seen the results you got, I would have said that was a noob mistake!

2.- I usually try to have 4 cities in 1000BC and 6 cities in 1AD in my cultural Deity attempts. My economy crashed with 5 cities in 900BC (one of them far away and useless researchwise).
What is in your opinion my fundamental mistake?
- Too many cities?
- Too few cottages? (0 in 1000BC, 4 in 1AD, 14 in 500AD).
- Too few happy resources? (Calendar 220AD!, Monar 220AD!, Drama never).
- Other?

General question: isn’t this a bug?

Spoiler :

I have 20 hammers on my archer, but I am building another thing fisrt, while I keep the Archer in the queue. I research Feud. I want a longbow. 2 options:
- I finish the previous build or take it out of the queue without touching the archer in the queue. The 20 hammers are useful towards the longbow
- I click on the Archer. It gets out of the queue. There is not way to put it back. If I put a longbow in the queue, it starts at 0 hammers. My 20 hammers are lost.

 

[Erkon]

...
2.- I usually try to have 4 cities in 1000BC and 6 cities in 1AD in my cultural Deity attempts. My economy crashed with 5 cities in 900BC (one of them far away and useless researchwise).
What is in your opinion my fundamental mistake?
- Too many cities?
- Too few cottages? (0 in 1000BC, 4 in 1AD, 14 in 500AD).
- Too few happy resources? (Calendar 220AD!, Monar 220AD!, Drama never).
- Other?...

I got Monarchy 1150 BC as a gift from Mansa and Calender (trade) 440 BC. I had three cities 1 AD. CS 40 AD, Paper next turn. And I think I was very late with my techs

 

[MarkM]

Unconconquered Sun, I want to thank you for your detailed replies, to what perhaps came across as frustrated requests. I look forward to your final spoiler. In fact, if it's detailed enough I look forward to playing this game again (not something I normally do in xOTM) trying out what I learn from you.

I confess right now, I'm a little bit in DS's shoes, I see what you have, but I'm not sure I understand how you got there. And to add to what he said: I can't believe/understand how you got to that high a happiness cap without any happiness bonus buildings at all (except theater, but that only adds +1 since you are running 100% science). Two monasteries but no temples! And it boggles my mind that you got all those wonders in there without even building a forge!

I would have thought it a no-brainer to build a forge there -- more happiness plus production enhancement. But I guess that's the point -- I look at it as a no-brainer. I clearly need to think more, and question every assumption I make. Thanks again.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Also, how did you get it that happy? The screenshot shows that you have a lot of happiness resources but the map doesn't seem to show that many resources in your empire (I find it a bit hard to tell for sure with the resource bubbles off), so I'm guessing you must be paying for some of them with cash to AIs? Which would dent your research rate a bit?

Looking at the map, my resources are:

2 clams near SW city
2 golds near SW city

1 cow near capital
1 cow near capital
1 elephant near capital
2 fish in total (capital/E city)

2 dye near E city
1 wheat near SE city
1 crab near SE city

Four surplus resources likely buy me four of the import resources: banana, gems, silver, spice, wine.

It's possible I paid for the 5th resource because in that game I had only 4 cities, small military, and lots of techs to trade to lots of AIs, often for cash only. Another explanation would be that the E city is settled on a dye (a fifth extra resource).

What's important is just one extra resource contributes to an extra scientist in Washington. A scientist there makes 9 gpp/turn, that early in the GP numbers this is worth dozens of beaker equivalent, more than the AI would charge for a happy/health resource.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Unconconquered Sun, I want to thank you for your detailed replies, to what perhaps came across as frustrated requests. I look forward to your final spoiler. In fact, if it's detailed enough I look forward to playing this game again (not something I normally do in xOTM) trying out what I learn from you.

MarkM, my BOTM game isn't finished yet, all I can say is nothing - moderator. I did use some uncommon strategies on the way, and I hope I have the time to make a detailed spoiler.

I confess right now, I'm a little bit in DS's shoes, I see what you have, but I'm not sure I understand how you got there. And to add to what he said: I can't believe/understand how you got to that high a happiness cap without any happiness bonus buildings at all (except theater, but that only adds +1 since you are running 100% science). Two monasteries but no temples! And it boggles my mind that you got all those wonders in there without even building a forge!

I would have thought it a no-brainer to build a forge there -- more happiness plus production enhancement. But I guess that's the point -- I look at it as a no-brainer. I clearly need to think more, and question every assumption I make. Thanks again.

AFAIK I didn't have Metal Casting when the wonders were built. Moreover, from the spoilers you see I favored health and science buildings to the forge and happiness buildings. The main reason to prefer, say, a harbor over the forge is 1+3=4 points difference in unhealthiness/health benefit.

As for monasteries over temples: I don't hesitate to use the culture slider to combat unhappiness when I have to. Running the maximum number of scientists is more important than losing 10% of the commerce generated empirewide (and it's not that much btw, specialists likely contribute over half of the beaker output empirewide as it is). Spending hammers on monasteries instead of temples makes beaker benefit in good times (no need for slider because of good trades with the AIs, or whatever) or makes up for 10% culture slider in bad times.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Questions for UnconqueredSun (or anyone, I really need help here)

Spoiler :

1.- Did you really not build a worker first thing? What’s the reasoning behind that decision? Had I not seen the results you got, I would have said that was a noob mistake!

2.- I usually try to have 4 cities in 1000BC and 6 cities in 1AD in my cultural Deity attempts. My economy crashed with 5 cities in 900BC (one of them far away and useless researchwise).
What is in your opinion my fundamental mistake?
- Too many cities?
- Too few cottages? (0 in 1000BC, 4 in 1AD, 14 in 500AD).
- Too few happy resources? (Calendar 220AD!, Monar 220AD!, Drama never).
- Other?

1. Yes, I worked cows for size two (about the time to research Fishing) and then concentrated on WBs and had the first one out about the time your worker was completed. I can't look back atm, but I probably whipped the worker in full from pop 4. What were your stats when you completed BW?

2. Crashing economy on the highest levels is quite natural, but you need your ticket out before you lose ability to research.

The income phases in early game are:

1. when the palace is the main contributor
2. when resource tiles are the main contributor
3. when Writing or Pottery come around (former allows scientists, latter cottages)
4. when a converter tech is available (alpha or currency)

People who rush/rex on the highest levels usually crash economy at the time of 2. or 3., and when they lack writing/pottery at all, or they have some libraries/cottages (especially non-financial ones) but the rex/rush is too large, they fall behind badly.

In fact, there is an Immortal University thread about Charlemagne where the map was all about recovering from a ~mandatory rush as soon as possible.

Back to BOTM, this map has the horrible ability to crash economy as early as the palace phase. It offers so much land to settle+Imperialistic, but nearly no commerce resource tiles to work. I was content to leave lots of space to the AI, build libraries/work some cottages, get Aesthetics and trade for Alphabet. Once I had it, I was guaranteed to clear obstacles to my first bulb (Philosophy) by building science if needed. I was tempted to go for Calendar, but Math was too much of an obstacle, expensive and useless for AI trading.

Mind you, this map offers an alternative converter tech: masonry via the Walls chop trick. Although I didn't, it's very likely getting the most of it is the fastest way to Liberalism.

In the midgame, the main research contributors are GSes and supercapitals. Having at least one of the three ways to achieve high happy cap is a must: monarchy, drama, or lots of happy resources (read Calendar + appropriate map), without happiness cities, especially supercities, are too small. In my game, I had Drama early but didn't use it because I traded for Calendar and had many options for resource deals.

One final note: GS #1 should not always go for Academy. If the slider is in a real bad shape, it's best to settle. If there's an opening promising multiple relevant tech trades, bulb.

 

[Jove]

I don't see a lot of talk about trading resources with the AI. Maybe I am doing well in this category? Once I had a few resources and currency hit the scene, I made trades for 7-9gpt, earning 31gpt in foreign income at 500AD. I was making a profit at 100% science until the 300's. I still have plenty of gold and am conquering barb towns at 500AD. Not one courthouse yet either, so there is room to grow the economy later. I'm only generating about 110 beakers though.

The game isn't going as well as some however, I must have made some boo-boos. At 500 I 'm still a few turns from CS. I took the time to go for Engineering. Trebs and pikes will be necessary to take that Roman town in the sweet spot SE. But CS first would have probably been smarter.
Bad luck in the capitol- a hurricane blew down our library in Aachen. It still isn't re-built. I'm running Caste System but still have only had one GS, used for Mathematics.

The hurricane slowed research on Engineering too much and it wasn't worth any techs in trade. I'd hoped for at least Feudalism, maybe CS, but no. A pair of great people could put me back on the tech pace.

7 towns, 5 of them west. Major shortage of workers. I'm not sure of my chances this time...

 

[jesusin]

Thank you very much, Unconquered Sun.
Your posts offer a deep insight into the game. This is one of the most educative threads we have had in xOTM, and we owe that mainly to you.

1. Yes, I worked cows for size two (about the time to research Fishing) and then concentrated on WBs and had the first one out about the time your worker was completed. I can't look back atm, but I probably whipped the worker in full from pop 4. What were your stats when you completed BW?

I need to look into this much deeper. I can't give you my BW stats right now. Please, be pacient, when I finish the game I'll replay my moves up to BW and I will come back here to report.





After re-reading all you have written here, comparing it to my way of playing, I get the following conclusions:

- I already knew all that you said.
Now, thinking "I've already read about this sometime ago" is not the same as putting your knowledge to good use in practice.

- You have evolved from "early war to win deity" to "medieval/rennaisance war when I have a tech advantage". I am still in the "kill them early if there is a chance, pray for enough land otherwise" phase.

- I am very bad at foreseeing. Last game I realised I needed to research CoL after finishing the Pyramids. More than once I have realised I didn't have 6 libraries in place after having finished Educ. This game I didn't really considered the value of Calendar till after I had unhappy faces in my cities. I am good at long term cultural planning, but I really need to improve at medium term needs foreseeing.

- You put way more emphasis on city sizes than me.
"Size doesn't matter", anyone?
My GPFarm excepted, I think in terms of "marginal benefit of the next worked tile" and I am hardly ever compelled to use the cultural slider to 10%.

 

[jesusin]

I don't see a lot of talk about trading resources with the AI. Maybe I am doing well in this category?

I think so. I had similar trades too, leading to similar total income. Even with it, I was doing 0gpt at 0% research.

 

[jesusin]

The income phases in early game are:

1. when the palace is the main contributor
2. when resource tiles are the main contributor
3. when Writing or Pottery come around (former allows scientists, latter cottages)
4. when a converter tech is available (alpha or currency)

Phase 3 methods are not immediate at all. Having writing requires CoL or building several libraries in order to have a meaningful impact on research. Having Pott requires workers cottaging and pop working "weak" tiles for them to mature.

So, getting into financial problems at the same time as you finish researching Pott or Wri won't save the day.


I try to avoid phase 4 methods, unless in special circumstances. Sure enough, I used them this game.

 

[Nioco]

As my title say I am more in the low category hoping to survive more than shine in this game !
I did the same as others, sttling in place, researching first mining/BW just to chop everything as soon as possible including WB and the oracle that I got in 1400 BC for CoL.

Manage to settle west of copper and take the south barb city...that was defended by 4 archers on hill with 20% cultural defense...thanks to washington huge stack that did not manage to take the city in one turn

I traded CoL for most tech and bulb theology with the GP that I got while running priest along the oracle city (capital).

Could not start asap on Apostolic palace as my neighbours were all hindu..and I got only confucianism and christianism in my cities

I decided to focus on developpement while hoping hindu would come (My army was so low that I did everything to keep everyone pleased). Settled the west island and developed peacefully by chopping some barb heads until the city near elephants.

Hindu came meanwhile and I rushed the AP near 400 AD while Mansa already knew theology...I whip it as soon as I could meaning my poor capital was undevelopped for a long time (too many of my galleys died with weird odds and I had to build like 3 times all my work boat until I got metal casting).

Near 500 AD I had explored ...nothing (huge mistake but as all my ships were destroyed I was a little shy) and started to send missionary and please Washington as much as I could. Research wise I was underdog but not miserable, my economy allowing some 100 bpt.

The bad point was that the khmer hated me...no open border

Ofc I hope for a domination victory