Botm 15 Pregame Discussion

[cammell]

Isnt better to settle 1SE ? to grab foodplains not losing pigs&wine??

Now that I look carefully it does appear we have FP there. Is it worth a lost turn? The scout is in a good position to give us the answer

Loosing one turn isnt much for me at level skill i play. Scout can go two ways, to the hills W or E. Ill probably check eastern one..

 

[kcd_swede]

Maces will have closer to 35% odds. Shock requires 2 promos, formation 3. Only aggressive maces or toku's UU would hold up. Otherwise we're looking at 8 str combat II (assuming the AI takes the optimal promotions to attack/defend vs elephants...remember we're talking about the AI!) vs 8 str combat I/shock. Elephants are the same hammer cost as pikes too, so you don't fall behind there either.

Of course, there's a number of other considerations, like that elephants have access to 2 promos as soon as they're available if you build a stable, whereas the AI needs theo or vassalage to match 2 promos. Also, they'll likely be available long before maces, engineering, etc, and sometimes before longbows. Surviving elephants will of course be even better promoted than just 2.

I rarely use elephants since I find catapults so much more effective (and cheaper). Regarding the UU in this game, its added advantage only seems to work when attacking stacks outside cities. I don't know about you, but for me that's a fairly rare situation. My wars are often like this: my big stack enters territory on a DOW, the AI is militarily unprepared and hides behind strong culture borders of a city. Then I either suicide some cats or wear down defenses, depending on how many cats and how much of a hurry I have, and mop up wounded units with just about any unit will do.

Now... if I want a pillaging stack I can see the use of an impenetrable stack in the field. But it can't move fast enough with elephants/ballista, imo. Also, I usually only pillage in territory I am too weak to conquer, (or if I'm going broke) so its not a thing to be aiming for in my play style.

But if the chance comes up, I may try out your stack composition just to learn some new tactics.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The elephants are just to cover your catapults. It's still the catapults that have to do the damage vs cities. But, when the AI gets crossbows, maces, and even knights, you are still OK with your elephants and axes. It won't attack your stack with maces vs shock phants typically, and everything else either dies to elephants handily OR loses to the axes. Obviously, however, you don't want to spend 10 years bombarding vs castles, so while this window is pretty big it isn't forever.

I agree that the BE isn't anything special. Actually I make the case frequently that it's the crappiest UU bonus in the game - but the unit it is based on is still a very, very good unit. Without elephants you'd need at least longbows for stack protection, and then x bows to deal with the maces, and then pikes to deal with the knights. Elephants let you skip all that, at CONSTRUCTION/HBR. That's a lot of leverage...

At least we're not on epic or marathon where it would be super abusive.

 

[Volapyk]

Speed: Epic

Actually we are on epic

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Actually we are on epic

????????


(EDIT: Ah, I understand now. I thought your message was directed at me and indicating some problem in the original game announcement. You were actually correcting TheMeInTeam - ta to Niklas for clarifying to me).

 

[lroumen]

I would probably start with something like this

- scout 1NE, 1SE
- if nothing good: settler 1E, 1E
End turn
- If nothing good is closeby, scout 1SE, 1SW
- settler either settle or 1E+settle (2N of pigs)

warrior -> worker -> worker (chopped) -> archer (chopped)
-> archer (chopped) -> settler (chopped) -> etc.

bronze working -> animal husbandry -> archery -> etc.

 

[greatbeyond]

Has Gosha just inadvertently named the challenge VC? After all we don't want him to show us all up again.

Apparently I should have looked at the last set of results before suggesting the above. Perhaps a VC where you can only build BEs.

 

[kcd_swede]

I agree that the BE isn't anything special. Actually I make the case frequently that it's the crappiest UU bonus in the game - but the unit it is based on is still a very, very good unit. Without elephants you'd need at least longbows for stack protection, and then x bows to deal with the maces, and then pikes to deal with the knights. Elephants let you skip all that, at CONSTRUCTION/HBR. That's a lot of leverage...

At least we're not on epic or marathon where it would be super abusive.

Agreed on Ballista's. For protecting stack (defense) they get no bonus at all, only on offense outside city. What a joke.

Perhaps my sparing use of elephants comes from playing so much Quick speed games. With CS-sling you can get maces almost as fast. If I pop HBR from a goody hut or make good trade that's different. But also rare. But when you get them early enough, elephants do provide a decisive edge.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually we are on epic

/reading carefully .

Very well, I'll try to demonstrate it then.

...er...

Assuming we actually get them reasonably accessible. That's the snag with elephants.

 

[Deckhand]

DS, You neglected to introduce Suryavarman properly, along with a theme for this month's game.

Something like this:

In honor of Valentine's Day, our leader will be the most manly of men (who else has "man" in their name?), Suryavarman. Or S'man as he is known to the ladies.
S'man has a big Expansive heart and is likely the most Creative lover in Civ.
His good looks are beyond description.
No other leader has Ball('phant)s like he does.
This month's theme will be Spread the Love.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Speaking of Valentines, this game better have Izzy in it <3 <3 <3 !!!!

 

[jesusin]

No time to write the BOTM14 spoiler and already downloading BOTM15... ug!

Nothing intelligent to say about the starting position, so all I'll add is this: good luck, everybody, have fun!

 

[LowtherCastle]

With that wall of forests to the south and no visibility from the SE plains hill, my guess is that there's a nice juicy fat cross down there, on the river and including the pigs. But I'll be doing the same as others, sending the scout east and if nothing special, sending the settler to the western plains hill.

Good luck folk!

 

[GreatWaldoneous]

1. yes! Construction + HBR = too much bulbs

2. additionally: WE is not effective against spears.

3. final reason: I just do not like WEs

Yea, but WE's are effective for taking down stacks of macemen/crossbows so they're an excellent defense/offensive unit for multiple scenarios... If only Ballista Elephants were cooler, or just had different bonuses...

 

[PaulisKhan]

If only Ballista Elephants were cooler, or just had different bonuses...

Worker elephants!

 

[cammell]

No spoilers !!

Moderator Action - Spoiler Info removed - DS

:/

 

[Niklas]

cammell, regardless of your assertion that is a spoiler. There is a very simple rule, "No posting in the pregrame thread after starting the game", that's really all there is to it. The spoiler threads will be up soon, please have some patience and wait for them to appear.

 

[lroumen]

Question to you all about a foresty starting position such as this one.

Suppose you settle in place. You have pigs and a plains hill. You also have ~10 forests.

Say you have a worker and improve the pigs and mine the hill. That gives you some 6 food and 4 hammers, later on a winery gives 2 food, 1 hammer, 5 commerce. Workers take 90 hammers (?), so that would mean 9 turns per worker, bit faster later on....

In one of my previous games, I treated a similar city as a worker/settler producing city, leaving the forests in peace, later preserving them and getting a few more and building the national epic and national park. Is that decent as a great person farm kind of idea or just too late or too idyllic?

In my last non-HOF game I did the following:
0. My captial had 14 forests in the cross with 2 food resources. I settled there.
1. I blocked my neighbour from expanding beyond 3 cities.
2. Had him build al early useful wonders.
3. Vanquished that neighbour.
4. Jumped my capital to its capital.
5. I did go for early great people using a library with 2 scientists and things.
6. None of the forests of the initial capital were chopped. Beeline to Biology, Preserve the forests, build national epic and national park.

So later on (reasonably early) it turned into a great great people farm with all those free people (with caste system), but perhaps too late? Can anybody provide a suggestion if this is feasible?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Question to you all about a foresty starting position such as this one.

Suppose you settle in place. You have pigs and a plains hill. You also have ~10 forests.

Say you have a worker and improve the pigs and mine the hill. That gives you some 6 food and 4 hammers, later on a winery gives 2 food, 1 hammer, 5 commerce. Workers take 90 hammers (?), so that would mean 9 turns per worker, bit faster later on....

In one of my previous games, I treated a similar city as a worker/settler producing city, leaving the forests in peace, later preserving them and getting a few more and building the national epic and national park. Is that decent as a great person farm kind of idea or just too late or too idyllic?

In my last non-HOF game I did the following:
0. My captial had 14 forests in the cross with 2 food resources. I settled there.
1. I blocked my neighbour from expanding beyond 3 cities.
2. Had him build al early useful wonders.
3. Vanquished that neighbour.
4. Jumped my capital to its capital.
5. I did go for early great people using a library with 2 scientists and things.
6. None of the forests of the initial capital were chopped. Beeline to Biology, Preserve the forests, build national epic and national park.

So later on (reasonably early) it turned into a great great people farm with all those free people (with caste system), but perhaps too late? Can anybody provide a suggestion if this is feasible?

Am I still allowed to give general game advice?

Edit: Looks like no. Forget I put this here.

 

[nokem]

OK. I've manage to clear four precious hours to put a dent into BOTM15

Dilemma: do I follow my instinct and settle on the river, keeping the plains hills for long-term production and maximise bureaucracy potential? Or do I take the advice of the elite players and head for the hills, trading turns and known tiles for fog and a single extra hammer? I would never have considered that a good exchange, but maybe that's why I play at monarch.

I've got to learn sometime. Into the unknown it is. Good luck everyone.

nokem