BOTM 17 Final Spoiler

Errrr shoot...my first GOTM/HOF mod game
I messed up and forgot to save after my last turn
...is it ok if i just replay from last auto save and turn that in?
 
My game was also a cultural victory - however slightly later in 1505AD. I am still very happy with that date.

Same here =D

Eh so...
There was a lot of room for nitpicking and i messed up and joined 1 or two GA's that should've been bombed but its still pretty good for my first GOTM and only cultural victory ever :D
I usually end up neglecting my military and get backstabbed but somehow I managed to get by with only building 2 warriors o_o. By the end I had one lone warrior left =)
Hmmmm I ended up not building any cottages either...just went straight specialists...that probably wasn't the best idea though =/
 
If you have a lot of espionage points, you can use spies and the "support city revolt" mission to eliminate culture defenses for one turn before attacking. You can position spies in AI cities before declaring war. You want them to sit in a city for 5 turns to get the maximum mission discount.

Yes it was a mistake not getting a great spy before the Sury war, didn't have enough spy points for even one city revolt... riots wouldn't have helped against the phants though, but the Formation promo did. Lost 16 conquistadors and had about 40 enemies killed + 10 cities razed in that war... also got me a lot of 4-5 promo veterans for the coming wars.
 
challenger save, goal: religious victory.

Oracle->Machinery 1160BC
Optics 700BC
Apostolic Palace 300BC
.
.
.
Didn't win until 580AD. I'm too embarrassed to give any more details than that.
 
Cultural Victory 1340 AD

This was my first xOTM submission, and I'm a bit of a Civ 4 n00b, so I went for what I thought would be the easiest VC. Founded Conf, Tao & Chris, had Hind spread from Musa. My first and biggest mistake was not getting the early religions. 1GS+2GA from Madrid, 1GA from Music, 9GA from Barca (bombed 7 in Barca, 5 in Seville, none in Madrid). Parth, Sistine and Taj in Madrid, 1240BC Oracle/CS in Seville. The Taj was my second mistake, as I didn't account for the gpp bonus in my final calculations, and it pushed Madrid too fast (this cost me 4-5 turns on the finish date). Diplomacy was +18 with Musa, -3 with Sury (he founded Judaism). Didn't matter, since I finished before he even got Civil Service or Machinery.

All in all, it was a really decent game for me, but I did get really lazy with micro during the city growth / cathedral spam stage and blew it a bit. I actually forgot to farm the damn corn and didn't even notice the culture-flipped banana for a long time, and then went hammer-heavy for quite a while building cathedrals, which left my cities at size 10 when they should have been 16-18. I think I could have probably gone for 1100-1200 AD with the early religions and better mid-game management. I guess that looks like the standard for now. I'm hoping to see a sub-1000AD finish from someone.

This was also my first ever BTS game. I don't know anything about AP diplomatic wins. Since there were 6 religions on my continent, I was really scared of a Buddhist love-fest beating me elsewhere. I was thinking of building the AP just to avoid it, but decided against it. They built it the turn I won. How does that work? What do you need in order to win religious?
 
Won, 1540AD, Culture.

No GS for Academy? It would have brought you much sooner to Liberalism, wouldn't it?
By the way, which date did you get Liberalism?

You didn't take Natio from Liberalism? :eek: No Hermitage???

Was building the AP worth it?
 
2240BC Stonehenge to secure Barcelona borders
1520BC Academy by Johannes Kepler in Madrid
1280BC Convert to Hinduism
1240BC Great Library in Madrid
1120BC Partenon in Seville (GPfarm to be... yeah right, with NE in Madrid...)
950BC Euclid (GS) is Born
925BC Bulbed Philo, adopted pasifism
800BC Oracle for Nationalism
725BC Bulbed paper with Ptolomy
700BC Statue of Zues in Seville
625BC First GA, setteld in Seville
425BC HR for happy
450BC Burned Mikhal Lomonosov for Education
275BC Taj Mahal in Seville
175BC Hypatia (GS) in Seville... AAAARGH Burnt him in Golden Age
50BC Built Sistine Chapel
25BC Louis Armstrong in Madrid (luckylucky) Bombed him in Barcelona
150AD Liberalism for constitution (and switch to Rep)
425AD St. John in Madrid... hrm... settled in Seville for production
700AD Antonin Dvorak born in Seville. Bombed Barcelona again
900AD Democracy: Switch to Emancipation for cottage boost, turn off science
860AD Enrico Fermi (GS) born in Madrid... NOOOOOO Saved him for later
1090AD Aryabata (GS) bron in Madrid... NOOOOO built academy for the 4 culture in Barcelona
1190AD William Shakesphere born in Seville... guess what.. yes bombed Barcelona
1240AD Ramakrishna (GP) born in Madrid... oh well, bye bye Enrico and Rama, hello Golden Age (1250)
1400AD J.S Bach Born in Seville... Ah no, bombed in Seville!
And within 4 turns all cities went legendary in 1440, each doing about 800cpt each with 4 cathedrals (could have done 5...)

SH in a cultural game... very dangerous. Good job on getting your Academy before the GPro was born! :king:

GLIB in a cultural game... suicidal. :(

Parth affects all cities, it doesn't have any effect on your chosing a GPFarm. Why NE in Madrid, though?


Oracle for Nationalism... very interesting idea. :goodjob: But...
- Wouldn't it have been faster getting CS from Oracle and researching Natio in Bureaucracy, instead of researching CS?
- If you've taken Natio from Oracle, what will you take from Liberalism? PP? Not so important, really.


Emancipation... why, where you late to Pottery?
Were the lost turns out of 100% culture paid off by the improved cottages?


The cultural monsters here should be able to do a 1000AD I guess

I agree. If I could replay and change one little decision, only one...
 
3. I always hear that I should settle my GAs before say, 0 AD. Adonias, you settled your first GA in 625 AD. Not knowing when you would win, what is the mathematical return in culture on a settled GA? [You could estimate that you had maybe over 1oo turns left at that point-- does that always equal more than the 4,ooo culture from saving him and bombing later? :confused:

4. Seems like everyone made Seville the GP farm (a beginner like me looked at the river squares around Barcelona and farmed those for my GP farm). I am thinking that using Seville required CivSvc (for irrigation), and what, i.e., where did the water for irrigation start from - or do you have to just build an extra farm near the river outside the BFC at Seville's east to get the irrigation chain started into the Seville countryside? Sorry if this is a real noob question... :confused:

Nice questions here!

3. I settled the Music GA 875BC in a city whose multipliers later were 4. I happened to win some 100 turns later (I didn't had a clear idea at the time). I bothered to check which year had every cathedral been built in that city, when I got Sistine's, etc... the result was 3800c. So I shouldn't have settled it (the 300 coins are not enough, IMO).

When taking this decision you should take into account both the turns till victory and the expected city multipliers. I expected a longer game :blush: and multiplier=5 :blush: in that city.


4. Choosing what to do with every city was a very difficult decision. I choose Sevilla too for the GPFarm. I'll explain my reasoning in my final spoiler.
 
My first BOTM victory! 1804 culture - playing on adventurer save. Founded most religions, teched to Democracy then just built culture. I've no idea how I could have got a faster victory though - I still have lots to learn!

Congratulations! :)

To get a faster victory I'd start by not researching up to Democracy ;) What does Democracy for you in a cultural game?

If you give more info on the things you prioritized during the game, you'll probably receive more pieces of advice. Other things you can do is to ask others why they took the decisions they took.

Also the most important decisions to really improve your finish time are taken in the first 10 turns, so be sure to understand what others did in the first spoiler.


Hey, that signature of yours is in Spanish! :cool:
 
Indeed, if jesusin decides to take a break from the pursuit of his gold medal, we might see here the earliest cultural VC finish of all-time XOTMs. ;)
I played for culture, but you shouldn't put your hopes on my result, I've just played a couple of cultural games in BTS before this one, so I'm a newb here.

Your result is amazing, by the way. :goodjob:

My choice was to cottage Madrid (M) and Seville (S) and have Barcelona (B) as GPfarm.
Could you elaborate a bit more on this all important decision?

Fortunately, I was able to convert both neighbours to my religion (confu) so it was a lovefest until the end.
What a pity :evil:
When did you get Sury up to Friendly? What would you have done if he had dowed the previous turn?

I got Nationalism from Lib in 250AD and shut down research. From then on, I was running rep/caste/FS/OR, until 540AD when I also switched to Pacifism. As I spent
probably too much time in OR building/chopping temples and cathedrals...
Not whipping?
Do you remember how many cathedrals did you have by Liberalism time?

The BC artists were settled (2 in Seville, 1 in Madrid, IIRC) and the remainder were bombed, mostly in Seville but unfortunately I didn't take notes where.
Was settling a good idea? Did you do the maths afterwards?
Which city received the Hermitage?

Who was in the other continent again? :)
Yes, this game felt much easier. And the victory dates are all very good. This should be a lesson: if you want a fast finish, be quick to set up your first 3 cities!
 
final spoiler : cultural win in 1360 AD : only 3 GArtists total (including the one from music!):(

...

Built ermitage in teh top culturing city, and was right about it.

How can that decision be right while having only 3 GA to even out the 3 cities? :confused:

How many turns of difference between your cities going Legendary, please?
 
1400AD cultural victory (Challenger save)

I discovered all religions except Buddhism, and formed a tight Jewish lovefest with Sury and Mansa Musa to spread around the tech love. We never met the other continent, which is probably a good thing because they were all Buddhists who would have hated us.

This was mainly a builder game with lots of wonders and temples, and I stayed in OR for a long time. Madrid was my GP Farm, Seville was focused on production, and Barcelona cottaged the floodplains to provide commerce. But ultimately most of my culture came from buildings and artist specialists.

Some milestones:

2680BC (T33): Stonehenge
1080BC (T73): Pyramids for Representation
1040BC (T74): Oracle (way too early, I only got CoL out of it)
75BC (T112) : Apostolic Palace
25BC (T114) : Literature
325AD(T128): Music (I forgot that I needed this tech for cathedrals - should have focused on it earlier)
1090AD(T169): Liberalism (late because I was focusing on culture buildings rather than teching - only took Printing Press anyway)

Finished at 1400AD (turn 200) with one final Great Artist. I could do better if I did more calculations and planning (and if I were the kind of person who enjoyed that sort of thing). Instead it was fun to blitz through in 4 hours of real time.

Did you build all 6 cathedrals per city? Do you think the 6th one was worth it?

Why so late Liberalism date? Others have reported dates 1000 years sooner, you had Representation...

Only 30 turns from Liberalism to victory... makes you wonder if you even needed to research Liberalism at all. :confused:
 
in my opinion it was because of 6 free hammers per turn in each city for hundreds of turns!
+ it allowed me to stop a war I didn't want

Interesting, I should try that.
 
1460 :culture: victory

Founded 5 religions and Mansa's Judaism spread to me also (so 6 all up). Built all the +50% religious buildings in every city, utilising a Golden Age and some gold-rushing after Liberalism. Built too many GPP-polluting wonders in Barcelona, and got 5 Artists, 3 prophets and 2 scientists. By the end I was producing +924, +1124, +1330 :culture: / turn. Was making abour 10=20 gold/turn at 100% culture.

Looks like I should have just gone with 3-4 religions and not worried about the rush building stage.

Wow, impressive figures.

I wonder what would have happened if you had gone 100% culture much sooner.

Or maybe whip-rushing instead of gold-rushing.
 
sust bpt=44; cpt=398; GPP/t=110;

Unusual stats here! Very low research, incredibly high culture, unbelievably high GPPrate.

How can you get 110 GPPpt so early without NE?

And all that culture? Were you hiring artists already?


Later, I got a GE to rush Oxford University (13 turn build).
Wouldn't it have had a better use as a Golden Age? It would have improved production and culture and next GPP generation in all 3 cities.


Question for experts: Why always save for bombing at very end? Sure… it makes it easy to know which city will need the bombs… but all those tiles you could be taking over in the meantime are lost. Frankly, if you haven’t figured out which cities will need the culture bombs by 500AD, you are negligent (imo). So assuming I know which cities will need the bombs… what is the reason not to bomb asap??? I suppose if you have unfriendly neighbors who resent close culture borders it might add to likelihood of DOW… but in this case that wasn’t a risk. So why save them to the end? (I saved them out of habit but only till about 100 turns left).
I was planning to tell you that in some games you can get dowed and lose a city... in such cases you'll be happy not to have invested any culture bomb in that city. But you are right, we'd better wait for an expert to come and answer.

Another question for experts: If you take over a city by culture and raze it (or in this case autoraze it) does that give you negative diplo modifiers ”You razed one of our cities”??? I was worried about autorazing Timbuktu, but avoided that as I was hoping. Should I have been concerned at all?
Ouch, it's for experts again, then I can't tell you that I think this game culture flipping was disallowed. Nor that when you culture flip a city and then raze it, the previous owner doesn't get mad at you because the city was yours when you decided not to keep it. The city came to you in the first place! In fact, generally the previous owner is more friendly to you because there are less close border tensions.

Unfortunately, my exploring WB was unable to find those missing civs, so after going a circle around our continent I had him take some unworkable crabs to improve health.
Crabs? What crabs? Have I ignored an available health resource???? :eek::faint:

(though I never got a GPro to build the shrine).
Well done. A GPro is a wasted GPerson. If you use it for a shrine, you generate even more GPro points to get even more useless prophets. Money was not a concern at all this game.

I was worried about CS sling since I could not monitor opponent’s progress. Same for Liberalism race which I won in before 600AD (took nationalism for Hermitage, built in Seville which was at the time the worst culture producer). Therefore, I was more conservative rather than getting greedy for a more expensive tech in each case.

What other techs would you have liked to take? :eek:
In a cultural game there's not much more you want anyway. I took the sames techs as you, but I felt quite happy, I wouldn't have chosen any different ones.

I had very super hard time to resist building GLib which until very late was available for a 6 turn build. Don’t want more GS at this point, though.
Same in my game. :)

Also, since the culture game was so simplified by 3-city challenge, I’d expect a good player could beat 1000AD on this game. Be interesting to see if that prediction is correct. OTOH, by simplifying the culture game, you may simply have reduced the margin of victory between the experts and the mid-level players. This will be a fun set of spoilers to read!

This is my favourite BOTM so far. With so many people going for culture, with everybody settling in the same places, with everybody choosing the same 3 cities as Legendary ones... the discussions are bound to be fruitful. No way to have better comparability :goodjob:

By the way, I wonder why almost anyone comments on other people games (?):confused:

We all had the same challenges and many different solutions were tried, don't you all want to know why others did what they did? Why so few questions?

...or maybe it's me, who just asks far too much? :mischief::rolleyes:
 
2) My second mistake was bombing the artists in the same turn to +50,000 to make them legendary, rather than bomb them to just before 50,000 so that they would grow into legendary the next turn, thus saving me a turn. (Is this true - does the computer calculate a cultural victory on the turn when you have 3 legendary cities at the start of the turn??) If so, this would have saved me 1 turn - neglagible really but I am always trying to get better. :crazyeye:

That's right. You'd better pop your last GA and use it one turn sooner so that the bombed city and the other cities all go Legendary at the same time.
 
Just for fun I replayed the end part of the game to see how close you could get to domination without a permanent alliance. Instead of vassalasing Mehmed I left him with a two-tile island city and took a peace treaty, leaving his former land on the large continent to be settled by my vassals. With only a few tiles outside cultural borders and legendary culture in Madrid and Barcelona I had around 55% of the required 62% land (+ more than enough population). There were still some unsettled areas south of Spain but most probably not enough for a domination victory without a PA.
 
I was planning to tell you that in some games you can get dowed and lose a city... in such cases you'll be happy not to have invested any culture bomb in that city. But you are right, we'd better wait for an expert to come and answer.

It never even occured to me to wait till the end to bomb my GA, :confused: They turned legendary on 3 successive turns so I suppose I picked right, although I only had 3 GA to play with I think. Now I know to avoid doing this in normal circumstances. :)
 
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