BOTM 250: Boudica, Monarch - First Spoiler - 1AD

MarleysGh0st

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BOTM 250: Boudica, Monarch - First Spoiler - 1AD

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How are the minor powers affecting your game? Have the major powers made common cause against them or is there trouble there, as well? Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD.

Reading Requirements
If you are participating in BOTM 250, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER
  • You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
  • You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions
  • Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
  • Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
  • Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
  • Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games
 
After couple month hiatus, I was excited to play a new BOTM. I like unusual flavors, so I am enjoying unusual map and minor civs. So far, it is bought easier than expected (contrary to mapmakers warning, minor civs and barbs made only very infrequent, half-hearted attempts to attack me) and more difficult than I expected in terms of development. Map seemed OK to me, but I messed up city placement, and has only pop of 39 by 1AD (although 9 cities and 10th next turn). I tried to prioriize commerce but anyway science output is underwhelming, ~130-150 bpt at 100%.

I also realized that I do not understand in which situations one can build a workboat and a lighthouse. I have problems taking screenshots on my old civ comp, but I do have 2 almost identical cities each on a small fresh water lake - one can build a workboat, the other cannot. Why? Also neither can build a lighhouse even though both are on a "coast". Does it have to be an ocean for a lighthouse? This one really messed my plans.

I decided to play peacefully, to take full advantage of the flavor and to try establish PA. But so far looks like a mistake, AIs beg to be attacked ...

Anybody else played till 1 AD already?
 
You can only build workboats on lakes that have a resource, such as fish. You can't build lighthouses on lakes, only on oceans. If the water is fresh, no lighthouse or other coastal buildings. A city on coast with a lighthouse gets the food benefit also on any lake tiles that are in the BFC.
 
A city on coast with a lighthouse gets the food benefit also on any lake tiles that are in the BFC.
Thanks! That is why I got confused, remembered benefiting from a lighthouse on a lake. It's neat that WB depends on lake having a resource, seemed that way, but I did not suspect the game is so precise. Generally, it creates a lot of opportunity for useless builds, that AI often utilizes.
 
Challenger save. When I settled 2nd city near horse and flood plains, I was surprised by that -4 maintenance(deity would be -3). Then I realized it's probably because the map size modifier affects maint factor: this is a SMALL map. So I decided to slow down, oracled COL and built a shrine so that I wouldnt go bankrupt so easily. TBC
 
Challenger save. When I settled 2nd city near horse and flood plains, I was surprised by that -4 maintenance(deity would be -3). Then I realized it's probably because the map size modifier affects maint factor: this is a SMALL map. So I decided to slow down, oracled COL and built a shrine so that I wouldnt go bankrupt so easily. TBC

Yeah, even for the contender save not going broke was my main focus, not fighting with the minor civs. So I oracled Currency, I don't think I ever did it before.
 
Rather annoyingly I lost the Oracle to male pig Louis, I did start way too late on it, but I didn't count on a minor civ snatching it. So techwise not as far as hoped, the other ladies also didn't help much in terms of tech and indeed maintenance feels stiffer than expected. Catherine's workers at some point started to crawl through my territory towards a horse resource that she of course fancied, in her territory but accross the water from her, so she had to detour. When there were 5 workers building a fort there, I couldn't resist a female backstab and grabbed those. Signed peace soon enough afterwards.

The only wonder I built was stonehenge, especially useful being charismatic. So far more skirmishes with barbs than with the males, especially from the north and west. At 1 AD I'm at 11 cities, 49 pop.
 
Contender save, settled in place.
By 1 AD I have 9 cities, 42 pop. Built SH (2000BC) and Oracled CS 425BC (looks like I got lucky here). Used 1st GP for the Confu shrine, suspecting it will eventually pay off.
Late Alpha got me IW, Monotheism, Monarchy.
Augustus did send invading parties twice. First time it was 5 archers which suicided against a hill city defended by a couple archers (600BC). Then a mix of chariots & archers, which were also taken care of. Luckily they did not have connected metals so far.

Very enjoyable game so far!
 
Rather annoyingly I lost the Oracle to male pig Louis, I did start way too late on it, but I didn't count on a minor civ snatching it. So techwise not as far as hoped, the other ladies also didn't help much in terms of tech and indeed maintenance feels stiffer than expected. Catherine's workers at some point started to crawl through my territory towards a horse resource that she of course fancied, in her territory but accross the water from her, so she had to detour. When there were 5 workers building a fort there, I couldn't resist a female backstab and grabbed those. Signed peace soon enough afterwards.

The only wonder I built was stonehenge, especially useful being charismatic. So far more skirmishes with barbs than with the males, especially from the north and west. At 1 AD I'm at 11 cities, 49 pop.

I encountered the same worker contingent, I did not attack since I was determined to get her to friendly to try PA (and had lots of workers anyway). But in the hindsight, not worth it. So far in BOTM whenever I passed on a free worker opportunity - and this was a big one - I have always regretted it.

Interesting that a minor civ got Oracle in your game - but Louis is Ind. He also got some wonders in my game, but more basic, like 'Henge. Generally, wonder space was very slow, as expected with only 2, non-IND AIs.
 
Contender save, settled in place.
By 1 AD I have 9 cities, 42 pop. Built SH (2000BC) and Oracled CS 425BC (looks like I got lucky here). Used 1st GP for the Confu shrine, suspecting it will eventually pay off.
Late Alpha got me IW, Monotheism, Monarchy.
Augustus did send invading parties twice. First time it was 5 archers which suicided against a hill city defended by a couple archers (600BC). Then a mix of chariots & archers, which were also taken care of. Luckily they did not have connected metals so far.

Very enjoyable game so far!

Interesting, I got almost nothing from Alpha, except of IW and repeated offers to trade meditation.


Interestingly, the only attacks I got from Rome was individual archers wandering into my borders. They did form 5 archer stack, sometimes with settlers, that wandered near my borders but never actually entered :lol:

The Rome also connected Iron quickly in my game - but never build a single Praetorian! Which was really weird, and seemed that my efforts to pillage that mine did not matter. I guess that is a problem with minor civ - they are fun to have around, but for some reason they suck at war much more than a regular AI.
 
With these game settings, I knew it would be a slow game in many respects. Slow economy with limited access to the sea and high maintenance costs, and slow expansion because safety would be an issue. Researched Mining and BW first to get some basic safety with axemen. The minor civs were not that much of a problem, only Augustus were sending any significant amount of units and close to 1AD I found his iron city and razed it. Built Stonehenge to take advantage of the extra smiley plus security from expanded borders and oracled CoL. At 1 AD the Celts have nine cities researching Currency. Tech is slow.
 
I took the Immortal save. 8 cities, 40 pop, 1st in score (though not by a lot over the girls) with 585. The boys are lagging significantly, although Augustus DOES have praetorians. I'm currently working on Construction to prepare for an attack on the Romans (but it'll be awhile). I believe others have noted that teching is a bit slow? ;) I missed the Oracle--could have whipped and gotten it but I thought "Eh, I can have it in 2 turns with natural build--it should be safe." Not. I did get Stonehenge, though, which is handy. While assessing things at 1 AD I noticed I still did not have trade routes with Liz, and although I have marble hooked up, I lack Polytheism and Aesthetics. Well, with teching so slow, you gotta let some things slide.
 
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How are you doing in terms of bpt at 100% research? I could only get ~130, even prioritizing commerce over growth sometimes.

It also seems that nobody got both Stonehenge and Oracle? My theory is that Louis being IND he must be building one of the early wonders. It seems that letting him build Stonehenge helps secure Oracle, we can also probably build the Oracle earlier that way.
 
Challenger Save.
Suspected the Celts on a map like this would be economic tough. First expansion to Fish lake / double Gold to take care of this. -4 maintenance immediately was a clear message. And obviously the gold would not be enough to solve everything.

Expanded to 4 cities fairly quick (the production is nice with all the hills), then held back for a while. I started GWall expecting failgold, but actually got it 1160BC. Now it helped to cut back on unit costs and driving the neighbours into bigger problems. Just a lone archer twice from the minor civs needed to be dealt with.

So when I started the Oracle 1000BC I thought I could afford to build it in 2 turns, which allowed me to grow the cap 1 more size. But no, joining the club of failures, Elizabeth snatched it. In this case I didn't see it as a mayor loss though. I would have taken MC. Now I used the failgold to get to Maths and get faster to Currency, the real lifesaver here. Also I've adopted the English Buddhist religion and will get Elizabeth to friendly, so whatever she got from oracle, I will get it later (no one has Alphabet at 1AD, so can't see).

I did get to Currency and also MC by 1AD, and not much else. Just started forges everywhere. I've got 8 cities, there will be a 9th next turn. That will be all I will settle I think. Focus on tech from here and conquer with knigths or trebs. I don't expect the AI to tech well either. 47 population. 40 beakers at break even, but I can do much better with some wealth building. At 100% 135 and -80 maintenance
I'm also putting non-stop hammers in Artemis for failgold. Rome built GLH. Nothing else after Oracle.
 
How are you doing in terms of bpt at 100% research? I could only get ~130, even prioritizing commerce over growth sometimes.
163 bpt at 100%, 67 at breakeven. That was with a couple minor cities building beakers because they weren't good for much else.
 
Reading Fine_Disctinction's message, I feel like I'm playing a twin. I, too, have had a long break from playing, I also mistakenly thought you could build lighthouses on lakes, and my empire is almost identical at 1 AD (nine cities, the tenth will be built next turn).

The most difficult situation arose with the first settler. Placement of cities and where first? Thank god I decided against gold city and went for the floodplains and the horse (AH!) because later I also discovered that lakes don't connect cities to the trade network like rivers do. In retrospect, I could have saved myself sailing. The third city was a helper city with copper to arm against barbarians and minor civs.

I used the two free wins against animals for my scout to explore the map, but otherwise limited myself to fog busting. So far, only Augustus has sometimes attacked me with individual weak units, barbarians from the west and especially the north roamed around much more often, causing occasional trouble and otherwise providing cheap promotions for my units. In this regard, charismatic is great.

At some point I discovered Elisabeth and scouted her out. She's trying to convert me to Buddhism and has already sent me four missionaries, but I don't have a problem with happy faces at the moment and I don't want to spoil it with Katharina either. In the meantime I also know where the Romans are located and also roughly the Mongols, but Louis' empire is still in the dark for me.

I finished the oracle very early. Thank God I remembered in time that I have to research writing beforehand in order to get CoL. Otherwise for wonders I've only invested hammers in the Temple of Artemis for failgold, but now I'm two turns short of completion. What to do?

Very late I discovered the spot for monster city (elephant, pig, horse, iron, wheat) and would have lost the race for this place by two turnes, despite all my efforts, if Elisabeth hadn't been so stupid as to settle close to the east instead.

Among other things, my micromanagement is not good. For example, I missed the time to whip several times and sometimes mixed up units and sent them in the wrong direction. At the moment my empire is similar to the others. High maintenance, slow technological progress, still number one in the demographics everywhere - even in the military, which is completely untypical for me. Slider about 30% breakeven with 49 beaker, at 100% 137 beaker and -76 gold, pop 47 and production 53.

The other ladiess are quite behind, also technologically. Alphabet is just good for this information. So, with the elephant in my backpack, I'm going in the military direction with construction (catapult) and Horseback Riding (next turn), especially since Boudica is made for warfare. Since I can't judge Augustus Praetorians and know only the borders of his empire, I will probably attack Elisabeth, who mainly has archers.

edit: I still don't know what a minor civ is. #cities=1 according to the screen information, but borders are much larger.
 
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edit: I still don't know what a minor civ is. #cities=1 according to the screen information, but borders are much larger.
I think Minor Civs are excluded from winning the game, and that makes them Minor. On the side they are stand-alones, always at war with everybody. You can't see certain info because you cannot trade with them, no city count, no techs etc.
But they do develop in every way and count for the victory ambitions of the Mayor Civs, land, votes etc.
 
You can only build workboats on lakes that have a resource, such as fish.
Very nice tip!
The Rome also connected Iron quickly in my game - but never build a single Praetorian!
My experience differed significantly. I had a few Chariots watching Roman lands, but I'd lost some of them to Strikes and Augustus got Iron connected. I only clued in when I saw 3 Praetorians appear on the same turn as each other! They were built in 3 different Cities, of course. My remaining Chariots in Roman lands retreated to the Iron, which was also conveniently to the location of the Horse Resource, then played a game of Pillage-and-Stay-Close, while my 1 Archer + 1 Axeman combo played a game of cat-and-mouse with a stack of 2 Praetorians + 6 Archers from Augustus that kept wanting to come toward my Gems City through what was probably a Mountain Peak Pass that had been set up by MarleysGh0st. Of course, the stack retreated to head the long-way-around when I went to the Hills + Forest square, and then would come back to the short pass when I retreated, allowing me to play that game indefinitely.
Otherwise for wonders I've only invested hammers in the Temple of Artemis for failgold, but now I'm two turns short of completion. What to do?
I'm sure that you're past that decision point now, but:
It's a useful Wonder to self-build if you are low on Food Resources and you want to spawn a Golden Age with your first or second Great Person, since you will get to your next Great Person relatively quickly, but the Great Person won't likely be a coveted early Great Scientist or early Great Engineer.

It's a useful Wonder to build yourself if you plan to grow the City Size of the City that built it to greater than Size 10, when the bonuses to Foreign Trade Routes can start to stack up.

It's a useful Wonder to let an AI build if you plan to generate a Great Merchant, as you can often get additional Trade Mission Gold from that City relative to other AI Cities.
edit: I still don't know what a minor civ is. #cities=1 according to the screen information, but borders are much larger.
You cannot perform diplomacy with a Minor Nation and you are locked into a war with the Minor Nation. While you are at war with any AI, be it a Civ or a Minor Nation, the number of Cities that the AI is known to have is limited to the count of Cities that you have revealed on the map, with a value of 1 being the lowest number possible. Note that I haven't tested to see if the number might go down to 0 as a minimum value in a game where "Complete Kills" is enabled and where a player would no longer need a minimum of 1 City (after having settled at least 1 City) to remain alive in the game. Otherwise, you have that minimum of 1 City being required to be alive in the game being listed on the Scoreboard (and AIs plus Minor Nations will settle on the first turn, unless completely blocked from settling, and thus they'll practically always have 1 City at a minimum).

When you are not at war, you have the ability to have a diplomatic talk with a Civ's AI Leader, and thus the Hall of Fame Mod aka the BUFFY Mod will tell you a summary of how many Cities that Civ has, since you could count the amount yourself just by going to the diplomacy screen with an AI. Even in the early game, you can press Ctrl + click on a Leader's Name, when you have nothing to trade, to get this information, and thus you aren't gaining any additional information from the Mod in this regard, but are just getting a convenient tool to summarize the information for you.

The same is true with how you could click on a Leader's Name and ask them what they think about other Leaders... instead, we have the F4 screens to summarize this information for us. Of course, in a game with Minor Nations, you won't see this information summarized for the Minor Nations, and you can actually talk with Elizabeth to ask what she thinks of the Minor Nations, but this information is probably just for fun, as Elizabeth is unable to interact diplomatically with the Minor Nations.


As for me, I took the Challenger saved game. I took LowtherCastle's implied advice and went a bit west with the Settler, to stick by the Rivers. It was an important choice, in hindsight, as it allowed me to build several Riverside Cottages.

As a side note to LowtherCastle, I'd still take a Deer on a River in place of a Deer with a Forest--I agree that the Forest would be preferred for building your first Worker/Settler, but later in the game, you often feel happy enough with getting a Deer without a Forest but on a River, which can happen regularly on a Great Plains map. Since a Forest growing on a Riverside Deer square would make the +1 Commerce from the River go away, it is one of those scenarios where you often just give up on waiting for a Forest to grow and plop a Camp down, knowing that once the Camp has been placed, a Forest won't be able to grow on that square.

I had hoped to find Copper on the starting Plains River square, thinking that we'd have Iron far away and would have to use Copper for our Gallic Warriors. Plains, instead of Grassland, on the starting square, would have made up for the fact that the Mapmaker had (hopefully) put Copper underneath of our Settler, as settling on Copper would not have completed "wasted" the square-gains from the Resource, as we would have still earned an extra Hammer if the square had been a Plains square. Yet, I did not feel that I would have time to get to Bronze Working before the other Worker techs and thus I chose the more conservative route of teching Archery first, then Worker techs.

Warriors are great for fog-busting in most other games. With 3 Minor Nations, fog-busting wouldn't be of much help, and the Units from the Minor Nations would likely also inadvertently help with fog-busting. Therefore, I wanted Units that had a chance to collect Promotions and even Great General Points when fighting Minor Nations' Units, without the high-risk of falling to pieces like Warriors often give us.

I expanded too quickly, getting to 6 Cities, thinking that 2 Gold Resources, 1 Gems Resource, 1 Silver Resource, and 2 Fur Resources would help to pay the bills. They were far from sufficient.

The greatest challenge was the economy. By 1 AD, I had limped my way to Pottery and have been building Cottages on every available square, possible:
Chopping GH Riv Forests and putting Cottages on them, putting Cottages on Plains squares without Rivers, on Grassland flatland or Hills without Rivers; anywhere and everywhere that I can afford to do so, without going as insane as Cottaging over my Rice Resource.
I believe that it was the game in which I had begun working the most Cottage squares by 1 AD in any XOTM game that I have ever played.

Without Masonry for Duns or for Wonder Failure Gold, without Iron Working for Gallic Warriors, and without Writing for hiring Scientists from Libraries, I have been fighting the Strike Monster with sacrificial Units just long enough to capture the odd Minor Nation City with stacks of Chariots, only to allow said Cities to get recaptured to avoid having to pay for their Maintenance.

Stonehenge went to Louis, and I've managed to capture and lose a City in which he settled a Great Prophet; it will be a City worth recapturing in the future. The Oracle went to Elizabeth early on; it's not like I had the techs required to compete with her. I did not even have the techs for The Great Lighthouse, which Augustus claimed. Other than briefly owning a City that contained a settled Great Prophet, I have no chance of earning Great People for quite some time.

I'll need another week to finish the game, so, I'd love a one-week submission deadline extension.

Otherwise, I'd consider moving on to the next game, but we don't seem to have one. Is there some plan to end the series at Game #250?

On an unrelated note, did this website switch its SSL Certificate to one from Let's Encrypt?
 
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Very nice tip!

My experience differed significantly. I had a few Chariots watching Roman lands, but I'd lost some of them to Strikes and Augustus got Iron connected. I only clued in when I saw 3 Praetorians appear on the same turn as each other! They were built in 3 different Cities, of course. My remaining Chariots in Roman lands retreated to the Iron, which was also conveniently to the location of the Horse Resource, then played a game of Pillage-and-Stay-Close, while my 1 Archer + 1 Axeman combo played a game of cat-and-mouse with a stack of 2 Praetorians + 6 Archers from Augustus that kept wanting to come toward my Gems City through what was probably a Mountain Peak Pass that had been set up by MarleysGh0st. Of course, the stack retreated to head the long-way-around when I went to the Hills + Forest square, and then would come back to the short pass when I retreated, allowing me to play that game indefinitely.

I'm sure that you're past that decision point now, but:
It's a useful Wonder to self-build if you are low on Food Resources and you want to spawn a Golden Age with your first or second Great Person, since you will get to your next Great Person relatively quickly, but the Great Person won't likely be a coveted early Great Scientist or early Great Engineer.

It's a useful Wonder to build yourself if you plan to grow the City Size of the City that built it to greater than Size 10, when the bonuses to Foreign Trade Routes can start to stack up.

It's a useful Wonder to let an AI build if you plan to generate a Great Merchant, as you can often get additional Trade Mission Gold from that City relative to other AI Cities.

You cannot perform diplomacy with a Minor Nation and you are locked into a war with the Minor Nation. While you are at war with any AI, be it a Civ or a Minor Nation, the number of Cities that the AI is known to have is limited to the count of Cities that you have revealed on the map, with a value of 1 being the lowest number possible. Note that I haven't tested to see if the number might go down to 0 as a minimum value in a game where "Complete Kills" is enabled and where a player would no longer need a minimum of 1 City (after having settled at least 1 City) to remain alive in the game. Otherwise, you have that minimum of 1 City being required to be alive in the game being listed on the Scoreboard (and AIs plus Minor Nations will settle on the first turn, unless completely blocked from settling, and thus they'll practically always have 1 City at a minimum).

When you are not at war, you have the ability to have a diplomatic talk with a Civ's AI Leader, and thus the Hall of Fame Mod aka the BUFFY Mod will tell you a summary of how many Cities that Civ has, since you could count the amount yourself just by going to the diplomacy screen with an AI. Even in the early game, you can press Ctrl + click on a Leader's Name, when you have nothing to trade, to get this information, and thus you aren't gaining any additional information from the Mod in this regard, but are just getting a convenient tool to summarize the information for you.

The same is true with how you could click on a Leader's Name and ask them what they think about other Leaders... instead, we have the F4 screens to summarize this information for us. Of course, in a game with Minor Nation, you won't see this information summarized, and you can actually talk with Elizabeth to ask what she thinks of the Minor Nations, but this information is probably just for fun, as Elizabeth is unable to interact diplomatically with the Minor Nations.


As for me, I took the Challenger saved game. I took LowtherCastle's implied advice and went a bit west with the Settler, to stick by the Rivers. It was an important choice, in hindsight, as it allowed me to build several Riverside Cottages.

As a side note to LowtherCastle, I'd still take a Deer on a River in place of a Deer with a Forest--I agree that the Forest would be preferred for building your first Worker/Settler, but later in the game, you often feel happy enough with getting a Deer without a Forest but on a River, which can happen regularly on a Great Plains map. Since a Forest growing on a Riverside Deer square would make the +1 Commerce from the River go away, it is one of those scenarios where you often just give up on waiting for a Forest to grow and plop a Camp down, knowing that once the Camp has been placed, a Forest won't be able to grow on that square.

I had hoped to find Copper on the starting Plains River square, thinking that we'd have Iron far away and would have to use Copper for our Gallic Warriors. Plains, instead of Grassland, on the starting square, would have made up for the fact that the Mapmaker had (hopefully) put Copper underneath of our Settler, as settling on Copper would not have completed "wasted" the square gains from the Resource, as we would have still earned an extra Hammer if the square had been a Plains square. Yet, I did not feel that I would have time to get to Bronze Working before the other Worker techs and thus I chose the more conservative route of teching Archery first, then Worker techs.

Warriors are great for fog-busting in most other games. With 3 Minor Nations, fog-busting wouldn't be of much help, and the Units from the Minor Nations would likely also inadvertently help with fog-busting. Therefore, I wanted Units that had a chance to collect Promotions and even Great General Points when fighting Minor Nations' Units, without the high-risk of falling to pieces like Warriors often give us.

I expanded too quickly, getting to 6 Cities, thinking that 2 Gold Resources, 1 Gems Resource, 1 Silver Resource, and 2 Fur Resources would help to pay the bills. They were far from sufficient.

The greatest challenge was the economy. By 1 AD, I had limped my way to Pottery and have been building Cottages on every available square, possible:
Chopping GH Riv Forests and putting Cottages on them, putting Cottages on Plains squares without Rivers, on Grassland flatland or Hills without Rivers; anywhere and everywhere that I can afford to do so, without going as insane as Cottaging over my Rice Resource.
I believe that it was the game in which I had begun working the most Cottage squares by 1 AD in any XOTM game that I have played.

Without Masonry for Duns or for Wonder Failure Gold, without Iron Working for Gallic Warriors, and without Writing for hiring Scientists from Libraries, I have been fighting the Strike Monster with sacrificial Units just long enough to capture the odd Minor Nation City with stacks of Chariots, only to allow said Cities to get recaptured to avoid having to pay for their Maintenance.

Stonehenge went to Louis, and I've managed to capture and lose a City in which he settled a Great Prophet; it will be a City worth recapturing in the future. The Oracle went to Elizabeth early on; it's not like I had the techs required to compete with her. I did not even have the techs for The Great Lighthouse, which Augustus claimed. Other than briefly owning a City that contained a settled Great Prophet, I have no chance of earning Great People for quite some time.

I'll need another week to finish the game, so, I'd love a one-week submission deadline extension.

Otherwise, I'd consider moving on to the next game, but we don't seem to have one. Is there some plan to end the series at Game #250?

On an unrelated note, did this website switch its SSL Certificate to one from Let's Encrypt?
Very interesting report.

I replayed the beginning a couple times and indeed lack of Praets was unusual. On the other hand, I did harass and choke Rome a lot in the submitted game, including pillage even all the roads, so that may be the reason. Maybe I also mis-remember if the actually connected Iron, there was definitely a mine there, but maybe no road? Mine was contender save, which prolly also contributed.
 
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