[BTS] BOTM 261: Queen Victoria, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD

[DynamicSpirit]

BOTM 261: Queen Victoria, Immortal - First Spoiler - 1AD

Use this thread to tell us what happened in your game, up to 1AD. Where did you settle in the end? One of the spots being pored over in the game announcement thread, or somewhere else? What strategy have you followed? Any wonders?

Reading Requirements
If you are participating in BOTM 261, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless EITHER

• You have reached at least 1 AD in your game, OR
• You have submitted your entry

Posting Restrictions

• Do not disclose ANY events or information gained post 1 AD.
• Do not reveal your final result if that happened after 1 AD.
• Do not discuss the location of resources that may not show up before 1 AD (Iron is OK, coal and oil are not)
• Do not post any savegame file from the game. Discussions and screenshots are fine but not actual games

 

[Fine_Distinction]

After all this discussions where to settle I was really excited to try it immediately. Assuming that there is nothing extra below the marble, my conclusion from the sandboxing was that SIP is the way to go, so that is what I did.

I do not have much hopes of finishing this game - conquering AIs hoping from island to island seems like so much work (more small maps will be great) - so I made a quick play through to 1AD and may replay the start a couple times and post my results as a shadow game.

Generally, I am not sure how to play on the Immortal level, it normally starts well, and then somebody attacks with a prevailing force

Generally, I am not doing shabby: I am at 49 pop at 1AD and techs are up to the Civil Service. On the other hand, I kinda accidentally (played Asoka before and it was after midnight, forgot that I am not Spiritual as Victoria) got stuck in Caste System most of the game (I irrationally hate anarchy turns when switching civs). My cities seemed to grow very low under caste and I really missed opportunity to whip things, so I am tempted to replay the beginnings just to see (but so far just playing on). But caste was also pretty nice to solve problems with production (+1H from workshops).

But generally, on Immortal+ I struggle with diplo. The evil mapmaker () put us here next to the two warmongers that can plot at pleased ... What we are supposed to do in such diplo situation? Bribe one on another? It is not even possible since they did not meet each other yet

The only thing I could do is to bribe them on a weaker civ - but this way they would become even stronger and would take my easiest victim. Or I do it just to get them to friendly and worry about the rest later?

In my game, they also have different religions - such a pity they have not met (yet) I was even contemplating giving them techs to facilitate meeting - does it work?

Anyway, with two certified warmongers nearby and of different religion, my option seem dire - I can probably get one of them to really like me (Friendly) by switching to his religion, but then probably the other one would attack me? And since they don't know each other, my new "friend" will not join the war?

I initially had a pretty big lead on tech, and I could bribe some AIs to fight each other - should I just do it to wreak havoc? or can it backfire? I thought it was especially problematic to encourage bigger AIs to fight their weaker neighbors ...

 

[nocho]

I also played rather quickly up to 1AD in one go, maybe too quickly, but for now I'm not unhappy with the situation.

After all the deliberations I also opted for SIP. I went with Agri, Sailing, Wheel, Mysticism and Masonry first. Second city went at corn/stone with the other gold second ring, so that came online soon enough. With the stone I started building Stonehenge in York, was gambling on fail gold but actually finished it 2 turns before the GLH in London. Sort of accidentally went wonderhogging, of course having both marble and stone helped quite a bit. Went straight Oracle when I got PH and took Metal Casting, best tech available at that moment and also good for triremes as barb galleys appeared quite soon. Also, Colossus, which was built in York. Finally, I also got the Great Library in London.

Meanwhile, I've expanded to 10 cities, of which 3 on islands, with 54 pop. I met 4 out of 6 AIs. Monty was willing to trade gems, while Shaka has traded ivory and sugar, so the bad boys are maintaining my population happy so far. Of course forges also help, having the threesome of gold/silver/gems. I did go for Monarchy soonish but actually haven't revolted it to it yet as there isn't the need. I will revolt as soons as I get CS which I just started on. Somehow I didn't prioritize that but went for Calendar (trying for the MoM) and Music first. Sitting on the GA and a GM still.

Tech is humming along nicely enough at 164bpt sustainable. The only horses I've seen are in Zulu territory, so that's a bit of a complicating factor for future violent expansion. Might have to get those first with medieval units before conquering the rest, if that indeed will be the course of action.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

I took the Adventurer save. In order to get the worker mining the gold immediately, I settled 1W. I finished the GLH in 1800 BC and the Colossus in 325 BC, and Moai Statues in 1 AD. I have 7 cities, with another settler ready to build one more. Notice how, despite the Adventurer advantages, I have fewer cities and fewer wonders than nocho.

The world has been peaceful so far. Monty has been plotting for a while. I naturally assumed I'd be his target, but Sitting Bull is now his worst enemy. Napoleon is also plotting against someone, but I don't even know where he is, yet.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

I took the Adventurer save. In order to get the worker mining the gold immediately, I settled 1W. I finished the GLH in 1800 BC and the Colossus in 325 BC, and Moai Statues in 1 AD. I have 7 cities, with another settler ready to build one more. Notice how, despite the Adventurer advantages, I have fewer cities and fewer wonders than nocho.

The world has been peaceful so far. Monty has been plotting for a while. I naturally assumed I'd be his target, but Sitting Bull is now his worst enemy. Napoleon is also plotting against someone, but I don't even know where he is, yet.

I have the same diplo situation, 9 cities and 49 pop, but I "cheated" a bit, I mean I got +9 pop from the Hanging Gardens.

I thought I am doing good on the science front, not as good on pop, but is seems to be otherwise. My pop is almost that of @nocho's - which is rare for me (again, HG helped a lot here). But science is much lower, only 137bpt sustainable (-1gpt), but I can get to 213bpt deficit, and will have a second GP (likely a scientist), born in 2T.

Wonders: Stonehenge, GLH, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens,

Other than that, I played beginning like @nocho, SIP and 2nd city to work stone& gold. I was playing this game just after Asoka both, so I thought I am spiritual somehow and got into caste for a bit and then stayed way too long just to avoid anarchy. I also got too greed with Hanging Gardens population gain - I had a settler ready to go to an island, but then I saw foreign culture creeping up and was not sure if I can get this city settled in time for HG - and decided do settled a very crappy ice city just to get this +1 pop

OTOH, having Pyramids is fun, , that I think was a very good decision, especially in the GLH city, it is a nice mini-GPP farm with good GPP points. Was planning to add Colossus to this mix, but lost oracle (planned for MC) narrowly first, and then Colossus not so narrowly due to aforementioned being in caste, building a forge was taking forever ....

 

[Powerfaker]

SIP, Grow to size 4 as planned. Then 2nd city on the stone, didn't want to cannibalize on the capital's corn right away, it still needed to grow, Also the capital would pop borders again to get the plains gold so I could place the 3rd city a tile further away from it and capture crab 2nd ring.
Tech went Agri - Wheel - Sailing - Pottery - Myst - Bronze - Masonry - Poly/PH/Monarchy
Sailing and Pottery to prep LH and Gran whip into GLH, so Bronze before Masonry. Got GLH in time 1560BC. Then Oracle => MC 1280BC and Colossus 725BC.

With Colossus and HR civic you know what happens, lots of 4 tiles worked.
I used a GM to bulb 80% of Civil Service. To my surprise I noticed this was possible, didn't know that. Only had to selftech Currency instead. CS was finished 525BC
At 700BC I was still at 4 cities. Form this point I started to hurry expansion a bit. Also adopted and spreaded the self-found Confu around.
Tech moved on to Paper and towards + included 30% of Engineering. Now busy securing Music in 3 or 4T, since the next best techer, Monty (!), got Literature.
I got maps from Shaka uncovering much of Inca as well and maps from SittingBull. Not enough for circumnavigation, which I suspect is not possible without caravels. Shaka and Napoleon only have 2 cities. Shaka built most of the wonders that I don't have.

At 1AD 9 cities / 52pop (2 very recent island cities, still size 1)
Doing 250 at break even (no cottages, the first 4 Libraries installed around 100BC)

Funny how I'm teching much better with Vicky on immortal on an island than with Asoka on Noble with a (flood plain) river paradise..... while having significant lesser pop too. To be honest I don't understand the dislike there seems to be about working coastal tiles. Obviously 4 is exorbitant, but I count even 2 as still oke. The really nice part is that it doesn't cost worker turns. I have 3 workers this game and I'm working ahead placing workshops here and there.

Edit: by the way I was a bit mislead by the desert river tile that i thought was a flood plain .......(stone/corn location)

 

[LowtherCastle]

I settled on the Marble. Missed GLH by a few turns and it’s faaaar away. Missed on the Colossus even though I slingshot MW. Sigh. Monty got Colossus so that’s ok. We’ll see how things go if I find time to finish.

 

[Frederiksberg]

After some sand boxing I realized that it was possible to do a timely build of the GLH in the second city so I settled on the marble. Built worker and then settler right out of the gate while researching Agri - Sailing. When the capital expanded borders I saw the stone and sent the warrior to explore and lo-and-behold there was a food resource at the stone site. Second city went on top of stone and it easily built the GLH in 1760 BC. Got both gold mines working early so tech is advancing at a good pace. Oracled CoL at 1600 BC to get Confu but missed the Colossus by a handful of turns. Monty has been in war prep mode for a long time but hasn't acted on it.

@1AD I have 9 cities and 52 pop. Research is up to Music and CS, and Machinery is due in two turns. Currently building cats and galleys with the intention of supplementing with some maces. Target is Shaka since Monty already has longbows.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Shaka and Napoleon only have 2 cities.

Both only 2 cities - how?!?

I stayed on my island and you had 2 island cities, which probably squeezed AI a bit, but S&N had 9 more cities in my game at 1AD

 

[ariosto]

Settled on the marble. Second city went 3N, near fish, chopped WB and started to build GLH. The capital got both golds online rather quickly and then built Settler-Worker-Settler-Oracle-Library-Settler x5.
Got MC from Oracle on T55. But I missed GLH - Bismark completed it on T67 (1320 BC) - 3 turns faster than me . I finished the Colossus soon after, though.
GLH on this map is nuts - with 10 cities, it gives you about 60 cpt.
At 1AD I have 10 cities (2 island ones), 48 pop, 200 bpt at break even, 148 CY and 69 MFG. Techwise I am at Music, CS, MC, Monarchy and Paper will come next turn.

Spoiler Damn Monty :

He basically slowed down by CS date for two turns (I got it on T101) . So he will die first.

Spoiler Why we haven't met? :

I loaded out an axe in Tlatelolco and saw Napoleon WB. But for some reason we met only on the next turn.

Spoiler :

Monty build fort on top of gems instead of mining them

 

[ariosto]

Shaka and Napoleon only have 2 cities. Shaka built most of the wonders that I don't have.

That's really unusual, I must say. In my game Shaka founded 9 cities. He even managed to colonize Inca's home island.

To be honest I don't understand the dislike there seems to be about working coastal tiles. Obviously 4 is exorbitant, but I count even 2 as still oke

I don't like working nonFIN coast. Usually I prefer to whip a worker and work better tiles - if you have ones of course. This map is very tight on tiles though.

 

[Powerfaker]

Shaka and Napoleon only have 2 cities

Yeah, I don't know how this happens.
It's not me doing anything for sure ...... although the AI are cheaters, the only thing I can think of is that maybe my techrate forces them into conflicting decisionmaking. It happens a lot much further in the game that the development of some AI seem to come to a standstill when you, the player, progress very fast.
Barbs can delay settlement for ages. Anyway it's weird.

I don't like working nonFIN coast. Usually I prefer to whip a worker and work better tiles - if you have ones of course. This map is very tight on tiles though

I consider those handy filler tiles. In situations where your workers have other things to do, the inland is plains or tundra, cut off from irrigation, too late to develop cottages because workshops are coming soon etc etc. With a crappy inland I will still settle such a place if there's a food resource and a set of coastal tiles to work. Some of these places grow quite strong once you have state property. It's always good to have population available for when you want to raise (whip) an army.


I edited my 1AD city count, it was 9 not 10 (oops, nasty mistake)

 

[Frederiksberg]

@ariosto: During my sandbox testing I found that the only way to build GLH fast enough in the second city was by going worker-settler right away in the marble capital. And research Agri-Sailing so that the second city could build wb-lighthouse-GLH. In the game I was lucky to find a better second city at the stone/corn so I could even save the wb build.

 

[ariosto]

During my sandbox testing I found that the only way to build GLH fast enough in the second city was by going worker-settler right away in the marble capital

Yeah, this is smart. The idea of building a settler on size 1 didn't come to mind. I will replay start after submission to see, how it plays out. In fact, I believe I could have built it by T65 if I played more carefully - I will check this out too. I didn't use sandbox - maybe I should have tested how to build GLH faster.

Actually, I didn't expect that GLH would be THAT good. My mindset was that you would get Oracle + Colossus OR GLH. And I decided that I needed the former more, so I settled on marble. Actually, I thought that losing Oracle on turn 55 was more likely than missing GLH on turn 70.

I discovered stone city as well, but I still decided to build GLH 3N of the capital. The reason was that lighthouse doesn't do anything in stone city - it's just wasted hammers. But it provides a lot of value in the fish city.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Yeah, I don't know how this happens.
It's not me doing anything for sure ...... although the AI are cheaters, the only thing I can think of is that maybe my techrate forces them into conflicting decisionmaking. It happens a lot much further in the game that the development of some AI seem to come to a standstill when you, the player, progress very fast.
Barbs can delay settlement for ages. Anyway it's weird

I think you might trigger some kind of butterfly effect with your early expansion, blocking Shaka of his preferred path? And pushing Monty towards Napoleon? I saw something like this only once, in another island map GOTM (I think we were Viking) when I blocked Stalin early by settling in a nice place on his island, and he kept walking the settler he build in circles on that island for centuries, instead of hopping on another one ... by in mine and somebody else's game, Shaka is already settling on the Incan island by 1AD!

I was planning to replay the beginning of this GOTM couple of times anyway, so far I am holding off in case I decide to submit, but will be fascinating to see if playing @Powerfaker opening makes Shaka settle less cities?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

[/SPOILER]

Spoiler :

Monty build fort on top of gems instead of mining them
View attachment 677243

That's amusing! Just speculating, but I wonder if the gems were in cultural borders but not in any BFC before Monty put the size 1 city next to them? That would explain the fort as the AI tends to build them to link resources outside of BFC's (the AI being generally too dumb to realise when a mine would work better regardless).

 

[Frederiksberg]

Yeah, this is smart. The idea of building a settler on size 1 didn't come to mind. I will replay start after submission to see, how it plays out. In fact, I believe I could have built it by T65 if I played more carefully - I will check this out too. I didn't use sandbox - maybe I should have tested how to build GLH faster.

Actually, I didn't expect that GLH would be THAT good. My mindset was that you would get Oracle + Colossus OR GLH. And I decided that I needed the former more, so I settled on marble. Actually, I thought that losing Oracle on turn 55 was more likely than missing GLH on turn 70.

I discovered stone city as well, but I still decided to build GLH 3N of the capital. The reason was that lighthouse doesn't do anything in stone city - it's just wasted hammers. But it provides a lot of value in the fish city.

I calculated that with a few accessible islands, the GLH would be worth around 40 gpt even without any foreign trade routes. That's why I was willing to spend hammers on a lighthouse in the stone city. On this type of map the GLH will on average be built faster because all capitals are going to be coastal.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

I calculated that with a few accessible islands, the GLH would be worth around 40 gpt even without any foreign trade routes. That's why I was willing to spend hammers on a lighthouse in the stone city. On this type of map the GLH will on average be built faster because all capitals are going to be coastal.

Yeah, I did not have much experience plaing island maps, but GLH was huge this game, I wish I prepared better for it.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I decided to take the risk and settle on the marble. After moving my settler it became clear my capital with only one food resource would be one that flames out early – compared to the much better long term of settling 1W. Hopefully I can get enough of a head start from the gold and hammers to make it worth it!

I settled my second city on top of the stone, another good early city with weak long term prospects. With stone and marble online early I was able to try for some early wonders.

My third city went up near the starting fish with the hope of going for GLH.

I went for Judaism and built Stonehenge and Oracle in the stone city. These gave me an earlyish Great Prophet who built the Temple of Solomon.

I got a very late GLH but missed out on Colossus which was a setback. I built Pyramids in my capital which was a nice surprise!

I struggled with getting the right units into the right places – probably because of my wonderlust. Despite the island start somehow I still managed to lose 3 warriors to barbs/animals – each with 50/50 odds. I also underestimated the havoc caused by barb galleys… when 2 spawned at each side of my island fog I thought there was a grace period before they would enter borders. Nope. They beelined my seafood and I lost 3 x nets because my galleys were out of position.

My last problem was not getting exploring work boats out fast enough and I spent a very long time not knowing what was going on beyond the closed borders of the Annoyed Hindu Shaka and the Annoyed Buddist Montezuma. I definitely counted the cost of going Judaism and Organised Religion. The tech path for Oracle also meant my tech trading was non-existent early on.

This combination of factors meant I had very little going on diplomatically; no real friends, no foreign trade routes - despite at least knowing that Zulu/Aztec/Inca/Germany exist.

By 1 AD I had 8 cities and 35 pop, with two tiny cities offshore. One was on Monty’s land on top of his copper hill, and one was on the 3-tile island with a fish towards Shaka.

I’m pretty new to using the Buffy mod so didn’t realise at the time that both of my warmonger neighbours were plotting. On going back to look at my 1AD save to write this spoiler I can see the ominous red fists, which will help give context to my post-1AD period…

 

[ariosto]

That's amusing! Just speculating, but I wonder if the gems were in cultural borders but not in any BFC before Monty put the size 1 city next to them?

That's probably what happened.

I think you might trigger some kind of butterfly effect with your early expansion, blocking Shaka of his preferred path?

Could it be that Shaka started to plot early? So he built big army instead of settlers and crippled himself. I think, that's the reason why Napoleon is so backwards in my game.

I got a very late GLH

As someone who missed GLH I have to ask - when did you finish it?

Despite the island start somehow I still managed to lose 3 warriors to barbs/animals – each with 50/50 odds

Could be worse. I lost five warriors to barbs. In fact, that's probably my biggest mismanagement in the early game. But yeah, barb galleys are PITA. I still have 3 warriors sitting outside of my territory to fogbust coast.

Annoyed Buddist Montezuma. I definitely counted the cost of going Judaism...
...By 1 AD I had 8 cities and 35 pop, with two tiny cities offshore. One was on Monty’s land on top of his copper hill

You are a brave person, I have to admit